Before plastic.

[Anonymous]

When I was a kid, someone gave me an old diecast O gauge steam engine set. It doesn't run anymore but I still have it. I seem to remember a bakelite diesel shell someone had when I was a kid too. It was old and in bad shape, but I remember looking it over and wonder what it was made of.

trainluver1

[Anonymous]

Tatans, all of the above is good information. Noteworthy of that period was a HO guage Lionel die casting (Aluminum and ZinK?) of a J3a Hudson, N.Y.Central. It was outstanding as were the "lost wax" brass castings by Bowser (Mikado and Mountain). Varney, Mantua, English, Penn-Line, Pennsylvania Scale Models, Model Diecasting and Cary Locomotive all made die casts of various quality and detail. Personally, I liked the "cleaner" Cary diesel castings and Bowser steam "detail." Hobbytown of Boston also made some decent EMD. E-6, E-7 (A &B) and Alco PA-1(A &B) castings. The "Cary" EMD, E-6 and E-7 were made for the Athearn plastic EMD E-8 motor/drive frames, both A units and B units. The Pittman d.c. 70's and 90's open frame motors were largely used and the worm gear was of brass. They all had pulling power and were smooth in long consists. The "white metal" gear boxes and steel gears were "touchy" and needed a lot of "breaking-in." John A English made an Alco FA-1 with all wheels powered via a neoprene drive shaft (front truck to rear) that could pull walls down when it was finally broken-in (weeks of running). This era of HO has been called "primative" and "crude" by many plastic devotees who demure from drilling, tapping, soldering or even painting. True, the older metal and wood kits weren't for everyone as evidenced by the wide variation in quality from "all thumbs" to "artisan." Brunton's statement: "...scale modelers would probably equate those who don't at least build from kits with tin-platers of their own era" is accurate. The difference between "Craftsman" and "Hobbyist" has not changed and by definition, it never will.

[West Coast S]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Autobus Prime

Dear folks:

I have a pile of old Model Craftsman magazines (forerunner to RMC) from
the mid '30s, back when they covered all kinds of models, not just trains. I did
not know that Lionel's 700E introduced zinc die casting to model railroading,
but it makes sense, since most locomotive kits appear to be brass or bronze.
(Incidentally, if you adjust for inflation, only today are prices beginning to
approach the cost of 1930's scale models. )

It seems to me that the people back then who liked operating more than
building would generally take tinplate equipment and modify it for a better
appearance. Some very nice models were built this way, and they had few
reservations about gluing wood, card, or any sort of detail on to a tinplate
locomotive. (We don't seem to see people mixing materials very much.
What if somebody were to scratchbuild a steam locomotive, using brass
or styrene where each would work better?)

Eric La Nal had a number of articles, too, where he would use various
ingenious tricks to build a superstructure of wood and cardboard and adapt
it to (sometimes tinplate) HO mechanisms. These are still worth reading
today, I think. He had a '20% effort for an 80% result' attitude that we seem
to be lacking these days.

Cordially yours,
A. P.

I'm currently working on three Zimac casting Mogul kits based upon the Rix line that were first offered in the 1953. As was typical of the day, detail is lacking as is a specific prototype. I do mix materials to obtain a finshed product, example I had to relocate a dome, this was done by drilling around the base to remove..

I cleaned up the opening and filled the hole with a epoxy coated dowel that was then sanded to shape, the removed dome was reshaped, excess material removed and reinstalled in its new location. The supplied cabs are incorrect for my use, so new ones were constructed from Styrene . I also use expoy or ACC coated paper to simulate boiler jacketing.

The kit supplied cylinder castings were reshaped and a sheet metal jacket simulated using two strips of common paper permerated with ACC. Nut & bolt castings added along with other details and a mold made. All finished products are cast in low-temp-alloy.

Those that frequent the outer limits must do without that which the popular scales take for granted.

[Autobus Prime]

Dear folks:

I have a pile of old Model Craftsman magazines (forerunner to RMC) from
the mid '30s, back when they covered all kinds of models, not just trains. I did
not know that Lionel's 700E introduced zinc die casting to model railroading,
but it makes sense, since most locomotive kits appear to be brass or bronze.
(Incidentally, if you adjust for inflation, only today are prices beginning to
approach the cost of 1930's scale models. )

It seems to me that the people back then who liked operating more than
building would generally take tinplate equipment and modify it for a better
appearance. Some very nice models were built this way, and they had few
reservations about gluing wood, card, or any sort of detail on to a tinplate
locomotive. (We don't seem to see people mixing materials very much.
What if somebody were to scratchbuild a steam locomotive, using brass
or styrene where each would work better?)

Eric La Nal had a number of articles, too, where he would use various
ingenious tricks to build a superstructure of wood and cardboard and adapt
it to (sometimes tinplate) HO mechanisms. These are still worth reading
today, I think. He had a '20% effort for an 80% result' attitude that we seem
to be lacking these days.

Cordially yours,
A. P.

[Pruitt]

Don't forget also that in the 40s to the 60s (and later) there was a lot more scratchbuilding going on than there is now (on a per capita basis). In the 50s there was a big hullabaloo about "shake the box" kits and the decline of real modeling (at least a lot of controversy about it showed up in MR's RPO of those days). I wonder what those folks would think about commercially available finished buildings, rolling stock, etc.? I'm thinking the scale modelers would probably equate those who don't at least build from kits with the tin-platers of their own era.

[edkowal]

As Hal Carstens has mentioned on a number of occasions, there were printed paper sides for rolling stock, and tinplate for locomotives. The latter actually did mean tinplate. That is, modelers cut up tin cans, flattened them and made locomotives out of them.

Manufacturers did more or less the same thing at times. Walthers at one time had an extensive line of passenger car kits made from sheet metal stock. You can still find some of these kits at hobby meets.

I also remember an article or two about using paper and glue to form tapered courses on boilers. And there was an amazing series of articles, about once a month, by Bill Schopp ( I may not have the spelling right ) in RMC in the 60's modifying one brass engine to make another. Brass bashing on a truly monumental scale. I think there was one article where the guy used parts from three different brass engines to make a model of some entirely different ! Not necessarilly cost effective, but he got what he was looking for. Needless to say, he had a parts bin totally unlike anybody else.

Folks also hired custom builders to make an engine for them. Although this still occurs, it doesn't happen as often. There were quite a number of these men back in the past, and their work is now legendary in the O scale community. British modelling still has a number of custom builders. In fact, now that I think of it, it's probable that the American modeling scene years ago strongly resembles the British scene now in this respect. People used simple materials a lot more, and built things from the ground up. This is by no means a criticism of British modelling at the present time. They've got the fancy, modern whiz - bang stuff that we've got. Some of the best work I've ever seen on the internet has been done by British model builders.

Most of this info comes from reading, since I only started in the late 1960's. Brass and plastic were dominant then, although Zamacand even sand castings were still being used. Tyco (Mantua) Bowser and Model Die Casting were the primary sources of Zamac steamers that I knew of at that time.

[orsonroy]

Don't forget the early Bowser and Cary sand cast BRONZE boilers on pot metal (white metal, Zamac, etc) engines.

So lets's see:
Plastic Age
Bakelite Age
Brass Age
Zamac Age
Bronze Age
Tin Age

All we're missing is a Flint Age and a Wicker Age, and we've got the whole history of model railroading!

[ben10ben]

Zamac casting was perfected after much research by Lionel in the early 1940s. Lionel introduced the all die-cast 700E in 1937, which to this day suffers horribly from growing and disintegration. Most of the bugs had been worked out by the '50s, when Zamac became predominate in locomotives, and thermoplastic in cars(at least with Lionel). Even so, most of my postwar Lionel and American Flyer pieces are covered in "zinc warts", which don't really affect the integrity, but don't look all that good.

Before thermoplastics became common, cheap, and relatively non-flammable, there were also instances of pieces being made out of Bakelite. I'm not sure if any HO was, but Lionel often used it for coal loads and sometimes car bodies. The 1950 Madison passenger cars are an example of this. Bakelite in model trains is not totally dead, as phenolic resins are often used in one form or another as insulating or binding materials within motors.

Then, before Zamac and Bakelite was tinplate, or formed pieces of tin-plated sheet steel welded or tabbed together and often painted bright, flashy colors. I've never seen tinplate HO, but it probably does exist in some way, shape, or form.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nickinwestwales

Hi -me again -CNJ-ZAMAC-heard the name,not familiar with the material,is it flat grey casting,--looks a bit like pewter,but less dense???? nick

Yup! And if it wasn't mixed just the right or contained impurities, the resulting casting warped horribly and crumbled to dust within a few years. AHM/H.O.Train Co.'s CNJ ten-wheeler camelback was probably the most famous example of "zamac-pest".

CNJ831

[nickinwestwales]

Hi -me again -CNJ-ZAMAC-heard the name,not familiar with the material,is it flat grey casting,--looks a bit like pewter,but less dense???? nick

[Anonymous]

I thought you meant "before credit cards"! [:D] - Cash!


Bob Boudreau

[CNJ831]

Just before and immediately following WWII major manufacturers like Varney and Mantua were offering locomotives made from a combination of brass and zamac parts. Custom built locomotives were totally of brass bar and sheet stock. In the first years of the 1950's one began to see an increasing number of diecast all zamac engines in both steam and diesel from the likes of MDC, Mantua, John English, Lindsay and others. Thereafter (mid to late 1950's) there was a steady transistion to plastic for the diesels, while steamers remained largely of zamac well into the 1960's and in some cases even much later. The late 1950's also saw the rise of large runs of imported brass locomotives.

The actual history of the evolution materials employed is far more complex than suggested above but this is nevertheless correct in an overall sense.

CNJ831

[nickinwestwales]

I seem to remember that over here ( U.K. ) we had Whitemetal kits,not sure what amalgam of other metals this was ( suspect lead and tin,but would welcome better info here ) but do recall that as much time spent on preparation as final assembly--check through the list of topics here over the last 2 or 3 weeks,I`m sure this subject has been approached from another direction,something like "poor quality of castings" or something similar. Other than that it was save up your bean tins and cut your own..... good luck with the search,nick

[prompter]

I think the answer is diecast... Seems to me MDC (Roundhouse) and Bowser were (and may still be) diecast metal boilers, etc.

Prompter

[tatans]

I've been wondering, before the advent of "plastic" locomotives (which I can't remember when they arrived) what was the alternative? of course there was brass, which was out of most peoples reach, just what locomotives were used in the 1940's to the 60's, the only locos I ever see from the 1950's are all brass, where are all these old locos and who made them and what were they made of? I know you must think "where has this guy been" but for the life of me I haven't seen an HO engine from the 50's, or again, maybe I have . Can someone enlighten me. There seems to be a gap from say, the 1950's to the "newer" upscale plastic locos, Was plastic introduced as an alternative to brass? or to fill another niche?