FYI: On a positive note.

[jimrice4449]

There's a solution to the wimpy performance of HO steam engines. Power the B unit (also referred to as the tender). I have a test helix (it makes two circles and dead ends). It's 1 1/2% with 42" curves. I have this obsesion with long trains and I run 3 unit 1st generation power consists (sometimes w/ an extra dummy B just for appearance) and they handle 40-50 cars with no problem. Couple up a steam engine of comparable HP and it can't start the train on the flat. I've been threatening to power a tender or two to try this out in the real world for years (OK decades) and I think this year's the time I'm really going to do it. I got a Bachman Niagara to serve as a guinea pig (if I screw up I'm only out 50 bucks) and this is the ultimate wimp. It runs great but it barely gets three brass psgr cars up the helix. This from the equivelent of 3 E-units.
I tried floating this idea to the letters to the editor of the 3 major MR magazines but Mainline Modeler was the only one to print it but it generated a lot of comment. I'll post the results after I get my stumps in gear and do it.

[SpaceMouse]

The results are in:

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34964

[dinwitty]

I never would consider an 0-6-0 for serious grade operations, more for light grade level switching or into industrial areas.

For me, my layout is being designed heavy grades and serious pulling which means big engines that PULL, to move hoppers over those grades.

[Anonymous]

Based on my previous layout experience, on a small model railroad, there's definately something to be said for "flat as a pancake".

You could achieve bridges by "digging" into the benchwork. Just throwing that out there as you're contemplating your next, larger layout.

Sounds like you're having fun!!!

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

Another thought: is it really 3%. You probably know this already but: if you measure from flat bit to flat bit you don 't get a true reading. The real grade is the middle part of the incline NOT COUNTING the transition curves at the top and bottom. It can be a lot steeper. I've been caught by this one when designing layouts on paper.

Also as mentioned earlier in this thread, curves make a BIG difference. the late great John Armstrong did some tests and soemwhere, i think Layout Planning for Realistic Operation, there is a table of the "effective grade" depending on the curve. At the tight radii we often work with, we are nearly doubling the effective gradient, as I recall it.

You're right, I eased into the incline and did not take that into consideration. I'll recalculate tonight.

[robengland]

Another thought: is it really 3%. You probably know this already but: if you measure from flat bit to flat bit you don 't get a true reading. The real grade is the middle part of the incline NOT COUNTING the transition curves at the top and bottom. It can be a lot steeper. I've been caught by this one when designing layouts on paper.

Also as mentioned earlier in this thread, curves make a BIG difference. the late great John Armstrong did some tests and soemwhere, i think Layout Planning for Realistic Operation, there is a table of the "effective grade" depending on the curve. At the tight radii we often work with, we are nearly doubling the effective gradient, as I recall it.

[SpaceMouse]

Actually, I knew weight was an issue as is friction and weight bearing on the drive wheels which is why the Heisler out performs the other engines of is size/weight.

I'm more curious than anything.

The way I'm solving the "problem" is dropping to 2% grades of less on the basement layout. For the 4x8 layout small trains are fine.

I didn't think of it as a problem, but the traction tires and putty weight sound intriguing. Not a lot of room in those old steamers though.

[MidlandPacific]

Adding weight is the best solution; you can probably also buy or make drivers with traction tires (essentially a thin rubber band) that may help the problem. But you're right: grades reduce pulling power very quickly. The best answer is probably to do what the prototype did on heavy grades: double the hill or add helpers.

Another point to note is that curves add resistance, and increase the effect the grade has on your train (if your power pack has a voltmeter or an ammeter, you'll be able to see it there).

[Anonymous]

Chip, two suggestions. In the shorter term, try adding weight. A-line sells a moldable putty that is 90% lead and I have nearly always been able to squeeze more or less of it into my steamers. (The MDC 2-6-0 might be a problem on this, though). In the longer term, plan on double-heading. My current semi-temporary layout (for fun and testing while I complete the finishing of the basement) has 2% grades as planned for the permanent layout, versus my layout in the previous house which was all on one level. I quickly learned that my small steam needs to be double-headed in order to pull satisfactory train lengths up the grade (for me, a minimum of 10 cars with a goal of 15). Even with DCC, you'll get the best results double-heading steam by using two identical models. Your biggest problem will be installing Kadee couplers in the front. It's usually possible but rarely easy, and I often decide in advance which of each pair will be the front and rear double-headers, thus only adding front Kadee to one of them. The double-heading has the added benefit of always impressing casual visitors. Of course, I have to say that the additional expenditure was unwelcome and is being spread over a two-year period.

[CP5415]

Don's right.

It has do do with the weight of the locomotive.
My IHC 4-6-2 can haul 5-6 Athearn passenger cars up a 3.5% grade, any more than that I have to get a diesel out to help it. My Proto PA can haul 15 Walthers Budd coaches up the same curved grade.

Gordon

[SpaceMouse]

Now the I've just cleaned the rails of everything, as in painted and scraped, I think I'll clean the wheels on the engines and re-run the tests. I'll post the results.

[ac4400fan]

gsetter ,i couldnt say it better, my grandfather told me some storys,,hehe your right ,,,,my regards spacemouse

carl

[selector]

My P2K Heritage 0-6-0 is used to get small ore cars up a 3.6% incline, and really struggles with more than three cars. I wi***hat it weighed another two or three ounces, because it is much too light with a plastic body. Hopefully I can find a way to weight it.

[Don Gibson]

3% grades are comewhat common in HO RR's. The average HO engine can outpull it's prototype, but small HO engine's (such as IHC) wiil have problems.

Be aware that Spectrum 2-8-0 and 2-10-0's are above average engines except for weight - and are not 'puller's'. That seems to be a trend with today's plastic steam. I doubt any of today's diesels have problems with 3%..

[dinwitty]

You will have to think like the prototype, doublehead, or larger engines.

Consider the N&W would use their Y6's doublehead heavy coal trains with pushers up the virginia mountains.

[rrinker]

I'm kinda surprised at the lack of pulling pwer from the Heisler though. 3.1% is steep, but not hideous.
I did some testing with a 4% incline set from Woodlans Scenics, I wanted to make a flyover junction effect, short (less than train length) but steep grade to get the one line up and over. None of my switchers could start 6 cars on the grade, but it LOOKED like they would have been able to continue on had they started on a flat. Maybe not. But then, the switcher wouldn't ordinarily be in that area. My F7 and GP7's started the 6 cars just fine.
Just the same, i decided to cheat and lower the benchwork 2" and have one track climb at 2% and one descend at 2%. All of my stuff can manage on the 2% grade. So I will have the effect of a 4% grade but no train wiull ave to negotiate more than 2%,

--Randy

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan

Originally posted by SpaceMouse
man those are some steep grades, no wonder you're pulling so low. Real railsroads really tried to no get over a 1.5-2% grade, and really prefered a 0.5-1% grade, many old time railsroads would go 10-12 miles out of their way just to build a smoother grade than a direct route would have. where alternate routes were not possible, they'd cut the land, or fill the approach to achieve acceptable grades. Imagine 300 chinese or irish laborers doing land excavations with picks and shovels, that was cheaper than multiheading or cut and shuffle for the railroads.

What can I say. My kid wanted some bridges and tunnels. I wrapped the grade from as far back as I could and the best I could get was 3.1%.

My next layout will limit the grade to 2% on the main line even in the helices. There will be some logging and everything there will be geared to the Heisler, Climax and Shay's abilities.

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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