Not-so-good experience with Life-Like

[SpaceMouse]

A couple months ago, I got a Proto 2000 FA2/FB2. The FA2 unit was extremely noisy and slow. In fact, it was so slow, that the FB2 would lap it every other lap. This is not acceptable for an MU. The FB2 unit had a short and blew out 2 decoders. I called Life-Like and told them the problems and they told me to send the units in. I sent them in with the decoders as well as the replacement boards they sent to me.

I got them back today with the following letter:

Dear Mr. Englemann,

We are returning your locomotives without repair.

We can only in this case, provide you with replacement PC boards as we have done to return your loco to their original configuration. I'm sure you can understand that Life-Like cannot undertake to install, check out the operation and warrant decoders made by other manufacturers.

Since you are using Digitrax decoders, we strongly suggest that you contact their tech support folks for help in solving the operational problems you are encountering.

The noisy running sounds as if the motor shaft bearings need some lubrication. These are the bearings at the end of the worm, and where the shaft exits the motor housing.

Regards,
Chuck Frieldlein
manager, Product Development
Life-Like Products, LLC

Now I understand that they would not want to mess with the Digitrax decoders. But it seems to me, that if they knew that PC boards were bad and had them in their hands and they knew that the noise was caused by the motor shaft bearings, that these problems could have been handled. Problems that should not exist in a new engine.

But not only did they take a month to do nothing, they did not send back the replacement boards nor did they send back the Digitrax decoders. So not only am I no closer to solving the problem, I have to re-obtain the replacement boards and decoders.

When I called to get my decoders back and re-obtain the replacement boards, I was told that Chuck was the only one that could help me and that he was in China. He would be there for 3 more weeks and I have to call back then. Not only that, when she looked at my account, she said, "I remember you. You're the one we sent back because we couldn't get parts."

Now, is it me or is there a smell blowing in from the cannery?

[Anonymous]

Oh-oh.... This doesn't bode well for me.

I just sent back a brand new P2K GP9 that, straight out of the box, ran with a "thump-thump-thump", like a gear was busted or it had a "flat tire" sound...hopefully they will fix it.

Did you ask what parts she meant that they couldn't get? I don't understand why the manufacturer of the loco couldn't get parts for their own creation..... P.U. something stinks....

[cacole]

Geeze, I have had exactly the opposite experience with LifeLike. I have never had to send anything back, but they have always sent me repair parts, no questions asked, and they paid the postage.

I would suggest that you phone them, tell them you have a defective motor in such-and-such a model, and the lady who answers the phone will probably just get your name and address and mail you a new one.

[Anonymous]

No wonder their warehouses are burning down. Life-Like is run by a bunch of flamers!

[gmpullman]

Petejung...
Let me know what you find in your GP-9. I have one that is doing the same thing but I haven't ripped into it yet. I thought there was a lump of gunk on the wheel tread but that's not the case.
I am waiting for a new headlight/ smokebox front for my Heritage NKP Berkshire.
Lifelike instructs you to change the bulb to a 12v but they don't tell you that it will melt the headlight molding.
Its been 2 weeks... so far no go.
I'm waiting to hear from Broadway Limited, too. They had the wrong engine number in the box for my B&LE RSD-15. Now I have 2 of same number. Broadway says that must have been a factory mistake and they are sold out. They recommended I buy a sound version and sell the other one!
Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by petejung

Oh-oh.... This doesn't bode well for me.

I just sent back a brand new P2K GP9 that, straight out of the box, ran with a "thump-thump-thump", like a gear was busted or it had a "flat tire" sound...hopefully they will fix it.

I suspect they will just swap the chassis.

[jfugate]

In my experience with locos on the Siskiyou Line, Kato and Atlas run very well, but my "problem children" are the Lifelike P2Ks.

The P2K SD9s develop pickup problems that drive you to distraction. I've tried lots of different things, the most recent being adding brass wire wipers to the axle tips. This seems to come closest to solving the problem so far.

The P2K GP9s are another story. The gears in the trucks can be cracked, which causes them to run thump-thump. They rely on the truck contact with the frame for one side of the power pickup so I added a direct wire feed from the loco truck to the circuit board to solve this. Finally, they are swimming in lubricant which messes with the frame contact and attracts dirt. After fixing all this, the GP9s still run rough compared to the Katos and Atlases. My latest resort is to gut the GP9s and replace the mechanisms with Stewart guts from A-Line.

I recently spoke with a long time friend who works in my local hobby shop -- he's been there for years. He asked me which units gave me the most trouble and I said "the P2Ks". He grinned and said "Yep! I finally just got rid of all my P2K stuff, nothing I tried would solve their problems."

Although their SD9s and GP9s look great, they don't stand up to constant use very well on a layout with regular operating sessions. I can't speak for their other locos, but these units have sure been a disappointment.

[tstage]

Chuck leaves for China...and NO ONE else is put in charge to help in Customer Service & Repair. Not very wise business tactics. Chip, I would call the woman back that you talked to to find out exactly "what parts" they couldn't get.

Tom

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomotive3

QUOTE: Originally posted by petejung

Oh-oh.... This doesn't bode well for me.

I just sent back a brand new P2K GP9 that, straight out of the box, ran with a "thump-thump-thump", like a gear was busted or it had a "flat tire" sound...hopefully they will fix it.

I suspect they will just swap the chassis.

When I first called, the woman said that "Normally we would just send you a new chassis, but we don't have any more." That is when she suggested I send it in.

[jrbernier]

I really do not understand why you mailed them back with the decoders installed. I would remove the decoders, see if the problem still happened, and then mail the engine in if the problem persists. I would not expect L-L to work on a modified engine.
My dealings with L-L have been by email, and they have just sent me parts(cracked gears) - Very good service in all 3 times I have contacted them.

Jim

[SpaceMouse]

For those of you that have been following the Hogwart's Saga about first the Bachman then the MDC woes for my son.

This Proto MU is my daughter's club train. She join the local train club when I did. We both got PRR engines and UT1controllers. We bought this MU in early January and have had nothing but problems with it. She stopped going to the club in February and still has no loco. She really doesn't want to share mine.

All my other engines work. It is my kids stuff that have been haing the problems. Don, if you're out there you can say, "See I told you about orphans. See told ya, yep!"

[davekelly]

Space,

How's the MDC 4-6-0 going? I think there's a lot of folks who would be interesting in knowing the outcome!

Dave

[Anonymous]

Most manuals with locos tell you not to send extras with locos for repair.I would never send loco in with decoders.............pretty hard for life like to work on a loco with a decoder.For any MFG to work on anything under warranty the unit needs tobe as factory issued condition.Your MU problem lies in the fact you need to set CV values......many locos the same do not have same running characteristics.Split gears.......likelike had a rash of this with GP9 and 7 units .......a phone call to them will get you replacements or if you have old Athearn units lieing around junked the gears are the same.If you hold the unit up side down and the wheel freewheels on the axel thats a sure split axel.If you take the wheelsets out the split is not always obvious unless you use a magnifier.

[trainboyH16-44]

Customer Service tactic #3
Refer to the recently deceased
"I sure hope nothing happens to old...Stan. He's the only one who can help you"
(Quoting dilbert)
I find that this is close to that.
Trainboy

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jrbernier

I really do not understand why you mailed them back with the decoders installed. I would remove the decoders, see if the problem still happened, and then mail the engine in if the problem persists. I would not expect L-L to work on a modified engine.
My dealings with L-L have been by email, and they have just sent me parts(cracked gears) - Very good service in all 3 times I have contacted them.
Jim

I probably shouldn't have mailed the decoders. And yes, they ran horribly without the decoders. I Knew they probably wouldn't do it, but since their locos had blown more money worth of decoders than I paid for the Protos, I thought they might go the extra mile and repalce the Digitrax with ones of their own.

I'm used to dealing with the gun world. If you send back a Ruger for any reason, it flat out comes back better than when you sent it in. They fix things you didn't know were broken and tune the things that you thought were okay. That is what is expected.

Maybe the integrety of loco manufacturer's...

[Anonymous]

I would have expected better myself. I will keep that in mind the next time I go shopping...[;)]
Thanks Chip

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Space,

How's the MDC 4-6-0 going? I think there's a lot of folks who would be interesting in knowing the outcome!
Dave

I took a rest from it since I ordered a Spectrum 2-8-0 for my kid. I'll probably spend the bulk of this weekend painting otherwise working on it. So maybe next weekend, I'll get back on the case. I have been emailed two excellent strategies of how others have dealt with this problem--complete with photos, so I know there are solutions.

I''l keep you posted with a couple of bottle rockets when I get it on track<--ew bad pun.

[rrinker]

I must say, I've had nothing but good experience with P2K locos so far. I have 3 GP-7's and an S1. My father in law has an SD-7, a new SD45, an SW9, and a whole gaggle of E-units. I have decodered all of mine plus his SW9 and SD-7 so far. Other than my GP-7, they have all taken some work for DCC, it's not been a direct drop-in - but LL isn't the only bad apple in that regard.
The other night one of my GP-7's started the thump-thump which everyone says is cracked gears - so I pulled both trucks apart to inspect the wheels and gears, no signs of cracking anywhere on the gears. No stress marks, nothing obvious. I put it back together - runs just as quiet as before. Hmmm...
I just picked up an MDC RS3 for cheap, it has the same drive as the P2K FA's. This kit will take some time to put together because I want to change some of te details to be closer to a proper Reading loco, plus it's unpainted, but I did test run the chassis and it seems fine. Talk about an Athearn knockoff - if the sides of the motor were bronze colored instead of silver, it IS an Athearn.

--Randy

[Pruitt]

Interesting!

A few days ago I was assembling one of the P2K 8000 gallon type 21 tank car kits, and I found that the kit was missing one entire parts tree (sprue). I called the 800 number, and the lady told me they would send the tree "if they have any." Meanwhile, I took the missing tree from another one of the same kits I had on hand.

I've had the kit for probably two years or more. If LL doesn't have the tree, I guess I'm just out of luck.

[dano99a]

QUOTE: Originally posted by petejung

Oh-oh.... This doesn't bode well for me.

I just sent back a brand new P2K GP9 that, straight out of the box, ran with a "thump-thump-thump", like a gear was busted or it had a "flat tire" sound...hopefully they will fix it.

Did you ask what parts she meant that they couldn't get? I don't understand why the manufacturer of the loco couldn't get parts for their own creation..... P.U. something stinks....

You should have called them and told them what it was doing they would have sent you replacement parts, the problem you describe is what I had in 3 of my GP9's and I narrowed it down to the wheel gear assembly. I called about it and they sent me 4 new pairs free of charge. I think what we are seeing here is "Don't send it back to them, repair it yourself." Thanks for the heads up!

[:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by jrbernier

I really do not understand why you mailed them back with the decoders installed. I would remove the decoders, see if the problem still happened, and then mail the engine in if the problem persists. I would not expect L-L to work on a modified engine.
My dealings with L-L have been by email, and they have just sent me parts(cracked gears) - Very good service in all 3 times I have contacted them.
Jim

I probably shouldn't have mailed the decoders. And yes, they ran horribly without the decoders. I Knew they probably wouldn't do it, but since their locos had blown more money worth of decoders than I paid for the Protos, I thought they might go the extra mile and repalce the Digitrax with ones of their own.

I'm used to dealing with the gun world. If you send back a Ruger for any reason, it flat out comes back better than when you sent it in. They fix things you didn't know were broken and tune the things that you thought were okay. That is what is expected.

Maybe the integrety of loco manufacturer's...

Do you modify your guns away from Ruger design and then send them in LOADED ???

I doubt if Ruger would like that !!!

That is in effect what you did with Life-like.

I have had no problems getting replacements for problem P2K locos, myself.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dano99a



You should have called them and told them what it was doing they would have sent you replacement parts, the problem you describe is what I had in 3 of my GP9's and I narrowed it down to the wheel gear assembly. I called about it and they sent me 4 new pairs free of charge. I think what we are seeing here is "Don't send it back to them, repair it yourself." Thanks for the heads up!

[:)]

I did call them. They said normally they would just have sent me a new chassis, but they were out of them. They then told me to send them in for repair.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gbailey


Do you modify your guns away from Ruger design and then send them in LOADED ???

I doubt if Ruger would like that !!!

That is in effect what you did with Life-like.

I have had no problems getting replacements for problem P2K locos, myself.

It is not analogous to sending a loaded gun no matter how you look at it. The decoders were detached and included with the replacement circuit boards. The PKs were in original condition except for a 250 ohm resistor on the light.

That is NOT the same thing as sending a self-modified gun to Ruger. Their policy is to revert all modifications back to their factory design specs. I did not ask Proto to install decoders per se, I just asked them to make sure they make it so it doesn't blow any more.

Like I said, I half-expected them as a peace offering to replace the Digitrax with their own--you know, take responsibility for their poor workmanship. They didn't in any way, shape, or form.

I'm not on a Crusade, but I know that if I buy a Proto I'm gambling on quality and service. So far on three units, I've got two defectives and a DCC ready that required I pull the engine to isolate the pole. I was told to return the two defectives and a month later they come back unchanged.

Quality = -3
Service = -2

I had planned to purchase more Protos. What do you think I'm going to do?

And believe it or not, this post is not a whine, but rather an exploration into what I can expect from our hobby industry. Can I expect the same from Horizon, Broadway (I remember the email posted), Bachman, Kato? It seems that quality assurance is not part of the industry vocabulary--or am I wrong?

[Anonymous]

LL doesn't make decoders (although the new sound models use a QSI decoder, made by QSI, of course), so I don't understand how you expected them to "replace" the Digitrax decoder with one "of their own" ???

I've got 13 P2K/P1K locos, almost half have decoders installed.

Of these, 4 P2Ks have Digitrax decoders that were installed by me., a 5th has an NCE decoder that I installed, and the 6th has a QSI sound decoder installed by LL.

NONE of my P2Ks have ever blown a decoder.

Could the "poor workmanship" be in your installation ???

If you don't want to buy any more P2Ks , that's your loss.

But after Atlas Masters and Katos, they are the best locos on the plastic market, and anyone who has been in the hobby for any time knows it.

[Anonymous]

Bachmann seem pretty good - I've emailed them with a few queries about OO scale models before now (had a set of container flats with no instructions about where the add-on parts in the box go) and had a reply within a day or so which was polite and very helpful. They do have a prominent notice on their UK site that if you return anything with a DCC decoder fitted they won't fix it (interesting attitude when they now offer DCC equipment - wonder if it extends to their own kit?). Not had any experience of Bachmann USA myself but from what I've heard they're good. I'm intrigued by the Proto problems - I have three Fairbanks-Morse locos from the P1K range and would now be worried about buying any further ones, as I'm guessing dealing with their service department trans-Atlantic would be tricky (been lucky so far!)

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gbailey

LL doesn't make decoders (although the new sound models use a QSI decoder, made by QSI, of course), so I don't understand how you expected them to "replace" the Digitrax decoder with one "of their own" ???

Didn't know that. I figured they were licencing with someone.

QUOTE: I've got 13 P2K/P1K locos, almost half have decoders installed.

Of these, 4 P2Ks have Digitrax decoders that were installed by me., a 5th has an NCE decoder that I installed, and the 6th has a QSI sound decoder installed by LL.

NONE of my P2Ks have ever blown a decoder.

Could the "poor workmanship" be in your installation ???

Sure could have been. I had only been in the hobby for a month and had been a DCC verteran of 3 days when I came into this unit. The first was the Proto S1 where I had to isolate the pole. The Second was the plug and pray of the F2A and I only had to add a resistor to the headlight. The difficult one that I obviously did wrong was the FB2. I assumed that since there was no light and the instructions said to plug in the decoder that that was all I had to do. The first time it blew I called Tony's and he suggested I send it back to Digitrax who replaced it. The second one blew right away so I came on this board and it was suggested that I trace writing for shorts. I found a solder bridge on the collar. Had I not been inept I would have checked the collar before I simply plugged and prayed.

QUOTE: If you don't want to buy any more P2Ks , that's your loss.

But after Atlas Masters and Katos, they are the best locos on the plastic market, and anyone who has been in the hobby for any time knows it.

I admit my S1 runs like a dream. Can't say that for the MU.

[Don Gibson]

CHIPPER: May I call you "Chipper"? - (otherwise "Mouse" is fine).

The people at Life-Like that pay the salaries - like Bachmann, Athearn, and everywhere else, DO NOT authorize work done on ANY modification's done to their product by you, the customer, or any one else. That means YOU or whoever did your DCC installation, is on the hook for repair's. PLEASE RE-Read the warrantee.

'EXCEPTION' - If they sell you the same product with a 'Factory Installed' (and charged for) accessory - of any kind.

EXCEPTION 2. If you had bought your FA 2'S from someone such as TONY's TRAIN Exchange - with a price for installing DCC - Tony's would be on the hook for both the engine and the Digitax, and HE would be absorbing the repair's, not you. Chances are he would have spotted the defective unit when installing the DCC.and you would have never seen it. In short, you got what you paid for.

NOW if you can remove the module and all traces of modification (AND ARE STILL UNDER WARRANTEE) , LL can send you a NEW unit - or give you a repair job - Their choice.

Be sure to remove any KD coupler's.

[mustanggt]

At least they're not like Bachmann, who I've heard just discards the engines- decoder or not, and sends a new one.... Probably not true[xx(]

[SpaceMouse]

Don,

I called and told them the problem. They told me to send it in. I did. they sent it back untouched. End of story. The decoders made the trip, but not in the train. Except for a 250 ohm resistor, the trains were stock.

The secretary told me that normally they would have replaced the chassis, but they didn't have any. They probably didn't have either the parts or the replacement, so they decided to do nothing rather than fix it.

[Don Gibson]

MOUSE:

Sound's to me like you're out of warrantee.They Have to honor their warrantee (they pay) ... or you fix (and you pay). I don't buy they don't have parts. P1K and 50% of the P2K's share the same part's.

What is the expiration date?
Any modification void's Warrantee service. Better remove the resistor,

What's it worth to you to get it fixed? What'sit cost for a new one - An A unit?
Worst case - a spare.

Side note: If you find a new one, it's got a full warrantee. Send the old one back under that warranty, while you play with the new one. Shell's are interchangable..