Wheel set help please.

[Anonymous]

33" sounds like what you need. dont put metal wheels on the MDC engine though, they will short on the steam chest.

[Don Gibson]

'ROLLING QUALITY':

is primaily determind by the (1)quality of the pastic in the side frames - Delrin for instance (2) polish on the axle tips and (3) the combination of the two - in short the FRICTION between the moving parts.Springs were a nicety.

TWO of the best rolling trucks ever, were the LINDBERG - sprung with plastic wheels,
and Kato - unsprung with metal wheels,

TWO of the worst ever were the old Walthers and Athearn - both sprung - with metal wheels, and metal sideframes.

Kaydee Metal Product's (yes Kadee) went to plastic axles because their wheels and sideframes were metal to metal. Sprung truck's may or not 'track better', but their benefit is marginal, and mostly theoretical - from the days of metal cars such as Globe.

If I can get good sprung trucks I will buy them, but the key quality I look for is ROLLING.

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse


I'm wondering how much good a sprung truck would do for a 40 foot boxcar, 34 foot Overton, or a 26' tanker.

You may not be able to see much improvement on a per-car basis (other than in appearance), but on a fleet basis I think you will. Add sprung trucks to a properly-weighted car or two, then run them very slowly through a yard throat, watching the trucks as the wheels clatter over the switches (especially the frogs). With good quality trucks, you'll see the sideframes move slightly, allowing the wheels to follow the variations in the trackwork.

I use Kadee trucks for the most part - they make quite a variety of styles, the wheels roll freely, and the springs are "soft" compared to some other brands, thus allowing the sideframe movement.

You'll spend a few extra bucks for the trucks, but for me the cost is worth it. With trucks, couplers and sometimes a few extra detail parts (like stirrup steps, brake system parts and what-not), I figure an extra ten to fifteen bucks for a completed car. With just the trucks and couplers, the cost is somewhere around eight dollars.

For me that cost is worth it - except for a very occasional coupler issue, my relatively small - around twenty-five cars - freight car fleet is maintenance free.

You might add sprung trucks to a small train of cars, and just the metal wheelsets to another small train, then run each train for a few weeks or months. That way you don't spend a ton of money up front, and you'll be able to figure out which direction is best for you.

[Anonymous]

SpaceMouse, if you have the capital to replace the solid plastic truck side frames with sprung equalizing metal trucks, by all means do so. It is the difference between "good enough" and "best." Okay, it isn't the sort of thing you point out to a visitor as a "grand stand" exhibition but an experienced modeler will look for this feature right away. Is it a too expensive for modest returns? That is your decision alone. As a long term goal, replacing plastic trucks with metal is in my opinion is very worthwhile. Regards

[Anonymous]

There used to be metal wheel sets available for the Hogworts coaches. I was referred to Hatton's in Liverpool by some folks in the UK but I can't seem to find those Bachmann Branchline Coach metal wheelsets this time. You may need to sent them an e-mail. Their site is http://www.hattons.co.uk/productList/category_list.asp?c=13 This is the page where you'll find other packs of wheel sets for the British Bachmann rolling stock. This page will also be of interest as it shows you can get new guts for your broken Hogworts (Hall) Express

[SpaceMouse]

I wrote this about 10 posts ago, but it didn't seem to make it.

I'm wondering how much good a sprung truck would do for a 40 foot boxcar, 34 foot Overton, or a 26' tanker.

[mondotrains]

Hi,
I noticed that www.greenwayproducts.com has come up with brass sprung metal trucks but I'm not sure they have the spinning roller bearings you're looking for. Check them out.

Mondotrains

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrgrassi

Kato make a nice set with "spinning" roller bearings. Only problem is they only come in 70 ton or 33" protoypically, so they will not look right on cars designed for the 100 ton or 36" trucks. The Kato's just snap in, and the roller bearing presses on the tip of the axle. Metal wheels are the only way to go. They are not dirt magnets like the plastic wheels either. I do use the sprung friction bearing trucks for my steam era and steam to diesel era cars. I would like to find some good, metal, sprung roller bearing trucks, but all I find is plastic, like the Kato's. I would love it if someone came up with a metal sprung roller bearing truck in 33" and 36" with the spinning roller bearings.

Have fun changing out wheels and trucks. They do make a huge difference.

[rrgrassi]

Kato make a nice set with "spinning" roller bearings. Only problem is they only come in 70 ton or 33" protoypically, so they will not look right on cars designed for the 100 ton or 36" trucks. The Kato's just snap in, and the roller bearing presses on the tip of the axle. Metal wheels are the only way to go. They are not dirt magnets like the plastic wheels either. I do use the sprung friction bearing trucks for my steam era and steam to diesel era cars. I would like to find some good, metal, sprung roller bearing trucks, but all I find is plastic, like the Kato's. I would love it if someone came up with a metal sprung roller bearing truck in 33" and 36" with the spinning roller bearings.

Have fun changing out wheels and trucks. They do make a huge difference.

[Anonymous]

rrinker -

Thanks for the explanation on why there are ribbed and flat backed wheels... I always wondered.

[rrinker]

I love the Proto wheels and use them in everything they fit in. Note "fit in" - because nto all trucks are created equal. I have had good luck with P2K wheels in Athearn and Accurail trucks. Of course my P2K cars already have P2K wheels in them. My new Stewart hoppers all have P2K wheelsets. My Kato hopper - no go, the P2K wheelset is the wrong length. But these already have nice free-rolling metal wheelsets in them. For most things that don't fit P2K wheels, the Kadees seem to fit. Real oddballs may need the Reboxx wheels, but they are quite expensive. Still, it may be the only choice. Wheelsets that are too wide are obvious - they won't roll. Too narrow is tougher to see - until you see the truck wobbling down the track because it wanders side to side on the too-short axle.

I have one of those truck tuner tools, and so far have found it to be mostly not necessary. But those few times - you have a particularly bad roller, it's probably because of some flash in the journal, and the tool cleans them out and restores proper operation. But the vast majority of my stock, I see little or no improvement after going through the lengthy process of using the tool to clean all journals.

Re the rib-backed vs. flat - havn't seen too many railroad applications of hydraulic brakes - still air operated. The difference is in the metal and the way the wheel is made. Back when, the cast iron wheels couldn't dissipate braking heat and so had the ribs cast on to help this. The newer chilled steel wheels can handle the heat building from braking and so the ribs were no longer needed.

--Randy

[Leon Silverman]

Sorry to disappoint you guys, but the railroads never switched from hand to hydraulic brakes. The Air brake system invented by Westinghouse in the 19th century for railroad use is still be used today, albeit with electronic controls to speed up response times on long trains.
Automobiles initially used cable operated brakes and then switched to hydraulic actuation.
Page 75 in the December 2003 issue of Model Railroader explains the difference: The ribbed wheels were made out of cast iron (a.k.a "chilled" wheels for the heat treatment of the treads.) Modern wheels are made out of cast or wrought steel and do not have the ribs. The steel wheels started being used in the 1920's, were
forbidden on new cars after 1957, and banned from interchange use by 1970.

[tstage]

Chip,

Along those same lines. When I'm putting in a set of metal wheels into a truck, I ALWAYS give the wheel a good spin and watch to see how long it will continue to spin before stopping. (A good spin should last a least 5 seconds or better before coming to a dead stop. Any less I switch or substitue.)

Not every wheel spins the same in the same truck. What works okay in one truck may work terrific in another truck, and vica versa. If a metal wheel doesn't spin well, rotate it or substitue it for another. I've never discarded a single metal wheel. It's always found a home somewhere.

Tom

[Anonymous]

I can vouch for the Proto wheelsets on my layout... I've got code 83 track, and a ton of old rolling stock (1970 and earlier). The rolling stock had serious derailment issues, and it wasn't until I started looking at the "knife edge" on the plastic wheels that I realized I should try different wheelsets - I'm sort of new to this whole model railroading thing... So I went down to LHS and told the guy my problem and he hooked me up with some Proto wheelsets. Each and every piece of rolling stock that had been derailing started to roll around the track with no problem.

Changing the trucks probably isn't a bad thing to do, either, but more expensive...

And whoever was making the comments about the ribbed wheelsets being discontinued on the real rolling stock was 100% accurate...

[mondotrains]

Hi SpaceMouse,
I know your dilemma regarding switching to metal wheelsets because we've all "been there". About a year ago, I posted a question about metal replacement wheelsets and had hundreds of responses. It appeared that the Intermountain's were the favorite choice, with the Proto 2000's second and then Kadees. I tried them all and here's my two cents worth of input based on the input I got last year and my own experimentaion.

The Intermountains are way toooooo slick. What I mean by that is in areas where my sidings are the slightest bit unlevel, the cars tend to roll, rather than stay put where I drop them. The slickness is a little less with the Proto 2000's, but cars with them also rolled when I didn't want them to. My layout has been carefully leveled but there are always going to be sidings where there may be slight imperfections.

It turns out that some folks have noticed that the sharp metal point of the Intermountains can wear through the plastic truck journal over time.

Proto 2000's, while not as slick as the Intermountains, have an axle length that can make them a little sloppy in some trucks.

Believe it or not, when all was said and done, I went to the "tried and true" Kadee metal wheelsets. They roll beautifully and they have plastic axles that won't wear out the journals on my trucks, and they are inexpensive. I bought mine from Standard Hobby for around $4.75 per 12.

I know the Kadees aren't as slick as the others, but that's okay. I've easily pulled 15 freight cars around my layout with only one engine and had no problems. I really think the only reason to go with the Intermountains is if you've got grades and are building really long trains and need the extra "slickness" or rollability. If you're going to run 7 car trains, like I am, you'll be happy with the Kadees.

I obviously traded off rollability for the ability to spot a car and have it stay put.

Hope this helps.
Mondo

[Anonymous]

Here's some spring/rib infor.http://www.kadee.com/html/trucks.pdf
Some folks don't like the thread black finish since it wears off & transfers to the track.

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jrbernier

Mark,

Sprung trucks can help, but the springs usually are way to stiff to provide good equalization. If your track is so bad that you have to use fully equalized trucks in HO, then you need to re-examine your track laying construction methods(unless you are modeling a wornout branch line).

Jim

I would have thought so about the springs, too, but my experiences say they do have some positive effect.

As far as my tracklaying goes, I think it's okay - my steamers, including some pretty sensitive brass, stays on the track. The occasional derailments I used to suffer disappeared almost completely with the addition of the sprung trucks. Maybe some of it is the additional weight of the metal sideframes and crossmember (whatever that's called) lowering the CG of the car a little more than the metal wheelsets alone.

[tstage]

Dave.

Thanks. That's what I understood about the ribbed wheels but neglected to mention. Thanks for the correct spelling on the word "hydraulic". (I knew it didn't look right.)

Tom

[jrbernier]

Mark,

Sprung trucks can help, but the springs usually are way to stiff to provide good equalization. If your track is so bad that you have to use fully equalized trucks in HO, then you need to re-examine your track laying construction methods(unless you are modeling a wornout branch line).
The metal wheels will provide a good free rolling, consistantly gauged wheels that will roll much better and you will see less derailments as a rule.

Jim

[dwRavenstar]

Tom,
It's my understanding that the ribbed wheels were designed to dissipate heat caused during braking and the need dissappeared with the hydraulic braking system. Good call [bow]

Dave (dwRavenstar)

[tstage]

Chip,

Good choice switching to the metal wheels. All my rolling stock is equipped with them. They roll better and the track will stay cleaner.

The 33" wheel is what you want. From what I understand, you should use the "ribbed" wheels for anything from the late 30's and before. The flat back wheels replaced the ribbed ones about that time. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that was due to the switch from hand braking to hydraulic braking.

Perhaps someone more knowledgable can elaborate more fully on the topic. I'd love to understand it more fully.

Tom

[Pruitt]

I'd dump the whole idea of new wheelsets, and go straight to new sprung trucks.

When I did that, the reliability of my track went up by at least a factor of ten, and I'm not kidding.

Sprung truck construction allows the sideframes to twist slightly independent of the car body or the other sideframe, whereas rigid trucks don't, metal wheels or not. So the sprung trucks can negotiate minor deviations in track better than rigid frame trucks can. This is especially apparent at turnouts and diamonds.

[jwar]

You might want to check out M. B. Klein at www.modeltrainstuff.com. The proto whells are 3.99 per 12 pack. Protos have plastic axles and will not short with older metal trucks. I forget the brand name of the metal axle wheels, ohm them out and be sure to have the insulated wheel on the same side of the truck, as they shot out when the metal wheel touches the truck frame, but perhaps better then Proto.

As stated above the ribed wheels are modeled after cast iron wheels, these were scraped out on sight during the late 50 and 60s. Perhaps a axel tuner (is like a pointed center ream) would remove the burr and is great to make the trucks more free rolling.

[Anonymous]

Please be aware that axle lenths vary among truck/ model car manufacturers.
Per Nigel, P2K 1.008, IM 1.013, KD 1.018 etc, etc.
You may wi***o evaluate the 6" digital caliper" and the reboxx exxact truck tuner
if you wi***o be right on the money.

[howmus]

Hi Mouse! For your old time rolling stock, you will want the 33" wheelsets. Check the rolling stock to see if what they have are the smooth back or the ribbed (easy enough to do). You know that depending on the make of the equipment, some retrofit wheelsets may not fit properly. I would start with a couple of packages and see what fits and what doesn't fit and go from there. On some, you may want to replace the entire truck assemby. I will be changing out all of my rolling stock to metal wheels as sonn as I can. Let us know how it works.

[SpaceMouse]

I'm finally convinced to buy some metal wheel sets after reading a gillion posts and I'm taking the majority opinion and going with Proto 2000. However, my ignorance knows no bounds. I don't have a clue what I need. Here are the choices at Train World.

21257 36" WHEEL SETS (12) 5.99
21258 33" FLAT BACK WHEEL SETS (12) 5.99
21259 33" RIBBED BACK WHEEL SETS (12) 5.99

I would use them on old-time MDC kits, old time Manuta cars, I have a couple old-time IHC kits (not yet built), the two Hogwarts passenger cars, 3 Bachman Spectrum passenger cars, and the MDC 4-6-0 kit engine front truck.

What uses what?