Autobus Prime wrote: TomDiehl wrote: wjstix wrote:That's interesting Tom, I didn't know that about the 70's. (I started with a Tyco HO set for Xmas 1971 as a 'scale modeller', I had American Flyer before that.) John Tyler used to have an ad in MR each month years ago where he did sort of a little editorial about model railroading which usually ended up mentioning some Tyco product IIRC.On the diesels, you can tell the before and after (takeover by Consolidated Foods) models. Look at the bottom of the locomotive, particularly at the plate between the wheels on the power truck. If the plate is metal, it's one of the older, better quality motor units, called the MU-2 motor. If it's a plastic plate, it's one of the 40 hour locos mentioned above. Like I said above, I still have several of the older ones running on my layout. Remember, the brass pickup wheels do still require periodic cleaning, just like the old days.TD:What complicates this a little is the "Deluxe F7", equipped with a reissued MU-2 (unsure what if any changes were made at this time). I believe the plastic gimbal may have been new. Were all MU-2's pinned or screwed to the shell?http://tycotrain.tripod.com/tycotrains/id86.html
TomDiehl wrote: wjstix wrote:That's interesting Tom, I didn't know that about the 70's. (I started with a Tyco HO set for Xmas 1971 as a 'scale modeller', I had American Flyer before that.) John Tyler used to have an ad in MR each month years ago where he did sort of a little editorial about model railroading which usually ended up mentioning some Tyco product IIRC.On the diesels, you can tell the before and after (takeover by Consolidated Foods) models. Look at the bottom of the locomotive, particularly at the plate between the wheels on the power truck. If the plate is metal, it's one of the older, better quality motor units, called the MU-2 motor. If it's a plastic plate, it's one of the 40 hour locos mentioned above. Like I said above, I still have several of the older ones running on my layout. Remember, the brass pickup wheels do still require periodic cleaning, just like the old days.
wjstix wrote:That's interesting Tom, I didn't know that about the 70's. (I started with a Tyco HO set for Xmas 1971 as a 'scale modeller', I had American Flyer before that.) John Tyler used to have an ad in MR each month years ago where he did sort of a little editorial about model railroading which usually ended up mentioning some Tyco product IIRC.
On the diesels, you can tell the before and after (takeover by Consolidated Foods) models. Look at the bottom of the locomotive, particularly at the plate between the wheels on the power truck. If the plate is metal, it's one of the older, better quality motor units, called the MU-2 motor. If it's a plastic plate, it's one of the 40 hour locos mentioned above. Like I said above, I still have several of the older ones running on my layout. Remember, the brass pickup wheels do still require periodic cleaning, just like the old days.
TD:
What complicates this a little is the "Deluxe F7", equipped with a reissued MU-2 (unsure what if any changes were made at this time). I believe the plastic gimbal may have been new. Were all MU-2's pinned or screwed to the shell?
http://tycotrain.tripod.com/tycotrains/id86.html
Depends on the vintage. I have a couple F9's from the mid 60's that have the mounting screwed to the shell, with a coil spring around the screw. They were a bit tricky to put back in as the motor magnet would pull the screws to it and away from the holes. Later versions had a steel plate riveted to the top of the gimbal and the tabs on this went into slots in the body. I don't have any with the plastic gimbal on the MU2 motor and don't recall seeing this combination. The only place I've seen the plastic gimbal is on the pancake motor. The MU2 was a pretty universal diesel motor unit, it was used in the F7/9, GP18/20, Plymouth Industrial, Alco C430, and maybe others I can't recall at the moment.
Retrofit would actually be pretty easy if you can find a good MU2 unit. The type that the motor unit snaps into can easily accept either the MU2 or the pancake, I don't believe there was much, if any, change to the body casting.
loathar wrote: armchair wrote: I got a set for xmas when I was about 8. I was so disapointed 'cause I thought I was getting a Lionel. I got a Marx instead of a Lionel. Same level of disappointment.
armchair wrote: I got a set for xmas when I was about 8. I was so disapointed 'cause I thought I was getting a Lionel.
I got a Marx instead of a Lionel. Same level of disappointment.
I got my first trains, which I still have, in 1962 or '63, when I was 4 or 5 years old. I got a Marx HO set, but before I got to use it my Dad took the track and loco back, and exchanged them for an American Flyer 0-6-0, a Gilbert/AF industrial switcher, and Atlas brass track.
Since then, I've had just about every brand you can imagine, and I've never been disappointed. But there are some brands I have been happier with.
Rotor
Jake: How often does the train go by? Elwood: So often you won't even notice ...
Autobus Prime wrote:The pancake-motor-powertruck plan has significant good points:
I'm not buying your argument. My mind is made up and there's no changing it. As I said in past threads about train set quality locos, pancake motor locos are good for racing and nothing more. Gimme a two pancake motor locos, a double oval track, and I'll race 'em like slot cars.
I see how it could be designed to self destruct with the pancake motor, if you don't lube it, that gearing is going to wear thin pretty soon, teeth get mushed, buhbye...
I have a bachman N&W J 4-8-4...vewweweeeeee go the gears and its pancake motor...
I still want to get Bowser's mechanism for it. Plus I have their Gs-4, Bowser that baby too.
aloco wrote:Any loco with a pancake motor in it is junk, regardless of whose brand name is on it.
Believe it or not, there are actually some excellent products out there with pancake motors. The Marklin/Trix PA-1 diesel has a 4-wheel-drive pancake motor setup, and from what I read in the MR review, it's a great running engine. The old Lionel, Marx, and AF toy trains used pancake motors, and I've heard that the Marx motor is one of the most reliable ever built for trains. Although Rivarossi's AHM era stuff is considered "junk" by many people for some reason, the square ball-bearing and later can motors were excellent when tuned right. I don't have a single Athearn motor that runs better than a well tuned Rivarossi motor.
I'll agree the Tyco PT motor is a really cheap design, but even they can run fairly smooth if tuned right.
_________________________________________________________________
cwclark wrote: armchair wrote: This Tyco thread outta' rack up some miles.It already has racked up some miles i originally posted this thread over a year ago...LOL...chuck
armchair wrote: This Tyco thread outta' rack up some miles.
It already has racked up some miles i originally posted this thread over a year ago...LOL...chuck
cw:
Thread necromancy seems weirdly appropriate when vampire trucks are under discussion. BLAH!
dave9999 wrote:Wouldn't it be something if Tyco all of a sudden came out with a product that compared tosay P2K or Atlas? Are they even still in business? Dave
This reminds me of a certain store I work at for which I will not mention because others might like it-
For years the "bluelight special" was for items that were on clearance or on sale that the company or store wanted to get rid of quickly. About a year or two ago they came out with the "bluelight special" again, this time it being geared toward top of the line items that only that particular store chain carries. Its like you want people to see this product as something spectacular when for years "bluelight special" meant junk?
Go figure.
Modeling the N&W freelanced at the height of their steam era in HO.
Daniel G.
A true friend will not bail you out of jail...he will be sitting next to you saying "that was friggin awesome dude!" Tim...Modeling the NYC...is there any other?
CAZEPHYR wrote: dave9999 wrote:Wouldn't it be something if Tyco all of a sudden came out with a product that compared tosay P2K or Atlas? Are they even still in business? Dave Long gone!!! The TYCO name was always associated with cheap, sorry, inexpensive train sets sold in department stores and the quality and fidelity of their products was at the bottom of the heap.
Long gone!!!
The TYCO name was always associated with cheap, sorry, inexpensive train sets sold in department stores and the quality and fidelity of their products was at the bottom of the heap.
CAZ:
Not quite gone, though. Tyco is now a division of Mattel, not affiliated with companies that produce plastics and fraud.
Certainly not the bottom of the heap for their first 25 years or so, when Tyco was the RTR division of Mantua, which was a very progressive company at the time, with pioneering efforts in engineering-plastic parts, and excellent designs with replaceable bearings and enclosed gearboxes.
Read the earlier catalogs:http://www.hoseeker.net/mantuamiscellaneous.html
Why are so many people lacking knowledge on the history of this hobby? It's worth getting. The history is fascinating.
wjstix wrote: csmith9474 wrote: dave9999 wrote:Wouldn't it be something if Tyco all of a sudden came out with a product that compared tosay P2K or Atlas? Are they even still in business? DaveThere is a lot associated with the name, so it would take a while for a new Tyco product to gain credibility I would think. It is sort of like when Life Like started the P2K line, I still associated the Life Like name with an inferior product (same with Bachmann when they started the "Spectrum" line). Mantua was one of the top model rail manufacturers for years, their kits were standard fare on most HO railroads of the forties-fifties and later. John Allen used a modified Mantua 2-8-2 on the G&D for example. Tyco (from John TYler COmpany, Tyler was the owner of Mantua) was originally the same engines, only R-T-R. By the time I got in the hobby in 1971 Tyco had become the cheapo "trainset" line of Mantua, I'm not sure if Mantua even sold things under the Mantua name at that time. By the 1980's Mantua came back with some inproved models (new boilers for the 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 that looked more like USRA engines) and some new models (like the 2-6-6-2 and 4-4-2) that by the later 80's included can motors and enclosed gearboxes and ran quite well. They also offered retro-fit kits for installing can motors in older steam engines that worked well too. Mantua was sold to Model Power maybe 10 years ago(?) and now has some products being reissued under the Model Power / Mantua Classic name. AFAIK nothing has been produced under the Tyco name for many years, I think even before the sale Mantua had quit making Tyco products.
csmith9474 wrote: dave9999 wrote:Wouldn't it be something if Tyco all of a sudden came out with a product that compared tosay P2K or Atlas? Are they even still in business? DaveThere is a lot associated with the name, so it would take a while for a new Tyco product to gain credibility I would think. It is sort of like when Life Like started the P2K line, I still associated the Life Like name with an inferior product (same with Bachmann when they started the "Spectrum" line).
There is a lot associated with the name, so it would take a while for a new Tyco product to gain credibility I would think. It is sort of like when Life Like started the P2K line, I still associated the Life Like name with an inferior product (same with Bachmann when they started the "Spectrum" line).
Mantua was one of the top model rail manufacturers for years, their kits were standard fare on most HO railroads of the forties-fifties and later. John Allen used a modified Mantua 2-8-2 on the G&D for example. Tyco (from John TYler COmpany, Tyler was the owner of Mantua) was originally the same engines, only R-T-R. By the time I got in the hobby in 1971 Tyco had become the cheapo "trainset" line of Mantua, I'm not sure if Mantua even sold things under the Mantua name at that time.
By the 1980's Mantua came back with some inproved models (new boilers for the 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 that looked more like USRA engines) and some new models (like the 2-6-6-2 and 4-4-2) that by the later 80's included can motors and enclosed gearboxes and ran quite well. They also offered retro-fit kits for installing can motors in older steam engines that worked well too.
Mantua was sold to Model Power maybe 10 years ago(?) and now has some products being reissued under the Model Power / Mantua Classic name. AFAIK nothing has been produced under the Tyco name for many years, I think even before the sale Mantua had quit making Tyco products.
A little gap in the history between your first and second paragraph:
By 1971, Consolidated Foods bought out the Tyco trains and race sets and started manufacturing them in Hong Kong. This is when the quality went down hill (Pancake motors). John Tyler's son worked for them for several years, then was given the job of selling off the old plant in Woodbury Heights, NJ. Rather than sell it, he bought it himself, bought back the molds for the steam engines, and started manufacturing them again under the Mantua name, in the original plant. This is the company that Model Power bought out.
My first train sets were Tyco, but that was back in the 60's, so they were better quality at a reasonable price. They were a better quality than the Athearns of the time (gear driven as opposed to Atheran's rubber band drive). I still have and run several of these Tyco engines and cars that I've had for 40+ years. The freight cars used a diecast zamac underframe that gave them a low center of gravity and enough weight to track well.
Unfortunately, most people remember the poor quality of the Consolidated Foods era, but the toy/model industry wasn't the only one experiencing the management attitude of "make it cheap and make a quick profit, tomorrow be damed."
aloco wrote: Any loco with a pancake motor in it is junk, regardless of whose brand name is on it. Tyco, Bachmann, Life-Like, and Model Power were all guilty of flogging off locos with pancake motors in them.
Any loco with a pancake motor in it is junk, regardless of whose brand name is on it. Tyco, Bachmann, Life-Like, and Model Power were all guilty of flogging off locos with pancake motors in them.
al:
Well, now, I can't agree with this. The execution may have been poor, but this doesn't make the concept bad. Besides, you need to compare the pancakes to some of the competition for the cheapie locos: the Varney-style LL drives, the various vertical-shaft drives with fixed and swiveling motor. Then you'll see just why this was considered an improvement.
The pancake-motor-powertruck plan has significant good points:
-Large diameter armature allows a small motor to have relatively high torque. Power is the product of torque and speed, so as you increase torque, you can decrease speed, which means the gear ratio can be lower and more efficient. This is a good thing in a power truck, where the motor has to be small, and every inch-ounce counts.
-Drive elements remain in constant relation to each other, with no need for flexible shafts or swiveling worm gears. We have all sorts of nice engineering plastics for cheap nowadays, but there was a time when we had little except nylon...and even with good material, cheap U-joints can be trouble. Torque reactions are all self-contained and the truck mounts need only contend with draft and buff.
-Most engineering can be the same through a wide range of models, simplifying assembly and parts inventory, particularly with Tyco's method of snapping the trucks directly into the shell.
-Spur gear drives don't lock up when shut off, as most worm drives do.
-Electrical supply can be partly or wholly self-contained in the truck unit. Again, assembly is simplified, and reliability can potentially increase, with fewer points where contact can break down.
Now, does the PT drive take advantage of some of these? Yes, but not all. If I was to make the PT drive good, here's what I would do:
-Make the gears stronger,and enclosed; make all bearings larger. Note that the LL pancake does this, with good effects. Say what we will about the LL truck, it doesn't strip gears, and it does have a decent service life. One cost is noise; the LL truck's gears seem coarser.
-Increase the diameter of the armature as much as possible, and surround the magnet segments with a steel ring for a closed flux circuit. Keep the armature pole gap as small as possible.
-Have a scale-length B truck with some reasonable compromise wheelbase. Forget the six-wheelers, or pick some compromise there and have two trucks. Yes, this would result in oddities like E7s with Hi-Ad trucks or Blombergs with a wheelbase a few inches off, but that would be easier to deal with than Truckula.
-Nickel-plate the wheels. Leave the primary pickup by solid axle contact, but add insulated wipers for secondary pickup from the insulated wheels, which would have to be metal as well. This of course would mean losing the tires (cry me a river) but with any luck our increased power should allow addition of a big cast weight to the mostly empty body shell.
-Redesign the mounting gimbals so the trucks can swivel freely and not cause derailments.
-Make superpower units available at extra cost, with 2 power trucks.
This could be a really good drive.
Well, if it weren't for that TYCO train set I got for Christmas years ago I wouldn't have gotten into model railroading.
You have to start somewhere..........
-G-
I still have a Tyco/Mantua shifter I bought second hand when I was a kid. It still runs well today.
On the other hand, the Tyco locos with the Mantua drive mechanism were better. They could take a beating and keep on running. I've played around with the GP20 and F7A, and they are built like tanks compared to the later stuff.
The Life Like toy trains I had as a kid still run actually, very well too, the Tycos, no, not at all. That big plastic drive gear was very prone to cracking here in Wisconsin where there are hot, wet summers and cold, dry winters, especially when you lived in a house without central AC growing up.
I remember when I was about 8, I really wanted the big Alco 630 that Tyco made, mainly because it was a big engine. There's still some fondness in my heart for that one (probably because I never got it as a kid). I'm planning on building a engine rebuilders on my layout with full interior that can be seen from open doors and windows. I thought it would be funny to have a couple of those in the shop, with the shop forces removing their Tyco innards and installing new parts like flywheels and a five pole motor.
Cheers!
~METRO
There is no substitute for quality. If a company makes the error in marketing a cheaply built product, as soon as the market (us) find out their product is crap, the news spreads fast. And, gaining back the trust to the market is not as easy as losing it in the first place.
As a wise old store owner once told us, " if you want nice fresh oats, you have to expect to pay a fair price. However, if you don't mind oats that have already been through the horse,.......well son ...that comes a lot cheaper".
mustanggt wrote:No wonder they're dead......... Makes me think differently of my chatanooga choo choo set.....
Tyco isnt dead, we get their clothes hangars in our store every day...
drum roll....
its true...
They got out of the model train business and went a different direction.
About like the Checker company that made those checker cars, made in Kalamazoo, MI, they quit making cars, but changed their business strategy.
I kinda believe it when they said their designed to break. Its your stuff you saw in the Sears Catalogue, the toy you played with for a short then threw it in the closet.
Of course, if it breaks on you that dissapoints the owner, now they wont get into the hobby.
Thanx for trying to kill the hobby...
Well, I will still get this 60 year old Winton 2-6-6-6 built and running...a lot of my stuff has lasteted beyond 40 hours..let alone years..maybe...have some Varney Diesels, they run!
To be the devil's advocate.... When you think of it, most train sets are purchased for Christmas. The kids are home for a couple of weeks. The set gets set up on the floor and run hard for two or three days. Then, it's taken up and moved to the bedroom and played with, on and off for the rest of Christmas break. After that, it's put up to "clean up the mess" and go back to school. Considering the attention span of kids, that's about all you can expect. In light of that, forty hours or so of running time is just about right. As mentioned, so long as it doesn't break down during Christmas break, it's done it's primary job and the parents aren't put, out so they don't care.
So the company has cut it's costs, maximized profit and sold a bunch. As far as they're concerned, the marketing was good.
And loathar, seek professional help for that urge to become a "Tyco Collector".
Tilden