Horns of a dilema. I'm hoping you can talk me down from this one. UPDATE

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: HOn30 dual-gauge track is available so that you can still interchange with the Hogwarts.

I didn't know that. I'll bet it is expensive though. Lots of cool stuff in On30.

HOn30 and On30 are not the same thing--HOn30 is HO scale narrow-gauge locomotives running on N-scale track, On30 is O scale narrow-gauge locomotives running on HO scale track. Both are intended to represent 30" gauge locos.

There is no such thing as On30/HO dual-gauge track, since they use the same gauge.

HOn30 is NOT what you want. Almost nothing is available off-the-shelf--either you scratchbuild it, or, if you can find it, buy brass.

Stick to standard gauge. Look into repowering kits, and definitely invest in the Peco track.

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I was actually looking to see how easy it would be to intall Kaydee couplers when I noticed the pick-ups. One on the tender was floating about a 1/16 off the axle. I fixed that and looked at the IHC 4-4-0. Same thing, different axel.

That'll do it! [:D]

[SpaceMouse]

You know sometimes you should just look at something before you get worked up. I turned over the Bachman 4-4-0 and looked at the underside. I was actually looking to see how easy it would be to intall Kaydee couplers when I noticed the pick-ups. One on the tender was floating about a 1/16 off the axle. I fixed that and looked at the IHC 4-4-0. Same thing, different axel.

I have been working on my Mother Hubbard consist, so I haven't tested it yet, but I feel better already.

[bikerraypa]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: HOn30 dual-gauge track is available so that you can still interchange with the Hogwarts.

I didn't know that. I'll bet it is expensive though. Lots of cool stuff in On30.

It's not too bad, really. Here are some links:

http://www.hon30.org
http://www.bnfhoby.com
http://www.hon30.org/trackfaq.htm

a lot of European makers do narrow gauge as well. HOn30, HOn2 1/2 and HOe are all the same.

Ray

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Both the 4-4-0's need a nudge to get started. Keep in mind that these are two different brands and the IHC is of the Premiere line. They both get stuck on turnouts when their tenders cross as slow speeds. Get up to 1/3 throttle and they get through with hesitation, but you can't back into or out of sidings without the aid of the great skyhook. In other words, they are only good for constant motion running. You can't even stop for passengers

JPM335, It does matter. The reason these locos do not run up to the standard that SpaceMouse wants is because they are small, light locomotives, and do not have all wheel pick up. That is why they need a nudge to get going (they are not making contact with the rails with the wheels that have pick ups) and they "hang" at the turnouts on him (again because they are not making contact with half the wheels. Yes! You can convert them to DCC without adding pickups to the wheels. And yes, they will run exactly as SpaceMouse is describing. It isn't DCC that is the problem, they are not good running locos in DC either. I have locos like that over 30 years old. Thats the way they ran 30 years ago, and thats the way they run today. They are now static models on my layout (if there at all) and my motive power is now newer all wheel pickup locos. Ones that I don't have to nudge, pound on the benchwork, or push around my layout to get going. [:D]

[Anonymous]

Spacemouse,

I share your frustration with poor running locos. I'm sure that I'm going to take some flack for this, but here goes: The stuff that you have that doesn't run well is basically old steamer technology and inexpensive at that . These locos are the reason that I consider this to be the golden age of plastic steam. The IHC/MDC stuff just doesn't run well (will it creep reliably?) when compared to the recent Spectrum, BLI and P2K stuff. There are lots of reasons for this, poor pick up, drive train design etc..... but the bottom line is the technology has been passed by. The poor running characteristics are made worse by the short wheel bases and smaller size of your locos. Converting these to DCC in hopes of better running disregards one of the rules of DCC conversion: A loco must run well analog to be a good DCC runner.

Your options are to back date some of the newer plastic (Spectrum 2-6-0 comes to mind ), spend a lot of time trying to fix up the IHC stuff, buy older brass and do some work on it to make it run well. None of these are appealing options but they all can be done. If you want to keep the IHC/MDC, fit them with all wheel pick up in the tender at least.

If you buy old brass, get some guys who know the brass locos from the era you are looking at. There are some sweet runners out there and some real dogs as well. Most will require some work to run well and to convert to DCC. Hopefully you can find some painted models. One advantage of brass is that it will most likely look even better than what you have now in terms of proto accuracy and detail.

Personally, I would try to backdate the current Spectrum and other offerings. At least you are getting a good mechanism and an easy conversion to DCC.

My 2 cents,

[Don Gibson]

MOUSE:

Your turnouts have isolated frogs - they're dead. Consequently short wheel based locomotives, or locomotives with compromisied or limited electrical pickup, will stall.

ANSWER is to power to the frogs .

SOME turnout's have a place to wire, some don't . You may have to replace.
You'll need a SPDT switch point's within the throwIng device.

Tortoise has, Rix has, caboose (ground throws) has one that does, Atlas does not . Their powering relays add power drain that may require a second dedicated supply.

SOLVE one problem at a time.

[Anonymous]

on the topic of IHC:

They are not all wheel pickup, but it doesnt matter, I have converted several IHCs to DCC for my father with no modification to pickups.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: HOn30 dual-gauge track is available so that you can still interchange with the Hogwarts.

I didn't know that. I'll bet it is expensive though. Lots of cool stuff in On30.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: My LHS owner has said to me that none of the IHC are "all Wheel" pickup and are not DCC ready.

Sorry if I implied they are. What I said is that I have one already converted to DCC. The two Mother Hubbards should convert the same way. The MDC 2-6-0 and Heisler are plug and play. The 4-6-0 I will build with a decoder in it somewhere.

[bcammack]

I seem to recall that people have added surreptitious wipers to the undercarriage of locomotives to enhance power pickup. I have a similar problem with my infatuation with N scale critters.

[howmus]

Hi, Me again!!

I looked up the IHC locos at the IHC site and there is no mention of them being DCC ready. My LHS owner has said to me that none of the IHC are "all Wheel" pickup and are not DCC ready. The only locos that I see in your collection that may be all wheel pick up are the heistler and the MDC 2-6-0. If you have the kit 4-6-0 from MDC it wasn't DCC ready. I got a kit MDC 4-4-0 last year and it is pick up on 2 one side in the loco and the other side in the tender. It will never be put together! I have an MDC 2-6-0 and it is also very picky about clean rails and track problems (as in give it a little push now and then) but it is DCC ready as in all wheel pickup as well as having a NMRA connector in the tender. I managed to get a DH-123 decoder in my MDC 2-6-0 as I had already "enlarged " the inside of the tender when I tried to use the Aristocraft HOTE system. The DZ decoders should work well though. I still think a lot of your problems with the locos are from not having all the wheels picking up power from the rails (notice the ones that do run well). I do wish manufacturers would come out with some good running old time steam locos..... I love 'em!

Enjoy those trains! I love the threads you write and the sharing you do!

[56chevytimes2]

Are the little4-4-0's the ones with a driveshaft running from teder to engine. If so then the moter is in the tender. I have one like that and have a boxcar permently coupled to it , decoder inside and I used the box's wheels for power pick up also. No stall problems and smooth runner.I added a little wait by filling the stack with pourable lead (looks like shot).

[bikerraypa]

Mouse:

I feel your pain, bro. I just CANNOT find the "exact fit" for the pieces I need, so I'll end up having to kitbash a lot of it or just do without. Why the heck doesn't anybody make anything as common as a Pennsy H10s Consolidation?? You'd think they'd be everywhere! But they aren't, so, I do more than one era.

I'm lucky in that my prototype was a pretty static road. The WA didn't change much from 1902 through 1992. The vast majority of the homes in my township were here in 1902, so except for the paved road, the area looks the same. I have a photo of my little hamlet here from 1907, and you could pretty much superimpose a modern pic on top.

That allows me a lot of flexibility in era. I can be running B&LE F-units pulling battleship hoppers, swap the F's out for Pennsy steam and an NX23 caboose, or run a 4-4-0 pulling some wooden gondolas, and it doesn't take much change. Depending on what vehicles and figures I have on the layout, it can be anywhere from 1902 to 1992, no problem. [:)]

So, you might consider that. I will basically have three railroads in the space of one, and be able to run a variety of equipment as well.

The other thing you might think about is, considering the fact that you dig 19th century logging pikes, sell the HO stuff and go with On30. Or, even better, re-lay with N-scale track and do HOn30. HOn30 dual-gauge track is available so that you can still interchange with the Hogwarts. Lots of WAAAAAYY cool power is out there in narrow gauge, like Climaxes and C36's, and most rolling stock can be converted simply by changing out the trucks. Plus, your structures and figures will still be to scale.

Whatever you decide on, good luck!!

Ray

p.s. Indiana? I hadn't noticed that. If you're ever around Kittanning we'll grab a coffee and talk trains. [:D]

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: One of the biggest problems that you are having is that none of these locos are DCC ready meaning, among other things that only half (or less) of the wheels on the tender and loco are picking up power from the rails.

That is not exactly true. The IHC 4-4-0 (the bigger one) is already and The MDC 2-6-0 and the Heisler are DCC plug and pray. When I build the MDC 4-6-0, it will be DCC. I'm assuming that the two Mother Hubbards will be an easy fit. So that just leaves the little 4-4-0s and the 0-4-0. I'm planning on using N scale decoders in the tenders of the Americans. The 0-4-0 if I decide to keep it in the line-up will get one in the tender as well.

[howmus]

Hi SpaceMouse,

You have stumbled upon the reason I finally gave up the pre-USRA era. One of the biggest problems that you are having is that none of these locos are DCC ready meaning, among other things that only half (or less) of the wheels on the tender and loco are picking up power from the rails. Hence the erratic behavior of the models. the least amount of dirt or problem with the track will cause the loco to quit. As far as I can see, the only DCC ready locos that fit that time period are: Bachman Spectrum 0-6-0 saddletank switcher (needs to have old headlight kit-bashed), Bachman Spectrum 2-8-0 (actually USRA period), Bachman spectrum 4-6-0 (headlight needs to be changed) (There may be some others, I just can't find them). I would suggest that you could greatly improve the running of your locos if you can install all-wheel pickup......

It is really too bad that those of us that like the really old stuff have so little in the way of good running locos to choose from. I have an absolutely beautiful running (and very pricey) 20+ year old Sunset Models 2-8-0 brass loco that I found last year. After talking to several people about what it would take to convert it to DCC, it will become one of my "display" locos that will will be on a couple non-powered tracks I will have on my pike (yes I know I can run one DC loco with my Digitrax DCC). Anyway, just wanted to let you know, I feel your pain and frustration! [banghead]

[fiatfan]

The metal frogs will definitely make a difference. I have a couple of four wheel switchers that constantly stall out on the Atlas switches. I run them double headed to solve the problem short term but will probably have to replace my turnouts with Micro Engineering or other metal frog turnouts.

Tom

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Graduate from the Bachmann Track and go to Cork and Nickel Silver track with Peco Turnouts or at least Atlas turnouts with metal frogs.

That is a given. I started out with Bachman EZ because that is what came with the Hogwarts. There was a point where I had on order the $175 worth of EZ turnouts that I almost cancelled the order. Now as soon as the layout mainline is in, the EZ comes out and gets thrown lock stock into the great eBay.

Will the metal frogs make a difference with the small 4-4-0s?

QUOTE: So.. thus I may take all the steam off the layout and change the time to mid to late 1980's for a while.

One of the things I like about the early steamers is that 18" radii mean nothing to them. I may have to rethink and plan for the occational '72 passenger car pulled by my BLI E7.

[Anonymous]

I inclined to follow the majority here because there is no reason why you cannot have a 1890's or older area on your layout. It will provide a nice contrast to the later steam and early desiel.

If I saw a old 4-4-0 slowly moving several coaches towards the logging town while down on the main below the BLI J1 rushes by with a manifest train bound for faraway places... I probably will resolve it as the area is "lost in time" and uses older technology.

Your stable is a wonderful one. Your views of each locomotive shows you understand each and every one of them. Good points and bad points.

Motive power may be the stars that makes your railroad run. But I offer the humble opinion that perhaps it is time to....

Graduate from the Bachmann Track and go to Cork and Nickel Silver track with Peco Turnouts or at least Atlas turnouts with metal frogs.

These are just my thoughts.

I feel bottom line that your heart is truly with the late 1800's something not many modelers run. MR has done a good job in the past covering the era you want to model.

I model late steam. But due to the increasing numbers of "modern" rolling stock I have decided that a set of modern desiels would handle these cars and not be so "out of place" on a train. So.. thus I may take all the steam off the layout and change the time to mid to late 1980's for a while.

I just think of our children's children growing up to ask each other wow did they boil water to haul trains?! Or use wind to power sail vessels which is a rapidly fading set of skills known to man that is preserved with the "Tall Ships"

[SpaceMouse]

I might put this out as a separate topic if no one pickes up on it.

The problem with the small 4-4-0s is the size of the tender wheels at about 5/16th inch in diameter. OF course they are also the pick-up wheels. I haven't torn into either one yet, but I'm guessing that only one of the wheel sets is used as the pick-ups for power. Assuming that to be true:

1) Can I run a pick-up to the other two wheels and eliminate the problem in the turnouts.

2) How hard would that be?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

Logging sites used a lot of cast-off locos from other railroads, but could not use their larger locos because of their limited roadbeds, hence you saw lots of light switchers (no leading or trailing trucks to get in the way), along with a lot of home made equipment.or remakes of old railway equipment.

I'm not really worried about the logging part of the layout. The Heisler and a future Shay will fill that bill. It is the rest of the layout I'm concerned about.

[tatans]

Logging sites used a lot of cast-off locos from other railroads, but could not use their larger locos because of their limited roadbeds, hence you saw lots of light switchers (no leading or trailing trucks to get in the way), along with a lot of home made equipment.or remakes of old railway equipment.

[Bikerdad]

Done properly, you can actually do both. Many of the western logging towns have been very slow to modernize their buildings and infrastructure, so you can use the same layout with just a few "hot swappable" buildings for both eras, and "removable" asphalt for Main Street and a few other streets. Heck, up there in Silverton (or is it Durango?), Colorado, most of the streets are gravel. Just change out your locos and rolling stock. The mountains, trees, streams, meadows, etc all remain the same.

[METRO]

I seem to remember that Bachman Spectrum made a really great shay a few years ago, that could probably be backdated to look good enough on your line.

The January 2002 issue of MR had quite a bit about modeling the turn of the 20th century in it including a great layout set in 1906. Some of the locomotives included on that line were: Roundhouse 2-8-0s, PFM 4-4-0 Renos, PFM Centennials, and a Roundhouse 2-6-0 that was actually backdated to a 4-4-0. Most of the locomotives on the line were repowered with Northwest Shore Line gears and Sagami motors, which is something you could try. Also remember, just because it's out of production does not mean it can't be found on something like E-Bay.

I wish you luck with your line, the 1800s in general are very under-modeled and what you learn will be of great help to the hobby as a whole.

~METRO

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by joseph2

I don't have any 4-4-0's,but I have other old small steam and 1950's Diesels.What sort of turnouts are you using ? A lot of my engines used to stall on Atlas turnouts so I replaced the worst ones with Peco turnouts.Sometimes I run trains with 1920 power other days I use First Generation diesels.I dom't have any modern buildings so old time trains don't look too out of place.My smallest steamers are a MDC 0-6-0 and a IHC Premier 2-6-0.

The 1920's 4-4-0 is probably twice as long as the 4-4-0s in the picture. Even the litlle 2-6-0 does not have a problem.

The turnouts are Bachman EZ track.

[joseph2]

I don't have any 4-4-0's,but I have other old small steam and 1950's Diesels.What sort of turnouts are you using ? A lot of my engines used to stall on Atlas turnouts so I replaced the worst ones with Peco turnouts.Sometimes I run trains with 1920 power other days I use First Generation diesels.I dom't have any modern buildings so old time trains don't look too out of place.My smallest steamers are a MDC 0-6-0 and a IHC Premier 2-6-0.

[selector]

By now you know I am new to this, Space mouse, so I offer some opinion with considerable temerity....and respect.

I feel that the lynchpin, so to speak, of any model railroad is the very thing that makes everything move; the locos. You have stated, clearly, that you favour greatly the reliability, sounds, and beauty of your more modern locos. I have a BLI J1e, and it is the jewel of my road. So, maybe you should bite the bullet and lean...but only lean... towards the more modern era for the sake of your confidence and investment in them.

You can still have a spur or area that is an enclave of 1890's work and technology. Do it up well, and there's no reason you can't get all of the benefit from it that you had hoped or intended! Think of an older company that is still making a go of things in 1936, and your lovingly refurbished engines, as you complete them, will still do the work that they ought to do for that industry. Remember, 0-6-0s were around for a long time, but the basic configuration was well established way back when...

Does this help you settle it a bit?

-Crandell

[SpaceMouse]

I could use the voice of experieince here.

My ideal layout would be a 1890's lumber operation and, with the new space my wife has seceded, several related and unrelated industries–with the obligitory link-up with Hogwart's version of London. The problem is that the MRR industry has it's focus on other eras and I find very little to work with. Couple that with the fact that the locomotives I have parked at my club are far superior to what I have been able to get for the 1890's era.

I've decided to scratch build all the structures so that is not a problem. The fact that none of the horses I've seen have saddles is something I have yet to solve. Most horses in the layout will be tied in front of businesses and they have to have saddles. And all the cowboy figures I've seen are either rearing their horses or shooting their pistols in the air.

Now I have to step back and tell you that I have two BLI engines and a P2K Switcher that run like dreams. The SW1 is smooth at speeds that would bore a snail to death. They are purely a pleasure to drive. To these I have to compare what I've found to be available for the era I want to model. Here is my stable.



They are in order:

Bachman 4-4-0 American–Central Pacific
IHC 4-4-0 American--Hinkley
MDC 2-6-0--Southern Pacific
Rivarossi 2-Truck Heisler–Coos Bay Lumber
IHC 0-4-0--A T & SF
IHC 2-6-0 Camelback-- A T & SF
IHC 2-6-0 Camelback-- Southern Pacific
IHC 4-4-0-- A T & SF
MDC 4-6-0 Kit–Soon to become Hogwart's Express

Of the batch, only the 0-4-0 is set up for wood burning. You'd think the Heisler with Coos Bay on the side would be a wood burner although I can convert it to oil. But the real problem is that none of them perform to the standards of my club locomotives.

Both the 4-4-0's need a nudge to get started. Keep in mind that these are two different brands and the IHC is of the Premiere line. They both get stuck on turnouts when their tenders cross as slow speeds. Get up to 1/3 throttle and they get through with hesitation, but you can't back into or out of sidings without the aid of the great skyhook. In other words, they are only good for constant motion running. You can't even stop for passengers.

The MDC 2-6-0 and Heisler are the best running of the lot with the Heisler approaching the quality of the club engines. The MDC runs well but doesn't have the power to pull it's pants up, although I think it might be a weight issue. On a 3% grade it can pull about 4 1890s cars before slipping. My solution is to limit the grades to 2%

The IHC 0-4-0 is the only IHC that is not in the Premiere line. The paint job is awful, but the performance is not so bad. I would use it as a switcher, but it does not have a front coupler. I haven't decided whether I'm going to kitbash one on. Bachman makes a Spectrum 0-6-0, but I haven't figured out if it fits my time period yet or not. There are a couple different models at reasonable prices. The switchers might be the most important pieces in the layout.

The two Camelbacks seem to run smooth at moderately low speeds and I was planning to use them in a consist to hump the freight cars up out of the staging yard to the classification yard and then down again. But they simply might be needed on the main layout.

The IHC 4-4-0 (not the old time) my daughter wants to paint red to become the Hogwarts Freight engine. It pulls pretty well. I don't see a big problem.

The MDC 4-6-0 will just have to pull the two passenger cars. Of the bunch it will probably have the most power and have the easiest time of it.

But my Broadways and P2Ks loom heavy in my mind. The quality is a lot better and because of that they are a pleasure to run (not to mention the sound). So I'm thinking of converting the operation into a more modern era. It would certainly be easier all the way around: from engines, to rolling stock, to structures, to figures to vehicles. Most importantly, I can use my nice engines.

But I want the romance of the frontier and I have a lot invested in that era so far.

I think if I could just get the little 4-4-0 Americans to run, I'd feel better.