Theoretical Yard Question

[SpaceMouse]

I want to say that my practical knowledge of working yards ranks right up there with underwater ping pong.

I'm designing a layout where trains move from a staging yard to a classification yard are broken down, sent on their merry way, and return to the yard. The trains are then loaded for other world use and sent off to the staging area.

There will be a two track main at this point, one for inbound an one for outbound. I had planned for a double ended yard, but it is making more and more sense in terms of space to have a single ended yard.

This might be a dumb question, but can a single sided yard that runs parallel to the main service trains running in both directions? It seems like it should be able to but I don't want to compromise too early if it not a good idea.

[cwclark]

yes it will work...build your layout so that you can park your mainline locomotives somewhere so they don't foul the yard and then bring out a yard switcher to do the switching...you can get the yard switcher to work both sides of the track by installing two run around tracks connecting the two mains together at both ends of the yard..be sure that they are separated far enough apart for the switcher to "run around" the mainline rolling stock so that it can work the cars from either end of the mainline tracks.....Chuck

[Anonymous]

Thou shall not violate the The Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design

[johncolley]

Also, Make your A/D a long siding so you can tie on power and go out either end. Te end that has the ladder track should be extended to serve as a lead or drill track.
____________________wb main_________________________________________
\ /
_______________\___________eb main____________________________/_______
\ /
________lead_______\_______________A/D Track (1)_____________/__________
\__________________________(2) \______/ \_________
\_________________________ (3) caboose eng service
ladder \_________________________ (4)
etc. as needed

[johncolley]

The schematic screwed up in transit, sorry. It looked OK on the submission

[SpaceMouse]

Gary,

I was thinking something like this.

Red=Main
Green=AD
Black = Yard
Lead not shown.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johncolley

Also, Make your A/D a long siding so you can tie on power and go out either end. Te end that has the ladder track should be extended to serve as a lead or drill track.
____________________wb main_________________________________________
\ /
_______________\___________eb main____________________________/_______
\ /
________lead_______\_______________A/D Track (1)_____________/__________
\__________________________(2) \______/ \_________
\_________________________ (3) caboose eng service
ladder \_________________________ (4)
etc. as needed

We were posting simultaneously--and I got the idea. Mine didn't have the lead, service tracks, etc.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Gary,I was thinking something like this.
Red=Main
Green=AD
Black = Yard
Lead not shown.

Double slip switches are not common on the prototype but may be found around passenger terminal tracks. However, if you use a double slip turnouts where the A/D lead track crosses the second main line, it will also work as a crossover for the main lines and you can eliminate one A/D lead at each end, crossings, save 4 turnouts and looks cleaner, if I'm reading the schematic correctly. Just a thought.

Or, if you have the room, put a cross over at each end of the mains before the A/D lead. You can still eliminate the other leads, turnouts and crossings for the A/D tracks. Cross overs would be easier to wire, cheaper and less complicated to operate than double slip switches.

[Jetrock]

Chip: Is there a specific reason to have both a staging yard and a classification yard? You could just combine them into one yard and have twice as much room.

That's what do, anyhow--I don't have room for two yards end-to-end, though. My "staging track" is my A/D track, the rest of the yard tracks are classification.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

Chip: Is there a specific reason to have both a staging yard and a classification yard? You could just combine them into one yard and have twice as much room.

That's what do, anyhow--I don't have room for two yards end-to-end, though. My "staging track" is my A/D track, the rest of the yard tracks are classification.

You are just bound and determined to get rid of both my helixes aren't you. [:D] I think I've worked out a NOLIX plan that looks and works okay, but I still have a couple bugs.

I'm envisioning a layout where 6 people can run operations or one person can follow a train. I'm seeing running a train from the world (lower staging yard) to the classification yard to the layout back to the classification yard, out to the world (staging track). There is plenty of room under the classification yard.

[West Coast S]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

Chip: Is there a specific reason to have both a staging yard and a classification yard? You could just combine them into one yard and have twice as much room.

That's what do, anyhow--I don't have room for two yards end-to-end, though. My "staging track" is my A/D track, the rest of the yard tracks are classification.

You have trounced upon my pet peeve, visible yards of any type. I concure with the multi-use stagging concept with a simple set of sidings for classification duties, helixes? i'd rather remove body parts then devote space and resources for these.
Of course what matters is WHAT you want. Dave

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by West Coast S

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

Chip: Is there a specific reason to have both a staging yard and a classification yard? You could just combine them into one yard and have twice as much room.

That's what do, anyhow--I don't have room for two yards end-to-end, though. My "staging track" is my A/D track, the rest of the yard tracks are classification.

You have trounced upon my pet peeve, visible yards of any type. I concure with the multi-use stagging concept with a simple set of sidings for classification duties, helixes? i'd rather remove body parts then devote space and resources for these.
Of course what matters is WHAT you want. Dave

Don't get me wrong, I'm new at this so explain to me how I do this with a couple of sidings.

I have 9 people over for an op session. I have two inbound double-headed freights5 minutes apart. I need to get 6 trains out of the yard within 30 minutes each being comprised from the two inbound trains. I assumed that I would need a classification yard, but if you think otherwise let me know and I'll rethink.

[Anonymous]

If anyone hasn't read gsetter's reply: "The Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design," I can attest to it as very enlightening and very helpful. There are some pretty cruel realities that we all must face when planning a working yard. Granted, the unyielding adherence to prototypical operations may cause many of us "pause for thought" (or re-thought). However, the article offers excellent data on "real world" priorities for those who are driven to that end. Thanks, gsetter.

[Anonymous]

Chip
I reconfigured your yard design to eliminate crossings. There are cross overs on the main line in blue but the one on the right is not shown.

[West Coast S]

Chip. Here's my plan for operations with no visible yards .I'm modeling Victor CA along the SP on the abandoned Kentucky House branch. Victor had nine packing houses and a large lumber distributor. The PFE house alone scales out to over five feet in S scale as per the prototype I have two runaround sidings in addition to the main. Spur one services five smaller houses in addition to the PFE house which has a second spur to access the attached power plant. Due to this layout, passing siding three is usless as a makeup tracks but excells as a drill lead... Two stub tracks diverge to the left from the main prior to these sidings and service additional packing houses. The lumber distributor requires three spurs branching off towards the right. Ok, i've got no classification yard as per my prototype, only stagging available is a shelf hung on the rear of the backdrop that allows two tracks.

There is a additional twist, due to my love of electric freight operations the mainline and one passing siding have overhead wire. It would be too dangerous to have men working on top of cars with wires overhead so these tracks are switched by a steam switcher, thus requiring a motive power change as well . Operations as envisioned: Train arrives from main stagging under electric power, upon arrival the motor is removed and using the passing siding, back on to the main and proceeds to vanish into the stagging yard.

Cars are preblocked from stagging simplfying switching moves, lets say we have five reefers for PFE these are blocked and switched into the plant in one move. If empties require pickup, the switcher will pull these onto the passing siding first freeing up the spur. But wait, the PFE shed is the last tennet on the spur, if the smaller sheds are occupied with cars they would also be switched out using the passing siding or main as yard tracks.

This general sequence is repeated until all switching is completed, by this stage we have assembled our outbound train on the passing siding. The aformentioned electric motor returns from stagging using the main , perhaps with a few run through cars, the steam switcher cuts off and runs forward and sits out the power transfer on the lumber lead (mutliple street crossings prohibit spotting on the main) . The motor proceeds up the main, backs into the siding and couples up. The steam switcher exits the lumber spur, proceeds up the main and retrieves the caboose, tacking it on the rear with a reverse move .

Time to highball back to main stagging located on the other side of the room, enroute you pass Clements with its grain silos and feed mills and eventually after some open country running , the berg of Valley Vista with duel passing sidings, quarry spurs and a lumber spur before terminating the run at main stagging where the cycle continues.

This type of operation I find extremely flexible, not all industries will require service at the same time or require the same number of cars. Even a few run through trains requiring no switching can be incorporated into the mix. Should make for interesting operating sessions.

For the purist who recoil at this line being electrified, there were such operations in the area and in my "what if scerenio" one of these carriers Purchased the line from the SP. Nuff said for now...Dave

[rrinker]

One thing that stood out in Chip's last message, having 2 trains come in, and then get broken up and sorted to create 6 outbound trains in 30 minutes - NOT gonna happen. It's going to take more than 30 minutes to classify 6 trains' worth of cars. Oh if your yard operater runs the switcher back and forth at warp speed, it could happen, but if you plan more prototypical operation, it's going to take a while to work the yard, even more so since you only show 3 yard tracks which means each track is doubled.
Or I could be completely out of my mind... Hmm, maybe that should be an 'AND'..

--Randy

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

One thing that stood out in Chip's last message, having 2 trains come in, and then get broken up and sorted to create 6 outbound trains in 30 minutes - NOT gonna happen. It's going to take more than 30 minutes to classify 6 trains' worth of cars. Oh if your yard operater runs the switcher back and forth at warp speed, it could happen, but if you plan more prototypical operation, it's going to take a while to work the yard, even more so since you only show 3 yard tracks which means each track is doubled.
Or I could be completely out of my mind... Hmm, maybe that should be an 'AND'..

--Randy

The drawings shown are simplifications. I have about 12ft x 30 inches allotted to the yard.

[dehusman]

SpaceMouse : I think its very unrealistic to think that any configuration you come up with will be able to bring in 2 large trains 5 minutes apart and then build 6 trains from them in 30 minutes. Why the rush? A real railroad allows about 4-8 hours to make a connection from an inbound to an outbound train. Cars that don't make the cutoff, roll to the next day's train.

Dave H.

[johncolley]

some questions to consider re: time compression, do your inbounds have cars for: reefers needing icing, livestock needing feed/exercise, emptys needing cleanout, and do your outbounds have any cars needing weighing? All of these things take time added to the necessary sorting.

[SpaceMouse]

Gentlemen,

I realize I was being unrealistic with the 6 trains in 20 minutes. However, I was only trying to make a point about major switching operations off a couple sidings and an AD track.

[SpaceMouse]

Dave (West Coast),

While your operation sounds like it would be fun to run, I am still intrigued by classification yards. I understand that they can be costly--I get the heebee jeebees just thinking about it. I don't plan to use it as a storage yard. I expect it to be dynamic and if I leave a car or three out, it will be used tomorrow.

I welcome other points of view.

[johncolley]

Exactly! Classification yards are dynamic and not generally for storage. Remember the staging yards represent the rest of the world where trains come from and go to.

[Anonymous]

There should be some storage tracks near the classification yard for snow plows, big hooks and other M.O.W. equipment. There also should be a R.I.P. track that is easy to place bad ordered cars and depending on era being modeled, an icing track, caboose track and a track to rest live stock. Maybe a warehouse near by.

[trainboyH16-44]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gsetter

Thou shall not violate the The Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design

Those are some pretty good commandments.
Trainboy

[Anonymous]

By the way, what is the best method for setting out a diagram for yard plans on this site? To date (for this Neanderthal), there seems to be lack of continuity. This is by no means a critique. I have trouble with the spelling or understanding the acronyms commonly used. Perhaps a crash course on "Coffee Shop" dialogue is in order?

[Jetrock]

Yards, I suppose, are one of those things that people will just disagree on, like diesel vs. steam or HO vs. N. I can't imagine a layout without a yard, because yards and industrial spurs are what draws my attention--that's where all the action happens! Half of my layout is yard, and half is industrial spur--the mainline itself is an afterthought, largely used as a place to execute switching moves. There is no worry about blocking through trains, because there aren't any--following my prototype's operating procedures, all through trains are broken down upon arrival at the yard, carried through the mainline to the other end if necessary. Besides, I don't have a loop.

That's part of the fun of model railroading, though--you can model the parts you like the most, and de-emphasize the rest.

[dehusman]

The basic things you need for a classification yard are someplace to put the inbound cars before they are classified, someplace to put the cars while they are being classified and then someplace to put the cars to go outbound.

There is no requirement to have dedicated arrival or departure tracks, although it can help the operation.
There is no requirement to have a switching lead, although it will help the switcher operate independent of the trains on the mainline.
There is no requirement to have a roundhouse, engine or caboose servicing facility, but you do have to figure out where the road engines and caboose will park while the train is being switched and a place for the switch engine to park while the road trains arrive or depart.
In most cases the wrecker tracks, etc. end up being purely display tracks. An icing track, cleaning track, scale track or RIP track can be a functional "industry".

If you want to practice switching, use a deck of cards to simulate it. On a large piece of paper draw 5 lines. On the bottom line deal a dozen or so cards. Then move the cards like railcars and "switch" them by suit.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

So, between Jetrock, dehusman's and "The Ten Commandments..." which is right? It can't be both ways! Are the "Ten Commandments" only for prototypical operations and all other postings (refuting the 'Commandments') simply "playing by their own rules?" I make no pretense at prototypical yard configuration. First of all, I simply don't have enough area to be "prototypical" and I'll wager the majority of the readers don't either. However, I cannot claim that my choices are "prototypical" anymore than I can claim that it doesn't matter if the mainline is blocked by switching operations. May we all admit to being sinners [Ten Commandments] and enjoy our reckless abandon in Model Railroad Pugaqtory together. lol

[dehusman]

I actually don't see anything that I've said that significantly conflicts with the "10 commandments". Actually you'll find most of what I've said in the "10 commandments" if you read them.

My comments in no way were meant to refute them. My comments were made to point out that if you don't have room for some of the things that are typically included in a classification yard, you can have a class yard without them. It may not have the capacity, it may not have the flexibility of a yard that does have all the elements, it it can still work in its limitations. It just depends on what you are trying to do.

Not all prototype yards have all the elements suggested either. But the smaller ones on real railroads aren't division point, high production yards either.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ted D. Kramer

So, between Jetrock, dehusman's and "The Ten Commandments..." which is right? It can't be both ways! Are the "Ten Commandments" only for prototypical operations and all other postings (refuting the 'Commandments') simply "playing by their own rules?" I make no pretense at prototypical yard configuration. First of all, I simply don't have enough area to be "prototypical" and I'll wager the majority of the readers don't either. However, I cannot claim that my choices are "prototypical" anymore than I can claim that it doesn't matter if the mainline is blocked by switching operations. May we all admit to being sinners [Ten Commandments] and enjoy our reckless abandon in Model Railroad Pugaqtory together. lol

Good point Ted. As it has been said, "There is a prototype for everything in railroading". Yard operations and its layout would depend on the size of the operation. A class 1railroad would not want to tie up the main line for anything.
Then there are the small short lines that may not operate more than a few trains a day over their whole system. For example, the entire Lake Shore & Ishpeming railroad in the upper peninsula of Michigan is classified as a yard.
The era modeled makes a difference too. In the early days, especially in the west, the main line is also the team track.
The Ten Commandments article was intended to help plan for an operating layout. It does state there are exceptions to the rules as practiced by the railroads.
So fear not the wrath of God if you switch cars on the main. It's prototypical!