A Timesaver Shelf Layout

[Anonymous]

After talking to myself about getting back into this hobby for over a year now, I've finally got a plan.

As a kid, my Dad & I started 3 HO 4 x 8 layouts. I also had an N scale 2 x 4 layout.

I don't think I've tallied it up before, but wow, that was 4 layouts! NONE of them made it past track, ballast, and a little bit of plaster on chicken wire.

Now I'm married, with a 1st kid on the way (we're extremely excited!), and in the process of starting my own consulting business. But I STILL want to get back into this hobby! Seeing everyones layout progress on this site is killing me!

If there's one thing I've learned the past few years - it's if you think you're too busy for something, it's too bad, you just have to cram it into your life anyway - you can't wait to be ready for something.

Considering my shady past of finishing layouts, this time I'm going to bite of something I could fully chew, digest, and spit out. I don't want to spend a lot of time or money on it (heck, I'd love to, but can't do either).

I'm going with a Timesaver - in HO scale. I've been an armchair guy for many years now, and I definately want a shelf type layout. Part of the reason my Dad and I may not have gotten past white plaster was we were very lacking in switching - in hindsight, I think he was more of a toy-train type guy - didn't care about scenery or switching or anything. He was happy with plywood & some cool assembled buildings & rolling stock.

So I'm planning on a timesaver, with a main line running in front of it. I'll attach two curves at the end of the shelf, and they will loop behind the layout, or possibly in front of it (in which case they'd wrap around me. So basically, the "main line" track will be a big oval with a timesaver attached to it, with only one section of it scenicked.

The "loop" section will be unscenicked, and could possibly even evolve into staging. It will also be easily detachable if I want to get the loop out of the way, and will only take seconds to set up. (taking time to setup will equal no running - I know myself too well).

I figure the Timesaver will give me lots of opportunities for switching fun, and a main line running in front of it will allow me to have a 2nd train "orbiting" on the main on a seperate power pack.

This will allow me to run big 6 axle diesels or whatever I want on the main. There was an article in MR 10 years or so ago about a layout being a "stage" with trains appearing on the stage, then disappearing on the other side. My timesaver & main line will be the stage. So I could do some serious railfanning as well. I could put a 20 car train on my 8ft long layout this way! Could even make the "staging" area hidden, and throw a timing circuit on there so I don't see the big train every 10 seconds.

Maybe I'll have a sliding sector plate or something in the staging area.

I love looking at the huge layouts in MR, but at this point in my life, they're sort of like looking at fancy cars at a car show or something - nice to look at, but outside of my reality at this time in my life.

Has anyone out there built a timesaver and had fun with it? I found a few websites with track plans involving it. It looks like it could be pretty fun. I'm just looking for some inspiration here.

I found one web page dedicated to bashing it (saying how unreastic it is, etc.) and I found another defending it - noting how unreastic all model railroads are, and accepting that as part of the challenge of having fun with it.

I'm looking for suggestions on incorporating industries into it. A city theme seems pretty likely - lots of dense structures with track crammed into it - but with buildings low enough that I could uncouple cars in there, etc.

Any industry suggestions that make use of many types of cars?

I'd also like to have a dust-curtain built in, as it will be located in the garage. The loop of track could go without - will be cheap flextrack that could be cleaned up with a shop vac.

Darnit, this plan totally neglects my Trolley fascination. Arrrgggghhhh!!!!

OK - maybe if I'm a good boy and fini***his layout, I could add a 2nd module on an upper deck or something that will be a trolley layout... [:p]

[vsmith]

More ideas than you can shake a stick at....

http://carendt.com/

[novacoach]

Get hold of the Ian Rice book on small layouts. As a Brit I am very happy with some of the concepts he shows in his designs but be sure to plan stuff in full size - I think some of his plans may be a bit tight. What he does do is give his layouts a robust theme which helps with many design issues.
FYI I have 3 shelf layouts which I can use in the same 11' x 2' space in my home - the other two are kept out of use in our loft. They are designed so they can operated from in front for home use and behind for exhibitions and I really enjoy the design process. I usually have 6-10 turn outs and I use a fiddle yard. I try to have several routes off the layout - even if one is just an extension of a yard or industry track to give some variety and lots of switching. One smaller layout uses a traverser and is almost a Diorama with 4 tracks running off under a bridge as a view block.
Chris
Modelling New England in the Old one

[Jetrock]

CARRfan: Several points to make...

First of all, the "Timesaver" is NOT the only small shelf layout plan in the world. It's a good start, but there are lots of other ways to make a shelf layout. Carl Arendt's mini layouts page, especially the shelf layouts, should make this clear. Also check out the Yahoo "Small Layout Design" group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/small-layout-design/

Also, check out Atlas' shelf-layout plans: www.atlasrr.com

It should be noted that you are in no way obligated to make a loop. If you want to start out with a shelf layout a foot deep and six feet wide, and do lots of groovy switching, detail it to the max, and then later attach it to a big layout, that's great. But you don't have to. And that small size is easy to work on, easy to move around, and easy to store should you need to.

About trolleys: Trolleys are indeed fascinating, but if you're just getting back into the hobby, start with something that doesn't require trolley wiring. And once your skills are up, you can add some trolley/interurban stuff. Keep in mind that a lot of electric interurban lines carried freight, and later switched over to diesel. So you can have an interurban or commuter trolley putt by on the mainline while your Baldwin-Westinghouse electric freight motor is switching.

About good tiny-space industries: Interchanges and team tracks are your best friends here.

An interchange is a physical connection between your railroad and another railroad--all you need is a length of track that runs off the "edge" of your layout. The advantage is that it needs no building or physical plant, and literally ANY type of freight car can be spotted there. Either another railroad leaves cars on the track for your railroad to pick up (inbound) or your railroad leaves cars on the track for the other railroad to pick up (outbound.)

A team track requires only a freight platform, cheap and easy to buy or build and generally about the same size as a boxcar. A team track is a spot where local railroad customers who don't have a dedicated railroad spur can either deliver products to be shipped via the railroad or pick up products shipped in via the railroad. Adding things like a truck and some boxes adds character, but all you really need is that little dock. Team tracks can receive boxcars, or reefers, or flatcars, or even gondolas or hoppers if you include some equipment for loading/unloading those types of cars. The next step up from a team track is a freight house, which can be a dinky shack or a huge warehouse.

Also, consider flats for industries: if you have a 1' deep shelf, just make a simple backdrop out of some fiberboard, and attach the front wall of your industry, the side with the loading dock, to the backdrop. This way you can have a track that runs up against the back of your layout serve an industry that can appear quite large. Some folks will even use backdrop industries that are just printed pictures of a building, but personally I prefer a little bit of a flat sticking out from the backdrop.

Here's a picture of my shelf layout to give you an idea of what I have done--it is not a Timesaver, but the basic idea of a passing track and some spurs is expressed. There is a second yard module beyond the module seen here, it is kind of in the background in this shot:



If I didn't include the spur that runs to the far left in this shot, the whole thing would fit in 1'x6' of space.

[dwRavenstar]

I've understood that the TimeSaver was designed as a puzzle and it's a lot harder to toss off the front porch than a Rubik's Cube when you get tired of messing with it.

Just a random thought.

[Jetrock]

That is kind of the limitation of the Timesaver--it was designed as a puzzle, not an operating layout--the original Timesaver wasn't even scenicked or detailed, just track on wood. There are plenty of ways to turn a shelf layout into a real working layout, if one merely forgets about making a strict copy of the Timesaver.

[hminky]

DO NOT make a layout with switching puzzles. That part of the layout will become a spider farm very quickly. Design your layout for efficient switching like a real railroad. Switching problems get old, regular switching is fun without the puzzle aspect.
Craig Bisgeier has an interesting article on his website about the Timesaver, besides his site is worth visiting anyway at:

http://www.housatonicrr.com/

Just a thought
Harold

[retsignalmtr]

in model railroad planning 2003 there was an article called timesaver plus switching layout. a nicely decorated modular layout. two sections 16"x45" each. i made a switching area based on this plan for my n scale layout. you can always incorporate it into a larger layout later.

[Anonymous]

Jetrock: A HUGE thank you for the info about tiny industries I could model, as well as the trolley info.

Due to my multiple interests (Huge Southern California 4 6-axle diesel trains as well as tiny east-coast looking city scenes with trolleys running through them), modules seem to be the way to go.

Hminky: Yes, that's the article I was referring to in my original post - about the criticism of the Timesaver.

Someone mentioned the rubicks cube. I like the rubicks cube!

But I do appreciate the warnings about building a timesaver into my layout. I may make it, drive myself crazy, then rip it up - this, I imagine, will be the beauty of such a tiny layout.

Also, I'll be handlaying all of my track, so the only expense in track will be time.

I'm going to order that MRP 2003 today.

And I do have the Iain Rice book - which is awesome! Maybe I'll read through it again, as well as the MRP 2003, and possibly pick a design other than the timesaver. But It sure sounds fun.

And for those who say it's not realistic, neither is a 4x8 layout with a loop on it. Let's be honest: None of our layouts are terribly realistic, but they're fun.

[dwRavenstar]

Were I to have a burning interest in the Timesaver I think I'd build it as a separate entity, operating it as a side interest away from my working pike.

While my old Rubik's Cube helped me pass the time while I was working out minute details for important considerations I often found myself tossing it in the drawer in frustration quite often.

Dave (dwRavenstar)

[Anonymous]

Let's imagine a warehouse the size of a wal mart distribution center. Strip it down and fill the 6 acres with a very realistic railroad in HO scale.

1- It would take 50 years to finish
2- cost so much money
3- running it would feel like work
4- never enough people to staff it.

I'll take the 4x8 thank you =)

I have a short list of industries that will be established on my line, space is a problem so I think some of these will actually be used so ehre goes:

1- Freight LCL House You want to ship THAT WHERE?!
2- TOFC / Public Team Track dont try to ship any more than you can lift

3- Cold storage You can chill out here
4- Icing rack Those reefers are thirsty

5- Stockyards water em and feed em every 36 hours while on train
6- Fertilizer dealer hey that stuff gotta go!

7- Grain elevator and feed mill feeding the cattle and local farmers can ship products.
8- Warehouse for anything you can get into a boxcar

There are others such as the electric coop, gas and oil depot and maybe a coal dealer. I also am considering a river next to the town with a barge that takes ore and stone down river.

If it all does not fit on one section I will simply go thru the corner and start on another section.

The next problem will be building a dispatch sheet to keep this industry set fed and happy.

[conford]

While it is perhaps sensible to consider whether the Timesaver should be a primary layout, and it is a puzzle-based design, it sure is a lot of fun to switch, and the understanding gained from operating one is an asset when approaching other switching problems. John Allen was a genius.

Take a look at the one Charlie Comstock did at:
http://www.bcsj.org/rr/timesaver/index.html
He put scenery on his and it looks great.

I dismantled my first timesaver, but will build another one in the next year or so. I saw one in HO that folds up into a great carrying bag. Somebody send me some Peco small radius Wyes so I can get started ;-)

Cheers
Peter
conford

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by retsignalmtr

in model railroad planning 2003 there was an article called timesaver plus switching layout. a nicely decorated modular layout. two sections 16"x45" each. i made a switching area based on this plan for my n scale layout. you can always incorporate it into a larger layout later.

I built this layout in three months -- full scenery and buildings -- for a show we had in 2004.

Everyone wondered where I had come up with such a clever idea for a layout.

It was perfect for what I wanted at the time -- someplace to run trains while I designed the killer layout.

Well, I am still designing. But I HIGHLY RECOMMEND this layout as an easy way to get back into the game. I built it as two sections and it transported beautifully.

On it, I had a box manufacturer, a cement storage facility, a pencil maker, an oil storage facility, and a facility that received everything else (I wasn't all that fussy!).

Good luck and take pictures!

Pat[:D]

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Due to my multiple interests (Huge Southern California 4 6-axle diesel trains as well as tiny east-coast looking city scenes with trolleys running through them), modules seem to be the way to go.

If you want huge Southern California locomotives and trolleys on the same layout, why not model southern California? The Pacific Electric was one of the most extensive trolley/interurban systems in the country, and while the brass trolleys ain't cheap, they aren't too hrad to find. There were also other trolley systems in southern California, and some of the interurban stuff ran 'way out into the boonies. Running them alongside monster steam engines and big early diesels would be perfectly appropriate.

And if you're modeling modern era, well, you can always model modern light rail vehicles instead...

My layout is sectional rather than modular, but it is designed to all go together as a single, coherent whole. I designed it to be built in pieces to make it easier to get things going a bit at a time.

About the track plan: Look at other model railroad layouts' industrial/switching areas, and prototype dense-track switching areas for inspiration on how to make a switching layout designed for operation. The basic principle will be the same: a runaround track and a couple of spurs.

[Anonymous]

I love huge engines, too. However, I also have a small switching layout ... 2' X 15'. So, small equipment belongs on my railroad. It looks so much better, and the shorter equipment really helps out on the small spurs and stuff, giving more room. Good quality, first generation diesels and 40 and 50' rolling stock, properly tuned, make for alot of quality switching time.

I had Walther's New River Mining building set laying around unbuilt for years, and I was honest with myself that I am not going to have any big layout until I retire, if at all, so I made industrial "flats" out of it.

I have a small how to book on urban railroading .....tracks right in the roadway, in crowded industrial/commercial/port areas, in small areas. Might be an idea.

Big, shiney diesels do make an appearance, but on the interchange track.

I could not resist the clearance price on a BLI M1A Mountain, so that will be here in a couple of days. Just have to incorporate that into my railroad world somehow!

Have fun.
Jim

[vsmith]

Found this over at Carl Arednt's micro-layout webpage, http://carendt.com/

I might gIve this a try in HOn30! click to enlarge


yes, that is a violin case[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Jetrock]

One BIG advantage of a long shelf layout (one that may go across a whole side of the room, or two or three, but isn't very deep) is that most of the track is straight and you can make the curves very wide without taking a huge chunk of the room. This means that you can run really big engines, and they'll look good on the long straight segments and broad curves!

Me, I like small engines. Geeps dwarf most of my motive power...

[Anonymous]

Jetrock & others, you mentioned the basic principle of a switching layout is a runaround track and a bunch of spurs.

Is this a true statement?: all of the spurs should be accessible by a switcher on the runaround track.

Now, if the switcher has to "back into" a turnout that belongs to a particular industry, is that considered "ok"? Or should you realisitcally have enough room before any turnout for the switcher, so it's not tresspassing on industry A's turnout while running around to grab some cars for industry C?

I'm getting a lot of pressure to avoid the timesaver. Maybe I'll make it in addition to my layout. It may be perfect for practicing handlaying turnouts before starting my layout.

[Jetrock]

The track that serves an industry is considered part of the railroad, generally, so it's generally not a problem for engines to enter a spur itself. Sometimes there might be structural reasons not to do so (like a carferry, or a light trestle that won't support an engine) that might necessitate the use of idler flats (a couple of empty flatcars to use as a "handle" to reach out-of-reach cars.)

Generally, the main reason why you should be able to get switching done from the mainline or the passing track is to avoid having to move a car that one has already spotted, and is probably being unloaded.

I'd beg to differ slightly at the suggestion that one never finds two industries that are served by the same spur. It's not the norm, and it is a bigger pain in the neck, but it certainly happens.

Any switching layout would provide good practice at handlaying turnouts--design one that suits your needs if you can't find one that seems suitably practical.