Proto 2000 Weirdness: ARrrghh! Ricker Frocker Socker Mumble Mumble.

[SpaceMouse]

I have a Proto 2000 F2 a/b unit with Digitrax DCC. The A unit sounds like the coil is rubbing against the frame when it runs.

The B unit when it is set on the track activates everything with a DCC converter, thne shorts the track. This cycles every 10 seconds or so. At the club there must have been 30 locos that turned one. On swithcher pushed a bunch of rolling stock into the turntable pit.

This is not the first trouble the B unit has had. It ran okay on DC, but when I put a decoder in it it ran about 12 feet and died. Digitrax was kind enough to send a new decoder.

[Anonymous]

What do you mean by a coil exactly?

On the B unit, if you put in the decoder just by plugging it into the circuit board, the trouble is in the plug. Take the plug off and just hard wire it to the engine and see if that fixes your problem. To me it sounds like some solder or something bridging something on the circuit board.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JPM335

What do you mean by a coil exactly?

I was being a little weird there. I meant the electro magnetic coil in the center of the motor, but if I were really to guess, I'd say the gears are probably not meshing quite right. But it sound downright nasty.

QUOTE: On the B unit, if you put in the decoder just by plugging it into the circuit board, the trouble is in the plug. Take the plug off and just hard wire it to the engine and see if that fixes your problem. To me it sounds like some solder or something bridging something on the circuit board.

I'll take a look. The plug on my P2K S1 uses solderless connections, I'll check those connections as well.

[Fergmiester]

Haunted I'd say! That or Gremlins.

[simon1966]

The B unit sounds like there is a short in it somewhere. Have you done a really carefull check with an Ohm meter to make sure that the motor is isolated from the rail pick up?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

The B unit sounds like there is a short in it somewhere. Have you done a really carefull check with an Ohm meter to make sure that the motor is isolated from the rail pick up?

No, but then again it is supposed to be plug and pray and I shouldn't have to.

I have an ohm meter. If you tell me where to put the pointy things I'll check it out.

[Anonymous]

The orange wire is in the number 1 hole isn't it?

[simon1966]

If there is one thing I have learned with decoder installation, it is that you can not be too careful. My experience is not great (10 decoders installed so far), but I have learned that all is not always what it seems to be.

I don't know this specific loco, but my procedure is as follows after installing the decoder:

1. I place the loco on a spare bit of track, shell off and my decoder installation exposed. I clip one lead of my ohm meter to one rail and touch the other probe to the motor can, then the lugs where the motor power wires attatch to the motor. I want to ensure that there is no path from the motor to the rail directly.

2. Repeat the same for the other rail.

In your case, I would try this with and without the decoder plugged in, to see if the problem is as mentioned above, due to a short in the plug.

3. Then I move to my programming track and ensure I can read and write CV's.

One thing to check, is to see if in your installation, Plug and Pray is a simple as suggested. Sometimes there is a jumper to move, or even a track to cut on the circuit board.

http://www.gatewaynmra.org/dcc/engines/p2k-fa1.htm

If this is what the installation looks like, is the decoder orientated correctly?

[simon1966]

INFORMATION 8-13: Locomotives with Connectors.

Some locomotives have this connector wired wrong. So look for a pin 1.

If you are to wire up your own harness, here are the NRMA colors that should be connected to the appropriate pins. Again, watch that pin orientation!

4 3 2 1
5 6 7 8

4 Black 3 No connection 2 Yellow 1 Orange

5 Gray 6 White 7 Blue 8 Red

I found this on the wiring for DCC page. Could this be the problem?

[trainboyH16-44]

I also have a problem with my protos, but it's with the 1000 C-Liners. When they are going downhill, they slow down and make a grinding noise. It gets worse the more locos there are, and there is no problem running light. Are the locos lagging? What is happening, and how can I fix it?
Trainboy

[SpaceMouse]

Guys,

I'll take a closer look at it. I searched for a demarcated pin number before i put it on, but either was non-existant, or even with my glasses I couldn't see it or any indication.

I did bring home the F2A and it works (although it sounds like it is going to puke) and I can compare orientations.

So on to the FA1. I want the noise to stop.

[Anonymous]

TrainboyH16-44,
Are you using DCC and do you have these units consisted together? If so, they probably need their speeds matched up more evenly. I run mine thru the throttle range with the units uncoupled and about a foot apart. See how well they maintain this diatance. Make adjustments to the speed tables CV-66 thru 94. It is time consuming, but will save your locos from wear and tear fighting each other.

[tstage]

Chip,

Is the decoder hard-wired in the FA1, or is it attached to a 8-pin socket? If it is, are the wires "clipped" onto the plug or soldered?

With advice from our pal Randy, I soldered my decoder wires instead of using the plastic insulating clips to hold them to the tabs on the 8-pin socket. I also made sure that neither the decoder or wires had any metal to come into contact with. I used electrical tape to insulate the back of the 8-pin socket, as well as underneath the socket on the frame.

I'm just wondering whether there is either an intermittent somewhere near the decoder (e.g. a cold solder joint) or some wire is touching bare metal. Let us know what you find out.

Tom

[trainboyH16-44]

Tweet469,
I do not run DCC, and my engines are analog. They only intermittently grind, and only going downhill. I have a layout with 24" radius curves and a 2.2% grade on the helix,and a 2.5% grade on the sceniked section.
Trainboy

[SpaceMouse]

Okay, the B unit was aligned the same as the A unit, so I assume it was correct. I turned my meter to continuity tester and found that there was a bridge between 3 and 4 on the socket, but that should not matter because 3 is empty.

[SpaceMouse]

I put the B unit on the track with the DC circuit back in. It ran fine.

I put the A unit on the track and ti make the same noise. I upt lube on the moving parts. Unfortunately I didn't have my galsses on and what ai thought was a u-join turned out to be the brushes. It slowed down and stopped. What do I do about that dumb mistake?

[rrinker]

Dab it off with a q-tip or something. The "or something" is preferred as the q-tip will leave little fibers. A TINY drop of labelle oil on the commutator is actually GOOD, more than a tiny drop is not.

The noisy unit caould be the split gear problem. Is it sort of a thump thump thump as it rolls? If so, oe of the axle gears has probably cracked. Disassembly is a bear, but Life Like should send replacement parts, probably for free, if that's what's wrong.

I don't know what could possibly be wrogn with eh B unit that would cause a problem with other DCC locos on the track. Can't say I ever heard of that.

There should NOT be any short between 3 and 4. Some P2K sockets have a short between 3 and 7, because it makes their DC diode boards work, and normally pin 3 of the 8 pin socket is designated as having no connection. But some decoders connect F1 through this pin - those that do, combined with a loco that has this short, results in a blown function output if you accidently turn on that function. Does your decoder have something wired to pin 3? Because of 3 and 4 or shorted together, that's putting the function output on pin 3 directly to the rail which is connected to pin 4. That could cause wierd behavior, if it doesn;t smoke the decoder.


--Randy

[SpaceMouse]

The problem as not the lube. I seem to have smoked another decoder. I pulled the decoder off the A unit, put in the DC board and it runs fine on DC.

These Digitrax decoders don't sem to work well with DC. In first the B and now the A, they both ran a ways then stopped never to go again. Funny the S1 also has a Digitrax decoder and it runs fine on DC.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Okay, the B unit was aligned the same as the A unit, so I assume it was correct. I turned my meter to continuity tester and found that there was a bridge between 3 and 4 on the socket, but that should not matter because 3 is empty.

How could you say such a thing!!![:0] If there is nothing in a socket then you dont want power there. A bridge would be putting power where you dont want it. BAD. To fix the bridge heat up the solder and then scrape it off. hopefully the misrouted power didnt hurt anything.

[Anonymous]

Oh by the way, if you want decoders that work just as good on DC as DCC check out TCS ( www.tcsdcc.com ) They're all I use and i run them as much on DC as DCC with no problems.

[SpaceMouse]

These suckers were brand new and I put the DCC in before they even ran on my DC track. They were for use at my club which is a DCC Super Chief.

Anyway, I just tried running the A and B unites together, but not connected. The B unit is twice as fast as the A. I'm going to call Lifelike and see if I can get them fixed. these are supposed to be good quality Locmotives and I have not seen it.

[Anonymous]

I think the speed problem is a problem with the decoder. And even if it is the engine, you can easily fix the problem with a little programming. Compare your speed tables on the two engines. If they are not the same. Make them the same. If they are the same and the engines still dont run together, set the faster engine to go slower than the slower engine on a given speed step. This is most easily done with a computer and a cable to connect it to your command station being that each speed step is it's own CV and there are 128 of them, but it can be done without the computer if you have lots of spare time

[SpaceMouse]

The speed difference is without the decoders--just the DC circuit boards.

[Anonymous]

OK, but you can play with the programming on the decoders and make them run together.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JPM335

OK, but you can play with the programming on the decoders and make them run together.

That would be an option, I agree. When I first read it, it seemed like a great idea. But I haven't had both decoders working yet. Right now neither works. The A unit has some sort of noise denoting friction bad enough to make it run at half the speed of the B unit. For new equipment, it falls short of what I'd expect from Proto 2000.