small switcher and ore dump cars

[Anonymous]

I'm going to retire in three years and thought building an N scale layout would be a good hobby. I've started to do research and plan a layout based around the lime kilns in Sainte Genevieve, Missouri. One of the structures I want to model is the vertical kilns. There were 8 kilns in row. Lime stone was brought to the top via a conveyer belt. The ore was loaded into 3 ore dump cars driven by a small engine with a truck diesel engine along the tops of the kilns about 65 feet high. The ore was then driven along the tops of the kilns and dumped into the open kiln tops.

The engine looked like a small switcher. The tracks were narrow gauge. I've been looking for a small engine and dump cars in NN3 or Z scale on the Internet, but have had no luck so far. The closest I've seen to what I want are in the first picture at http://carendt.com/microplans/pages/venues/boxes/, but they are in HOn30 scale. The best I've found for the ore cars are the N scale Flieschmann 8500 ore side dump cars. I would like to power the ore car system, but will build dummies if I have to. Does anyone have any ideas on what I could do for a powered system.

I worked in the lime kilns during the summers in the early 60s to earn money for college. I was lucky enough to drive the ore car system several nights. Since the kilns were heated to 1800 degrees, it was a nice difference from bagging lime or working in the heat around the kilns.

[Anonymous]

[2c]Opting for Nn3 is very brave (especially if you are new to the hobby?), having modelled in OO9 (the British equivalent of HOn30) before, there is a problem with getting the stuff to run reliably. The problem seems to be is when you use a commercial N-gauge loco chassis then stick a larger HO narrow gauge body on top you alter the centre of gravity and the thing becomes unstable resulting in poor running. I dare say that some of the brass items avaiable in HOn30 don't suffer this way.

IMHO going even smaller and using Z gauge track is asking for trouble, I know some folks do it - maybe the Marklin mechs are better built.

You say the ore car system was narrow gauge - do you know what gauge it was? There are huge variety of narrow gauges - the most common in the US was 3ft gauge, but in industrial plants there was stuff down to 15" gauge.

In HO there are two commercially supported options for narrow gauge modellers: HOn3 (10.5mm track for 3ft guage models) and HOn30 (9mm track correct for 2ft6in gauge), although many use HOn30 to represent 2ft gauge prototypes such as the Maine 2ft gauge railroads. In N scale only Nn3 (6.5mm track which scales out to about 3ft4in) is commercially supported.

[Jetrock]

aardvarknav, how much experience do you have with model railroading? I ask because such a layout would be a real challenge in narrow-gauge N--that equipment is SMALL, and it would almost certainly have to be scratchbuilt. You won't have much luck finding really small Nn3 or Z engines because commercial motors don't get that small. Modeling small narrow-gauge equipment is a specialty market in O or HO, in N it is still pretty rare and mostly limited to larger narrow-gauge steam engines rather than the tiny diesel "critters."

How good are your eyes and your hands? A lot of older gents I have met in the hobby tend to prefer larger scales (HO or O or G) because their eyes aren't what they used to be and they have a lot of trouble with smaller scales. If you have a background in making fine jewelry or microsurgery, then scratchbuilding Nn3 wouldn't be too hard. But for most folks it would be a challenge.

Have you considered modeling this kiln in HO? The HOn30 set you referenced is an old Roco set--I'm not sure if it is still being made but it pops up from time to time. It's probably the smallest commercial product similar to what you're looking for. A 65' high kiln would be about 9" high in HO--certainly not too hard to model.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock
... The HOn30 set you referenced is an old Roco set--I'm not sure if it is still being made but it pops up from time to time ....

Roco recently re-launched their HOe/HOn30 range with updated mechanisms - so yes its still in the Roco range.

Actually I don't think the diesel critter in the photo is the Roco one - I think its the old Eggar Bahn / Minitrains one which definitely isn't available anymore, occasionally they crop up second hand on eBay.

For a good source of HOn30 stuff in the US try Train & Trooper in Philips, Maine - you can see what kind of stuff is available: http://www.trainandtrooper.com/

[Jetrock]

I definitely crave a Tran & Trooper critter kit! The as-yet-unbuilt mini layout I have planned needs one...

[Anonymous]

While I’ve spent a lot of eye-straining time looking at radar sets while flying B-52s and FB-111s, my eyesight and dexterity is still good enough to tie #20 flies to one pound test leader line for fly fishing. I continue to pass the ultimate test of threading needles for my wife’s sewing while under direct supervision and provided with explicit directions. I most recently put together a loom for her with a minimum of expletives. While I don’t do jewelry, my wife makes her own glass beads and strings them into bracelets and other configurations. I get stuck with putting the clasps on – again under close supervision. I haven’t done microsurgery per se, but I recently removed several stickers from an encounter with a cactus using only a straight pin without mangling my hand. Even though I’m getting older, I am still able to determine the arrival of spring and the need to get the barbecue ready by observing the mass migration of young ladies toward skimpy outfits. I’m even able to determine that most of their clothing is two sizes too small. When that capability goes, then I’ll consider my eyesight to have deteriorated to the point where I would consider giving up pursuits that require working with small scale objects.

I’ve built and detailed about 450 model airplanes and several large sailing ships with all the rigging. When my son was little we set up an N-scale system, but didn’t do much for a layout because it was too much trouble to move around on the military moves. I’ve still got about 30 pieces of rolling stock and several structures.

The layout I’m planning will be standard N scale. The only part that would be narrow gauge would be about 9 inches of track along the tops of the vertical kiln structure. It’s that way in the real world and I wanted to match actual conditions. I thought if I could find a small NN3 or Z scale switcher and dump cars it would be more realistic than using regular N scale stock. The real world engine used to drive the ore cars was about ¼ the size of a small switcher engine and used a truck diesel engine and truck transmission. It only operated at the top of the kilns. There was a very steep incline track (about 45 degrees) that went from the top of the kiln to the ground. The engine was winched up and down for major maintenance problems.

I can modify the Fleischmann ore cars to make them more realistic (e.g., manual dump handles), but I just haven’t seen a very small N scale switcher that could be used. I’ll probably end up just making non-operable cars and engine with a short stretch of Z scale track to emulate the narrow gauge of the real world.

[Anonymous]

OK - if you're really sure that Nn3 is the way to go then don't let me hold you back[;)]

I think the smallest Z scale diesel available is the DB (German national railways) class 361 made by Marklin, sorry the link is to the German version of their website as it doesn't show up on their US site (a basic understanding of German might help but I think you can work out what its all about). It wouldn't be rocket science to ba***his around to look something like an industrial Plymouth switcher in Nn3:

http://www.maerklin.de/produkte/frontend/index.php?page=detail&detail&sCountryCode=de&bSetNew=1&bShowLogo=1&start=60&nr=88641&stichwort=&baureihe=&spur=3&gruppe=1&untergruppe=all&epoche=all&merkmale=all&show=detail&iNeuheitenKatalogID=&sNeuheitenSpur=&fromSLI

[rockythegoat]

QUOTE: Originally posted by aardvarknav

While I’ve spent a lot of eye-straining time looking at radar sets while flying B-52s and FB-111s, .....

I thought so, judging by your name! Were you ever at the 'Heath? I was there 84-88. Law Enforcement Investigator. Miss the sounds of those 'Varks!

I have seen better reliability with narrow diesels then steamers, however, I don't know what the age of the steamers were. I was told by the guys who had the engines that alot of the problem is due to the lack of weight

[Jetrock]

Okay then, consider yourself fully vetted--I got the impression that you were making a "mini layout" based just on the kilns and its railroad--which isn't a bad idea, really. There is a whole subculture of "mini layout" builders who, rather than cranking out a basement empire, produce gobs and gobs of tiny little layouts.

You might consider using Z scale track and trucks and scratchbuilding the cars and switcher body--and use some sort of hidden string or other contraption to move it up and down, rather than having a self-powered engine.

The Roco HOn30 dump cars would actually be rather oversized for such an application.

How narrow was this narrow-gauge track? If it is as small as you say, Nn3 track might actually be too wide! Some industrial narrow gauge equipment ran as narrow as 15-18"...A non-powered dummy model might be the way to go, but a powered model would be very cool...I just don't think there are any single-truck Z scale engines for conversion!

[Anonymous]

Only visited the Heath. I was a SAC weenie. B-52G's out of Blytheville with 5 tours in Ds (Guam, Kadena, and U-Tapao) during that time. Then FB crew training at Plattsburgh and normal tour at Pease. I then went to SAC Hqtrs where I was in charge of Target Materials. I went to RAF Marham for the 82 RAF Bombing Competition. We had to go to Lakenheath to get our camera film developed.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Jetrock,
I had about come to the same idea. I had even throught about using the string idea or even some set up with magnets. The Plymouth switchers are about the right shape, but at least twice as big as the kiln engine. I can scratchbuild the engine and cars. If I really got lazy, I have a friend with a metals machine shop. I used to work for a company that built very big large format color scanners and he did the metal work. I could have him mill one out for me. He owes me a favor. He had a 72 Ducati that was relatively rare. I took a small photo of it, cleaned it up in Photoshop, and printed it out on canvas on one of HPs large format inkjet printers. Looked like a real work of art at the end.

The Sainte Genevieve layout also lends itself to other additions. Just depends on how much of the basement I have to share with my wife's hobbies.

[mrcommem]

If you can do the layout in n-gauge then Arnold made operating side dump ore cars that you can make some kind of mechanism  to dump them.  Arnold made a factory that and accesories for the side dump cars.

 

Mr. Commem

[mbinsewi]

Mr. Commem, welcome, I see you've been a member since 2002.

Unfortunately Mr. Anonymous hasn't been around for 14 years.  That's why his name is Mr. Anonymous.

I see the Arnold cars you mention are European?  They do sound interesting.

Mike.

[BigDaddy]

Mr Commem 17 years since you last post, might be a record.   There is no charge for starting a new thread. 

Putting your thoughts into a post sometimes helps you see your problem clearly.  When I post something that is wrong, it's not because I'm out to deceive people, it's because I'm wrong and don't know it.  My friends have set me straight many times and I'm a better model railroader for it.

[hon30critter]

BigDaddy

When I post something that is wrong, it's not because I'm out to deceive people, it's because I'm wrong and don't know it.  My friends have set me straight many times and I'm a better model railroader for it.

I have benefitted from being corrected several times!

Dave

[mbinsewi]

Oh yea! same here!

I guess it's how one is corrected.  Experience from a couple of other forums have shown me that some that do the correcting act like YOU must be the biggest idiot around for not knowing.......whatever... the subject is. 

There's correcting, and then there's belittling.

Mike.

[irishRR]

Back to the N scale Arnold ore dump car. I made a Z scale mine run on my N scale layout using one of those ore cars and then I Kitbashed an N scale caboose to make a custom shell for a motorized Marklin Chassis. The Ore Car is pretty detailed with working chutes and hinges for dumping coal or whatever the payload is. here are a couple pictures. 

20180624_020342 by John Collins, on Flickr

20180624_015719 by John Collins, on Flickr

- John Collins

[Nn3critter]

Hello,  I am using Z scale passenger trucks and considering building a master and then casting for the dump body. Hard to decide between wood and iron box, or more like a square barrow, and getting the size to look realistic. Any thoughts?

[NVSRR]

Sounds line a good one for 3d resin printing. Maybe post it to shapeways or thingiverse and make a few dollars. Sounds like there would be a small market.