When did California figure out the brick thingy? (Layout Floor Plan Added.)

[SpaceMouse]

That if you build structures out of brick, they're eventually going to fall down or at least crack every time the earth shakes.

Reason, there are a lot of good industrial that are brick buildings, quite a few that are metal, but very few that are wood buildings. I'm trying to figure out if there were brick buildings around in the 1890's.

I know thay had figured it out by 1907.

[dehusman]

I am trying to figure out what question you are actually asking.

Is your question:
Did they have brick buildings in California in the 1890's?

They did.

Dave H.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

I am trying to figure out what question you are actually asking.

Is your question:
Did they have brick buildings in California in the 1890's?

They did.

Dave H.

That was my question thanks. I know they stopped after the big earthquake.

[MisterBeasley]

Mouse, this has nothing to do with bricks, but is L'il Guy's rear truck derailed in that picture?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MisterBeasley

Mouse, this has nothing to do with bricks, but is L'il Guy's rear truck derailed in that picture?

Shhhhh! I was hoping no one would notice.[:D]

[TurboOne]

Mister Beasley caught you Chip. Now you have to take a new picture where it is on the track.

In San Diego we still have some brick houses, but the bricks are decorative only. They build the house out of stucco, drywall, etc... and put brick on after the fact.

Did you know we have over 600 quakes a year here in CA ?

Tim

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TurboOne

Mister Beasley caught you Chip. Now you have to take a new picture where it is on the track.

In San Diego we still have some brick houses, but the bricks are decorative only. They build the house out of stucco, drywall, etc... and put brick on after the fact.

Did you know we have over 600 quakes a year here in CA ?

Tim

Dude,

I grew up in CA. I was teaching at CSUN and standing in the parking lot when the Sylmar Quake hit. It was really cool watching the asphalt roll like waves in the ocean. Of course, all the car alarms were set off. That got pretty annoying very quickly.

CA is where I had my contractor's license.

[Anonymous]

California and elsewhere was using brick construction before the 1860's. Brick (and stone and adobe) became more popular in urban areas as neighborhoods or entire towns were leveled, not so much by earthquakes, as by fire. Fire was often the key destructive element even during an earthquake, as fire spread rapidly and fire-fighting was hampered by the interuption of the water supply.

Brick buildings would be interspersed with wood framed buildings in small towns where spread of fire was less of a concern. As time went on., cities became more and more "fireproof" by prohibiting wood frame construction.

Pre-1900's urban layouts would likely be correct to have a mix of building styles. Best to check historical photos of the era & locations being modeled.

Wayne

[vsmith]

Unreinforced Masonry Construction (URM), your basic traditional East Coast brick constuction technic was banned only after the 1933 Long Beach earthquake. Yet 1000's of URM building were already built, after the 1971 Sylmar EQ the City of LA and later many other cities passed codes that all URM buildings were to be either siemically upgraded or torn down, in the years since codes for ALL buildings recieving significant remodelings have to be upgraded to the latest EQ code regulations, that includes homes not bolted down, older tilt-up concrete warehouses, and older mid and high-rise buildings.

I've done a mess of EQ upgrades over the years, even having the codes change in the middle of construction necessitating a major redesign of a 1/2 built building. About a year after Northridge all projects under construction that had not yet recieved there certificates of occupancy were required to re-evaluate there structural and met the new requirements, what a hassle that was.

Brick is still around as a decorative element, and concrete block is still very common.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TurboOne

Did you know we have over 600 quakes a year here in CA ?

Tim

You people in California, are not even close, the average for Alaska is 24,000 quakes a year.

Rick

[orsonroy]

Wait, isn't Ur made out of bricks? That's a little before 1890...

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jesionowski

QUOTE: Originally posted by TurboOne

Did you know we have over 600 quakes a year here in CA ?

Tim

You people in California, are not even close, the average for Alaska is 24,000 quakes a year.

Rick

Yeh, even NY has more. The Niagra escarpment has several a day. Its just that most barely register on the Richter Scale. I have felt some of them when I was a student at the University of Rochester and a couple here in Geneva. They are more of a "what was that?" than anything else. Usually feels the same as being somewhere near the tracks when a freight train goes by...... Glad I live here and not out there!

[Anonymous]

Doesn't the definition of Unreinforced Masonry Construction vary from area to area? I've read of cities in California that classify brick veneers on wood frame strctures as URM.

We have an occasional earthquake here in the Northeast. A couple of yeas ago we had a minor ( by comparison) 5.7 quake a few miles from here in the Adirondacks that shook me out of bed. The visible damage, other than road fill collapses, were to brick structures.

Ray is correct, brick has been used for millenia. Not only in Mesopotamia, but elsewhere. The Great Wall in China is constructed of brick. Early US colonial buildings were often brick. Independence Hall in Philadelphia was built of brick in the 1750s.

As in the story of the Three LIttle Pigs, brick structures indicate strength and permanence. Brick structures on the SpaceMouse layout should follow a logical pattern. An 1860's logging camp likely wouldn't have brick buildings. A mining operation may have some brick buildings if it appeared the operation might last a while & make some money. Perhaps an office or a mill structure susceptible to fire. One-industry towns likely wouldn't have brick structures in the early years but as money flowed into town, industries would begin building in brick for structural or fire safety reasons and merchants might begin building with the material.

In the cities, the use of brick would have been widespread by then. West coast cites of the 1860's whose history began later than the East Coast cities would obviously have fewer brick structures during their early years.

Wayne

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TurboOne

Mister Beasley caught you Chip. Now you have to take a new picture where it is on the track

You aren't accusing me of staging a picture are you?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: A mining operation may have some brick buildings if it appeared the operation might last a while & make some money. Perhaps an office or a mill structure susceptible to fire. One-industry towns likely wouldn't have brick structures in the early years but as money flowed into town, industries would begin building in brick for structural or fire safety reasons and merchants might begin building with the material.

Actually, I was think more of a pulp mill and banks in the city and engine houses.

And there is this little micro-brewery called "Red-Tail Ale" that might find it's way onto the layout. Obviously the lumber structures would be wood.

Okay, it's really rough, but this is what I'm thinking. The over all size is about 20 x 14. The lower level (black) is 30" wide. The upper level (blue) is 20" wide. The wierd shape of the top shelf in the logging area is where the upper level transitions into a mountain on the logging part.

[Anonymous]

Also, fire had a lot to do with brick versus wood construction. In Colorado, after a disasterous fire the city fathers would pass and ordinance banning wood structures. So many of the mining towns there had brick buildings versus the wood buildings that were there early on. This was true of Denver, Central City, Blackhawk etc. Georgetown due to their fine fire department still has the wood structures back from the Gold and Silver mining days. (The Sugar Pine Models Alpine Fire House was based on the Georgetown Building.)

It would be a good idea to check the history of the area you are modeling to see if frame or brick structures predominate.

Rick

[twhite]

California figured out the 'brick thingy' about the time Padre Serra and the rest of the Franciscans came up from Mexico to establi***he Missions about 1770 or so. Early miners figured out the 'brick thingy' about the 1850's when the mining camps started burning down around them. Most of the towns in the Mother Lode and Northern Mines area were largely brick by the 1860's, so were larger towns like Benicia, Sacramento and San Francisco. San Francisco found that bricks and earhtquake faults don't really get along together in 1858 and again in 1907, but that didn't seem to stop the 'brick thingy' there, until about forty years ago when earthquake standards were improved. Sacramento and the Sierra foothills just re-enforced their 'brick thingies' and turned them into Historical Monuments. in fact, the entire downtown area of my home town (Nevada City, which despite its name is in the California Sierra foothills) has been declared an Historical Monument, 'brick thingies', wood-frame 'false-fronts' and all. Sure looks cute!
Tom [:D][:D]

[SpaceMouse]

Tom,

ROFLMAS

Oh, uh last time I went to Sutters Fort it was made of wood. But they could have remodeled it since then. That was about 35 years ago. Is there still a McDonald's across the street?

[twhite]

Spacemouse: Wood? Are we talking about the same fort? All those adobe walls are actually brick underneath. You're right, though, there's a lot of wood framing holding up those 'brick thingies' (chuckle, chuckle). Uh--no, on the Macdonalds, just my Parish (St. Francis) to the north, and the First Congregational to the west. I think there's a little sandwich shop across K street on the corner. The Fort is still a major tourist attraction despite the fact that it's not the original (the original was about a half-mile closer to the American River), but it's a pretty neat replica. Of course we get our share of Texans announcing that it's not nearly as impressive as the Alamo, LOL, but we just inform them that our 1848 'revolution' was a lot less lively than theirs. Seems to pacify them.
Tom

[twhite]

Spacemouse--a PS: Are you perhaps thinking about Fort Ross up on the Mendocino Coast? That was built by Russian fur traders in the late 1700's (we've had a LOT of visitors over the years!), and is made out of wood. Looks like one of those old forts you'd see in a western movie--very cool! And I think there's a MacDonald's nearby.
Tom

[SpaceMouse]

Well, I'll be danged. They did change it. This is sure enough adobe.

[SpaceMouse]

I was born in Medicino, but spent my childhood in Yuba City/Marysville Area. One of my friends and I would go to Sutter's fort a couple times a year and right after go to the McDonalds and fill up on the 19 cent hamburgers. We would have 4-6 depending on the day. The McDonalds part was the real reason for the trip, we just told our parents we wanted to go to the fort so they would take us.

[DSchmitt]

Historic postcards Marysville, CA showing brick buildings
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/ca/yuba/postcards/ppcs-yuba.html

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DSchmitt

Historic postcards Marysville, CA showing brick buildings
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/ca/yuba/postcards/ppcs-yuba.html

Any idea of the dates on these postcards?

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Oh, uh last time I went to Sutters Fort it was made of wood. But they could have remodeled it since then. That was about 35 years ago. Is there still a McDonald's across the street?

Indeed, Sutter's Fort was never made of wood, and there was not a McDonald's across the street. There is one about two blocks away (30th and K) but not across the street. I have photos of Sutter's Fort from 1947 that still show the adobe construction, as well as postcards dating back to the 1920s.

Only the building in the center is original--the rest is all a reconstruction done around 1911.

There is no shortage of brick buildings built after 1906 in California--they generally have concrete or metal framework if over 2 or 3 stories tall--the Elks Building, the SP Depot, the Memorial Auditorium, the Red Men Building, etcetera. Many downtown buildings were built out of bricks used as ballast by river freighters stopping in Sacramento.

Earthquake really wasn't a serious concern in the Central Valley--we barely felt the 1989 quake, or any of the other shakings-up that have happened.

But even in San Francisco, there are still brick buildings dating from before and after 1906, generally brick with the aforementioned cast-iron or concrete construction underneath. Take a look at the actual history of the San Francisco earthquake--the fire after the earthquake did much, much more damage than the earthquake itself!

As far as the northcoast is concerned: Humboldt Brewery (the folks who make Red Tail Ale) is of fairly recent vintage--1980's rather than 1880's. Brick would have been used for structures like a brewery, an enginehouse could have been either brick or wood, and a lumber mill would almost certainly be wooden.

Pulp mills on the northcoast would also have been kind of an oddity--most of the Northcoast loggers logged redwoods, and redwood doesn't make good paper.

[johncolley]

For those interested, The rebuilding of San Francisco after the 1906 quake was done with bricks from Benicia and Port Costa. The Port Costa brick works is still in business!

[SpaceMouse]

Jetrock, leave it to you to destroy a good fantasy with the truth. McDonald's might have been down the street a little.

The Red Tale Ale was definately much later.Started in 1983 and was the Mendicino Brewing Comany. My brother and I would stop in Hopland on the way up North to Arcata.

I didn't know that about redwood pulp. I kinda thought there was some douglas fir being cut in the same area.

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by DSchmitt

Historic postcards Marysville, CA showing brick buildings
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/ca/yuba/postcards/ppcs-yuba.html

Any idea of the dates on these postcards?

The latest are around 1940, Here is a link that has two more views. Many of the buildings date back to the 1860's or earlier.

http://store1.yimg.com/I/mbaciu_1836_2256360

[Jetrock]

Douglas fir was also cut up there, I think much of it was second growth planted where the original clear-cuts had been, but the bottom line is that paper pulp processing is pretty heavy-industrial and for jobs like that logs were generally sent south to the bay area where there was more heavy industry. Many ships didn't actually load the logs onboard, they'd just make a big raft of logs and drag it to San Francisco to be sawn up or what have you. Redwood, I think, was cut up locally because redwood doesn't float too well.

And actually, now that I think of it, the McDonald's down the street from Sutter's Fort was a Burger King until fairly recently, although I can't vouch for 35 years ago--I was still living in Chicago at the time, and not yet on solid food.

Further thunks about it: Smaller buildings might have been brick, but keep in mind that most of the buildings on the Northcoast would have been wood, both because it was cheap and locally available and because brick would probably have to be brought in from elsewhere. A lot of cargo ships carried bricks as ballast, and often these ballast bricks were used locally to build things, so smaller brick buildings would be more common than large ones.

There are some darn good wood buildings out there these days, though. And if a brick building really really suits your fancy, go ahead and use it, I won't tell.

[SpaceMouse]

I was kinda planning on putting a pulp mill next to the yard, but if the logs travelled by ship and not by rail, I think I'll figure some other use of the space. may be a slaughter house. I can put a ranch or two on the upper level.

I still like the idea of a brewery.