Self Control or Moderaters

[Anonymous]

Could we have either one of these please?

There seems to be a sharp rise in the number of instances of people posting attacks against the ACLU and judiciary system.

Could members please exercise some self control to discuss the topic of this forum -- model railroading? I suspect you should easily be able to find political forums where such rants are more appropriate.

Failing that, could the moderators please do something to help keep the discussions on topic?

Thank you,
Maureen

[Anonymous]

Discussion of asbestos in MMRing is definitely on topic. Replies regarding the ACLU are not. This has been happening in other threads as well.
--Maureen

[Anonymous]

Maureen is absolutely correct. The interjection of opinions about this organization in at least three recent threads is out of place in this forum, in my opinion. It's simply displays a lack of self-control or maturity, as well as an obvious lack of understanding about the organization.

Self-moderation is always best, but occasionally we get the occasional member with no self-control.

Wayne

[MisterBeasley]

I dunno. I used to spend my forum-time on Flight Simulator. The posts almost never strayed from the topic, and the whole thing was, well, geeky and boring. People were rountinely chastised for posting graphics-card questions in the General Aviation forum. There were 30-40 forums, and I thought the whole thing was a little to Balkanized for my taste. The people here have real personalities, and in the interest of freedom of expression I think we should leave things the way they are. A few weeks back we had to throttle some bad language, and earlier this week there were a couple of uninformed "for sale" posts, but in general this is a good forum. "General Discussion" allows for more latitude than, say, "Layouts and layout building."

Exactly how the ACLU got involved, I don't know. That should have been about the safety aspects of push-pull commuter train operations, and generally the topic kept coming back to that, but I can't exactly plead innocent about the ACLU topic on the passing siding, either.

[Anonymous]

In general, this is a forum of decent people from a wide range of backgrounds & experiences sharing a common interest. Granted a little straying from the topic is acceptable and keeps things fresh, but what we sometimes see is the deliberate expression of an opinion clearly intended to espouse personal political beliefs, either to stir things up or simply out of a lack of simple courtesy to other members.

Except in the case of the occasional anti-social individual that needs direct moderation, self-moderation is always best. When you type something and then add, "maybe I'm getting too political," you probably are. Prudent people will think about it before hitting the "Submit" button. That's self-moderation.

Wayne

[davekelly]

Hmmm interesting. I think some straying off the subject is good. Helps one get to know the others (Mister Beasley - you and I have gone around a couple of times, but then we found out we both like subways!!!) and Muddy, we've seen some interesting topics stray a bit for sure. I think as long as folks stay civil, let's try to keep the moderaters out of it.

[Anonymous]

I was under the impression that these forums were for the discussion of model railroading. I don't have a problem with a few mild profanities now and again. Sometimes those words are needed for the power they evoke. I don't have a problem with an off hand joke about being able to locate porn on the internet because being a realist I know that all the persons here could find it if they wanted to. I have exercised great restraint from commenting on what I consider anti-American ranting and the defamation of an institution dedicated to the preservation of the ideals put forth in our Constitution.

To be honest I would just as soon stick to model railroading and leave politics to another time, another place. If the moderators decide to eliminate political commentary that would be fine with me. That would in no way be the same as the government censoring us. However, "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing" and I consider some of the BS being spewed recently to be more dangerous than any foul language or dirty pictures and I don't think I will keep silent much longer.

[tatans]

ACLU???? is that like WKRP?

[Anonymous]

My train group split up over politics so I generally try to ignore ranting...The problem with politics is that it often turns personal. People come from lots of different backgrounds and it is hard to know when you are offending or irritating some one. I think that most mature people avoid politics in group settings or are careful and respectful in what they choose to say.

My father was a lawyer then a Judge and a supporter of the ACLU.....He was a good man. I have been silent on the topics that ba***he judiciary/legal system (there have been lots) but it has been hard to not fire back at some of the things. I must say that Dave Kelley does a good job of sticking up for the legal system, but he shouldn't have to be put in the position of having to do so every week...

[Anonymous]

Trucks and trains is my game, I dont worry about the ACLU stuff.

[Virginian]

I plead guilty, but I don't feel guilty about it. I have never attacked another member, and I watch my language. The high handed "stick to the model rr'ing posts" and other admonishments always seem to come up whenever someone reads an opinion they don't agree with or someone picks on one of their pet organizations or theories.
I personally don't mind an occassional straying, if I don't want to I don't have to read anything, so I refrain from complaining about "having to" read anything. Every now and then I actually learn something new, often from someone I don't even happen to agree with. I think this is a good thing as it reminds me that I, unlike some, don't know it all.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Virginian
I plead guilty, but I don't feel guilty about it. I have never attacked another member, and I watch my language. The high handed "stick to the model rr'ing posts" and other admonishments always seem to come up whenever someone reads an opinion they don't agree with or someone picks on one of their pet organizations or theories.
I personally don't mind an occassional straying, ... it reminds me that I, unlike some, don't know it all.

Well put VGN! I highlighted the key phrases in your post. Those are the things Bergie is expected to deal with. Putting a muzzle on any political expression - just because certain people might be 'offended' - will only make a bad problem worse.

[Anonymous]

Long before forums such as this one, and YahooGroups I followed several newsgroups including RMR - rec.models.railroad for much of my up to date hobby information. It was almost a certainty that once a thread got to have a long life, went on for many days, that it would degenerated somehow to politics.

A thread on something innocent such as "What's the best GP-9" would get a small mention about 25-30 posts down saying something like "if the economy was better I could afford a better one". This would lead to replies about the current President of the U.S. not doing his job or something like than, then the thread would proceed along as a political discussion.

Once threads gained many posts I would mostly ignore them because of their eventual drift way off the subject. Seems like this happens here too. Like many other posters on RMR would remark - take your political messages to political newsgroups.

Model railroading is for enjoyment, and I personally do not want to participate in political or other far off discussions that have nothing whatsoever to do with my hobbies.

Bob Boudreau

[Fergmiester]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

ACLU???? is that like WKRP?

psst, American Civil Liberties Union

[MAbruce]

I think the best way for members to deal with objectionable off-topic threads is to simply ignore them. The less people post to them, the quicker they will die and move down the list. Sure, there will be a handful of people who might keep it going as they argue with each other, but I think it's the members who chime in with pithy comments against the topic that keep the whole thing alive far longer than it should be.

If you see a problem with the subject matter of a topic, then notify the moderators and let them take care of it if they so choose. Remember, it’s really their forum. They are paying for it.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Virginian

I plead guilty, but I don't feel guilty about it. I have never attacked another member, and I watch my language. The high handed "stick to the model rr'ing posts" and other admonishments always seem to come up whenever someone reads an opinion they don't agree with or someone picks on one of their pet organizations or theories.

I personally don't mind an occassional straying, if I don't want to I don't have to read anything, so I refrain from complaining about "having to" read anything. Every now and then I actually learn something new, often from someone I don't even happen to agree with. I think this is a good thing as it reminds me that I, unlike some, don't know it all.

[swg][swg][#ditto][#ditto][:D][8D] 10-4 and Roger that!

[Fergmiester]

Doesn't ACLU endorse freedom of speech, providing it's respectful and doesn't solicit hatred?

[Anonymous]

Maureen, I've seen just as many if not more Bush-bashing comments on this board, so just chill. Both sides do it.

ITA with those who say this forum should be for MRR only, which is why I would never initiate a political discussion here.

However OTOH, if someone else wants to go and open a can a worms here, then I figure all bets are off and they're inviting a challenge, and I'm more than happy to oblige them.

Example:

QUOTE: Originally posted by Muddy Creek

Maureen is absolutely correct. The interjection of opinions about this organization in at least three recent threads is out of place in this forum, in my opinion. It's simply displays a lack of self-control or maturity, as well as an obvious lack of understanding about the organization.

You mean an organization that has the backs of upstanding, wholesome groups like NAMBLA? Nope, not much to misunderstand there.

No Wayne, people criticize the ACLU and properly so, precisely because they DO understand it.

Just stirring the pot.[}:)]

[dave9999]

QUOTE: Bob wrote:
Once threads gained many posts I would mostly ignore them because of their eventual drift way off the subject. Seems like this happens here too.

Straying off topic is simply the nature of the beast (the beast being us). Next time you are having
a conversation with someone, try and count the number of times the conversation strays to other
subjects. That's just the way people comunicate. If we stay "on topic" in everything we discuss, life
would become really boring...really fast. Good luck, Dave

[IRONROOSTER]

Ah, another political thread.[:D]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GrayLoess

...
No Wayne, people criticize the ACLU and properly so, precisely because they DO understand it.

Just stirring the pot.[}:)]

Now if we could just get everybody to understand it correctly[D)], which BTW I have attempted to do in other threads[banghead], then we wouldn't have all this ranting.[(-D]

Enjoy
Paul

[davekelly]

Interesting posts here. It reminds me of how I was explaining model railroading to my now wife when we were dating. To me model railroading is more than building models and watching them run and this is why, I think, some topics stray. A lot of us do quite a bit of research into our favorite railroads and eras in order to more accurately model what we want. This gets us into areas that are arguably beyond model railroading. The railroads were shaped by many forces. Why is the building next to the coal mine called a "company store?" (coal mining companies owned everything). Why was the 44 tonner so popular? (engines that weighed 90000lbs needed an extra crewman). Why did all those fallen flags in the NE fail? (taxes, decrease of passenger revenue etc etc). How did Amtrack form? Why are there two waterfountains at the station in that 1930's southern station? Why did the govt help out trucks by building the interstate highway system? Why did the U.S. steel industry suffer after WW II? Why did that great building I want to model get torn down before I could measure it? And then there is the state of the hobby. Why were brass engines from Japan initially so cheap? Why are they now made in Korea? Why are so many products made in China now? Why limited runs? Why licensing agreements? Why did Ambroid cement almost get banned? Politics, litigation, social norms, international trade etc. have all worked to shape the railroads and our hobby. It doesn't surprise me that all of these things at times get hotly discussed here. I think as a whole this hobby is made up of people that are more aware of what goes around them and have formed opinions.

As long as folks stay civil, I don't mind the so-called straying from railroading - real and modeled. Much of it is somehow related.

Trainnut,

Thanks for the pat on the back. I don't consider what I do sometimes as "sticking up" for the legal system, I guess I see it as informing folks of how I view the system and hopefully I can point out some things that are not brought out in the popular press. Overall our system is good - but far from perfect. Of course when folks criticize the system - it only shows how good the system is (I bet your father would agree). There are quite a few folks in this world that would literally give their lives to criticize the system they live under.

Stepping off my soapbox (for now at least).

[simon1966]

I think this is a fairly civil place. There have certainly been well documented and on-going situations where profanity has required some serious moderation, but in general this has been a great place to hang. The forum format makes it very easy to avoid subjects that stray if you want to avoid them. Dave Kelly is spot on. We are modelling industries that were at the forefront of the labor movement. You can't get more political than that! I have been researching the coal mines of central Illinois from the 30's to the 60's. Talk about political activism. Anyway, I sincerly hope that we can be a lot more civil than the mine workers and owners were in the 30's!!!

[Bergie]

Here's my two cents... as most of you have probably heard before.

Religion and politics aren't welcome here. Nothing will destroy an otherwise perfect relationship like a difference of opinion regarding these two topics. It's very personal, and should stay that way. If a thread takes a turn for the worse and digresses into politics, e-mail me and I'll either lock it or delete it.

As always, personal attacks also aren't welcome. If this happens please e-mail me and I'll take care of it.

Finally, as we spend time in here, conversations will naturally stray from time to time. As I've said in the past, if you go to the hobby shop tomorrow morning to meet some of your chums, after being there for a while the discussion will naturally stray from model railroading to other topics. If that happens here, just don't let it turn to politics or religion and everything should be OK.

Have a super weekend, everyone. If you wondering why you didn't get the MR e-mail last night, our server decided to take a little break last night. You should see it sometime this morning. (If you didn't know we offer a weekly e-mail newsletter, update your Trains.com profile and select the Model Railroader newsletter under the Newsletter heading.)

Erik

[dwRavenstar]

Personally, I was lost when requests for information regarding proper wiring for a DC, common rail layout were answered with paragraphs of the virtues of DCC operations. [banghead]

Some of the refuse that's been posted lately; the political soapboxing, rants about real railroad operations / management and the like have left me thinking that the responders might well belong to that organization who's name is an acronym for "Argues Strenuously, Simply Having Offered Little Explanation".

This forum is a fantastic place for MRR information and tips, a community of dissimilar views and methods, a virtual melting pot of personalities BUT lately, all too often it's been a rant board with too many "just stirring the swill pot" responses and continuations of useless threads.

Perhaps a better approach would be for Emails to be used for arguments and battles rather than public, let's divide the mob and have a rumble threads.

I doubt there's any one right answer to the problem but I will, in the majority of instances, attempt to answer any requests for information with relevant information and limit my political rants and raves to the smoke shed at work. [^]

Dave Wyland (dwRavenstar)

[jimrice4449]

Am I the only one to have noticed that all those who are criticizing the free expresion of of disaproval of the American Criminal Lovers Union seem to be speaking from the left side of the political spectrum. Hmmmm???

[n2mopac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

QUOTE: Originally posted by Virginian

I plead guilty, but I don't feel guilty about it. I have never attacked another member, and I watch my language. The high handed "stick to the model rr'ing posts" and other admonishments always seem to come up whenever someone reads an opinion they don't agree with or someone picks on one of their pet organizations or theories.

I personally don't mind an occassional straying, if I don't want to I don't have to read anything, so I refrain from complaining about "having to" read anything. Every now and then I actually learn something new, often from someone I don't even happen to agree with. I think this is a good thing as it reminds me that I, unlike some, don't know it all.

[swg][swg][#ditto][#ditto][:D][8D] 10-4 and Roger that!

I have to agree. As long as opinions are expressed respectfully without attacking others and with the realization that other will disagree and as long as it does not degenerate into a flame war, I appreciate SOME off topic stuff. The fact is that this is a community and I appreciate learning what my fellow railroad modelers think about other topics as well. I want to keep the FOCUS on model railroading, but I don't mind straying off topic from time to time. And it I'm not interested or if it offends my sensibilities, I just DON'T READ IT!!!

Ron

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GrayLoess



You mean an organization that has the backs of upstanding, wholesome groups like NAMBLA? Nope, not much to misunderstand there.

No Wayne, people criticize the ACLU and properly so, precisely because they DO understand it.
Just stirring the pot.[}:)]

You seem to have a misunderstanding of the organzation. The ACLU advocates robust freedom of speech and will step in to defend these rights no matter whose are being threatened. This is done without defending or advocating the ideas or beliefs of the organization.

They have supported the rights of a wide range of organizations and individuals, no matter their beliefs or the content of their speech. These groups & individuals have included fundimentalist Christian churches, the National Socialist Party and Oliver North. It makes no distinction as to the merits or repugnance of their views.

The Constitution makes certain guarantees for all and there is a need to insure that rights are not abridged no matter how repugnant the subject. When the government begins to limit rights of some, the rights of all are threatened.

Wayne

Edited: Just read Bergie's post. This is the last I'll post on the subject. Back to trains for me.

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone. I think both sides have very valid points. On one hand, politics and religion are hornet's nests that we would all be better off avoiding but not because of the confrontation aspect. I learned a long time ago that everyone has their own opinion. Whether they fomed that opinion based on factual research or something that they've heard or whatever, it's their opinion. Nothing you can do or say is ever going to change their opinion especially on political or religious subjects. So my opinion is to just walk away from it. Beating a dead horse(not calling anyone out) may make you feel better, but you're all wasting time at that point.

On the other hand, I think stirring the pot is a good thing(to a point). I try see things from another person's point of view, and sometimes I come away with a better understanding on the subject being discussed. If it's something too volatile, I walk away or change the subject. Either way, I never take it personally.

Being from coal country(southwest Virginia), railroading is in my blood. I walked away from this hobby for a long time after my father died, because this hobby was something we shared and it hurt too much to look at it. With the birth of my son last July, I dug out those boxes of trains and found myself jumping back in with both feet. I truly enjoy getting on this forum and sharing with so many people who all have a common bond--a love of trains big and small. Even when the subject goes off topic, it's interesting to read another person's opinions. IMHO it's the off topic "curveballs" that keep things interesting. Thanks.

Robert

[MisterBeasley]

One thing I really like about this forum is that you CAN have a civilized discussion here about almost anything. If you go to a "political" forum, many of the participants will be rabidly pro and con on any issue. They will spout dogma and jingoism, and seldom apply any thought to the issues. I find the general level of conversation here to be pretty high, and the participants are either pretty well informed, or they're willing to admit that they're not and go from there. You seldom see a series of flames here, except when somebody leaves his caps-lock key on while asking an innocent question about ballast or trolleys.

You'll note that a lot of people have responded to this topic. It's one of the hottest things going today. I'd say that's indicative of they way we feel about the forum, and it's a good sign that we care about the opinions of our MR friends, even if we don't always agree with them.

[Anonymous]

Life is not one-dimensional. Politics & religion postings foster many replies precisely becuase they are of interest to a lot of people.

Capitalism should reign I believe, if people don't want to talk about off-topic ideas they won't post, if they do, they will post, its a self limiting or self sustaining process. As long as people try to stay civil I don't see the problem with it.

The very fact that a Train forum can discuss some of these issues without a lot of hatred or rehotoric, I think, makes us all the better for it.