Layout fire

[selector]

Wow, what a scare! I take this to heart because I "went to town" during the past six weeks and completed my 11X 8 layout working (okay, funning) 6 - 9 hours a day. I got so absorbed in my new passion that I found myself stepping on electrical cords, leaving stuff (drills, saws, etc) on the floor to trip over, and so on. I just ignored them!

It scares me, in hindsight, how careless I was. Let's agree that a bad fire is not good for either the layout or the hobbyist. How about the wife, though? If she loses her home, or you lose her, or one of your kids gets hurt, was it all worth the single-minded pursuit of a hobby?

I will now give my head a shake. My thanks to Jeff for bearing his soul and offering a caution to all of us.

[Anonymous]

guys, be soooo careful when anything says spray on the label! I just finished extiguishing a little girl that was messing with a aerosol can and a nail in the kitchen while her momma was frying potatos. No kidding! There are actually people like that. Anyway, The kitchen is no more and the little girl is getting skin grafts here in Tucson!

[Anonymous]

My first activity in the forum. Good to see all the great advice. I am constructing a double deck Nscale layout, in a 20' by 14' room with one access door. I made a point of talking and learning a lot FIRST. The Design Sig at the 2003 Maple Leaf Convention, in Toronto was very helpful!
Some quick points: I keep two ABC extinguishers close by, and plan to look for a C02 type. I installed an inline exhaust fan (4" metal pipe) venting direct to the outside, to control heat during an operating session, and air quality during construction. I have a large shop vac portable air cleaner going in the room, whenever I am there, because we often forget how minute particles like sawdust, can easily ignite.More extreme, but worth considering, is when I knew the 27 year old the furnace needed replacing, I did it sooner than later, and put a high effeciency one, besides the usual benefits--the BIG benefit is that it DOES NOT use internal air for combustion. Chemicals, spray painting,etc in the basement, will not be a problem. How many of us, have not thought about that flame source so close by.
Adhesives, like your event, can be hazardous. Simple roadbed and tracklaying often use chemicals that may not be flame hazardous, but sure are not good to breathe. A great adhesive is "Cove Mould Adhesive" in tubes, sold by the same folks who sell PL300 for foam,etc. This stuff does not have the poisin emblem. It holds cork and foam roadbed quick and well, including track, with no nails, and the huge bonus is, IF you make a mistake, you can lift it again, with a flexible putty knife, and not have the usual devastation of material, nor the glue build up. This stuff is worth a try!, especially if you have been using white glue or latex contact cement and nails. My last thought was getting air out fast, so when I designed this basement room, I went to get lengths to NOT permanently cover the large window that starts at about the 47" level to the ceiling. I have a 60" piece of backdrop (masonite reinforced with 2" solid insulation board, on the back, glued with PL300, to provide light weight rigidity) and wing nuts allow a fast removal.
Thanks for the opportunity to participate. Ron email: [e-mail]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

This is the reason I don't like foam scenery. You don't need hot-wire tools to work with plaster, and plaser doesn't burn nearly as easily.

Still, a spray mist that has petrochemicals in it is bad news around anything hot, be it a soldering iron, hot glue gun or a hot wire cutter.

That's why I only use water-based products inside on the layout, and save the petrochemical stuff for OUTSIDE only (like for making trees) where there's lots of ventilation.

I won't go so far as to condemn the use of foam for scenery, though I can see why this story would give one cause to reconsider it's use. The culprit here was the solvent based adhesive, combined with the hot wire. I agree, only water based adhesives and paints on the layout.

I am no stranger to the concept of a non flamable layout. When I built the display at the Mall of America 13 years ago, I had to deal with building inspectors. Nothing could be flamable!!!! The benchwork was all steel and covered with fire retardant treated plywood. They required me to install a sprinkled system under the layout. They even inspected the low voltage electrical. All of the scenery was done with metal lath, and Durabond drywall compound. You could have taken a blow torch to the thing and it wouldn't have burned.

Of course all of those things would be overkill for a home layout. A little common sense goes a long way to staying safe. When all else fails, a good ABC type fire extinguisher may be your best friend.

[Anonymous]

jhoff310

Sorry to her about the fire, hope you are okay? I have been a firefighter for 29 years, the last 13 as Fire Marshal. Spraying flammables is dangerous, far more dangerous than the foam. We have talked about the dangers of foam here on the forum before, it is safer laying flat than being vertical on a wall. Also the foam is generally covered by paint, scenery, plaster etc.

The BC extinguisher is filled with baking soda, the same as the Arm & HAmmer box, even a box of it is a good idea to have on hand. The ABC extinguisher is filled with monamonium phosphate, a lot more corrosive than baking soda and harder to clean, The CO2 is carbon dioxide, more expensive and harder to get.

For clean up try some vanilla extract in the wash water, it gets the smoke smell out. Also some of the orange based cleaners, Oxyclean, work too.

It takes only a spark to set of flammable fumes and I try not to use them as only a last resort. I built my own spray booth and most of the cost was for the explosion proof fan. You should see the code requirements for auto body shops when they paint.


John

[jfugate]

This is the reason I don't like foam scenery. You don't need hot-wire tools to work with plaster, and plaser doesn't burn nearly as easily.

Still, a spray mist that has petrochemicals in it is bad news around anything hot, be it a soldering iron, hot glue gun or a hot wire cutter.

That's why I only use water-based products inside on the layout, and save the petrochemical stuff for OUTSIDE only (like for making trees) where there's lots of ventilation.

[Javern]

GOSH never heard of a fire on a layout before, that spray adhesive is baaaad stuff, I quit using it.

[Anonymous]

A fire extinguisher near the layout is always a good thing to have. When you get the fire extinguisher, make sure it is a CO2 extinguisher, not the dry chemical ones that most places sell. The dry chem extinguisher will leave white powder all over everything in the room and probably in the next room too. They make a terrible mess, and the powder will get into everything, i.e. the motors and gears of any lococs. The CO2 ones leave no residue at all. They don't damage motors and gears. The CO2 ones cost abit more, but are worth it, especially when there are electrics involved.
DON'T use a soda water type, unless you like to live dangerously. They present a shock and short hazard.
After using a CO2 extinguisher, be sure to ventilate the room well. They do not present a toxic hazard, but displace oxygen.

[Anonymous]

Greg

Prototypical is great but dont you think you took it a little far![xx(]. I belive it was john allen that did something like that. He built all the scenery first then cut it all apart and laid track. That way he really had found the best way through the mountains just like the real railroads.

[Anonymous]

Had a similar experience once, no fire, just a little stupidity caused me to make a little bigger road cutout than I meant to. I came up with this bright idea, that since I was cutting a road out of a mountain, which would be blasted in real life, I would blast mine with some scale "dynamite". Needless to say, the blackcats just made a mess, so I got some bigger firecrackers, started off with bunker buster waterproof ones, then bundling up a couple, then bundling up several and taping them and trimming fuses to make them all go off at the same time, and I ended up with an incredibly large hole rather than the nice long cutout that I intended on. Oh well, a little more Sculptamold and some Krylon will fix anything, as long as you don't get it too close to the bernzomatic, but that's another story.

Greg

[Anonymous]

You probably should invest some money in a couple of fire extinguishers and a smoke hood (so you can breathe in heavy smoke). Layout construction foam is extremely flammable, so always have some sort of aid nearby. Maybe you should carry a cell phone while working with heat near the layout, just as a precaution. I hope these tips help you to have a safer layout.

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen a some safety tips on this very problem,

1. Working Fire Extingusher.
2. Proper ventilation.
3. Working Smoke detectors and Carbon Monoxide detectors
4.proper Clothing (ie no loose clothes and gloves when working with any power tool or heat producing items.)

Please do not let the joy of your life End your life.

Polizi
FireFighter/Emt

[Anonymous]

Not to mention combsution gases and perhaps proximity to the chemicals elsewhere.
We should defend against fire as much as possible.

[jhoff310]

how about a telephone nearby incase things get out of hand.

As far as the foam I cant say that it burns in melts, but with that glue on it, it sure burned and made ALOT of black smoke and one hell of a stinky mess. I have an older house with 6' ceilings in my basement and my layout is 39" high. I had flames as tall as me and I'm 5'9"
Jeff

[Anonymous]

Sorry to hear about your fire ,Wow don't worry just tell your freinds that you burning down some old forrest to make way for right of way .Hey it's part of the sceanery

[mcouvillion]

Simon1966,

Polystyrene foam is just like solid gasoline. You betcha it'll burn!!!

Mark C.

[mcouvillion]

Jeff,

That's truly scary. You could have burned the house down had you not gotten the fire out as fast.

Has anyone ever posted a list of recommended safety equipment for use around this hobby? Some of the stuff folks use is seriously dangerous. Here's a start: fire extinguisher (for fire classes B,C), Band-Aids, Neo-sporin Ointment, dust masks, organic cartridge respirator (for use when using urethane foam), solvent for ACC, safety glasses, plastic gloves, ear plugs. Any other ideas???

Mark C.

[simon1966]

Wow...sounds like this could have been a whole lot worse. Does the foam burn as well?

[Anonymous]

That's terrible!!! I have never experienced a fire on my layout, but I can imagine the grief and frustration such an event may cause.

[jhoff310]

This just shows the best laid plans NEVER work out. With yesterday being Presidents day I figured since I was off I would spend the day working on the layout. I was doing some scenery work on a small section, I sprayed the area with glue so I could put my grass and brush down. It looked wonderful, I got out my how wire tool to cut the foam next to the area I just finished touched it to the foam and POOF!!!!!!! UP IN FLAMES.[:(!] I managed to get the fire out but not before it melted 4 cars, burned my hand, and ruined the area I just finished. I got to thinking what I did wrong.
I was using that spray adhesive in a can (used it before without any problems on foam) It says on the back of the can in big bold letters ***EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE KEEP AWAY FROM HEAT AND OPEN FLAMES****
I guess the heat from my hot wire tool was just enough heat to ignite this stuff. Its not all bad though, the area where I was cutting the foam was going to be a ravine, now I have a BIGGEr ravine.
Jeff