Brass Market Growing or shrinking?

[Anonymous]

As the price of plasic has risen, the "working" brass pieces start to make sense in terms of cost. As far as looks, they do seem to have a "Beefier" appearance to them. To me anyway.

[twhite]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oren

I have heard that new models like PSC are "shelf" engines whereas models like PFM and AKANE are good operators locomotives. I don't have a PSC engine, but i do have an Akane H8 and it is a fantastic work engine...A true Allegheny!!

Oren: I believe you about the AKANE Allegheny, if it runs half as well as my two AKANE M-4 Yellowstones, then it's an absolute gem! My LHS in Roseville had an AKANE H-8 dating from about 1966 or so in their brass case last year, it was going for $1100, and it was just beautiful! Detail every bit as good as you'd find in current brass, and it ran like a Swiss watch. By the time I got up the courage to go for it, it was gone. Someone got themselves a real jewel! I don't know about PSC, because I've never come across any of their locomotives, but PFM, Sunset and KEY are smooth-running brass--at least the ones I have. Only brass I've had to REALLY tinker with are a couple of Custom Brass 4-8-2's I bought. The drivers were sprung with guitar wire! Rebalancing and re-weighting was a MAJOR headache, but they run pretty well, now. Not super, but at least well.
Tom

[canazar]

I can chip in here...


I sometimes shop at a trains store here in Phoenix that has been around for almost 30 years. Thay have seen it all. All trends from big to small. I was talking to them about my brass collection handed down to me. He mentioned that the brass is goign by the way side. They have seen a steady drop since the mid to late 80's. They belive it will never go away, but it willd drop to the point were it is more of collection or novelty rather than building a running fleet.
They pointed out 2 major reasons. One cost/dteail. The detail in the cheaper engines(plastic) is going up and the cost is cheap enough that people cant justify dropping the money on brass. His quote, "how many people are going to by a brass engine for 1000.00 when you can get one for less than half, that has DCC, and more sound functions than you know what do with. And detail, in some cases, is just as good?"
The second reason, a bit sad but true, folks that appricate brass, are growing old and fadeing away. The younger crowd doesnt see the romance in brass and cant justify. (allthough, if I had the money, Overland Models has some killer stuff) For instance, my collection probaly could have been worth almsot 2 times as much 15 years ago... but now?

Best Regards'

John Kanicsar

[Anonymous]

I personally can't see paying 800. 00 + for a brass locomotive but, I have no qualms about buying brass passenger cars. I only have once brass pass car that I bought new @ 255.00. All my other brass pass cars are used and I have no problems about including plastic pass cars with my brass as long as the plastic cars are correct for the roads that I model. I'm waiting on an Overland Models ATSF full dome #60 used in business/excursion on ATSF/BNSF-price new for me is 419.00.
Ch

[trainfan1221]

I always wanted to own a brass model as a novelty,but it was way too expensive. Some of them don't look that good close up to justify the price. I also heard they don't always run that well. Still, it is interesting to go to a hobby store and see what they have in brass. And z scale, for that matter.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

... there's nothing like this over here. You can buy brass kits but until Bachmann brought out some O-scale equipment recently in brass there was no RTR brass available, .... A BLI steamer looks to be the equal of any brass one and has DCC and sound fitted, which you'd have to add to the brass.

Actually, Matt Fulgerex (Swiss brass manufacturer) imported some 4mm "OO" scale Great Western RTR brass models in the late 60's or early 70's - a King class I think and a tank engine - maybe a 14xx, can't quite remember. It never caught on here because the market is so much smaller here in the UK than in the US, as a result the runs were much more limited in number and the prices per piece were so much higher. You are quite right though the craftsman kit market in the UK has largely taken the place of the RTR brass model in the US.

On your other point BLI are good, but not quite that good. A really good brass piece is still much more accurate and detailed than the BLI steamers - that's not to say they aren't better than some of the older brass pieces you see for sale on eBay for exorbitent prices.

The other thing about brass is that because they are run in very limited runs, providing they have pre orders for 10 or 20 they can afford to do some quite unusual locos which we will never see in mass market plastic - where the tooling costs for the injection moulds mean hundreds if not thousands of units to make a profit.

[Anonymous]

I have heard that new models like PSC are "shelf" engines whereas models like PFM and AKANE are good operators locomotives. I don't have a PSC engine, but i do have an Akane H8 and it is a fantastic work engine...A true Allegheny!!

[jimrice4449]

Most of the replies to this have been about engines but let's not forget the psgr train freaks out there. I recently put together a Panama Limited (12 cars). 8 of the cars were standard Pullman designs differing from PRR, NYC, SP, etc only in paint. For the "signature" cars peculiar to that train I was able to find a used Soho observation and bagg/dorm. For the diner and sleeper/lounge I used Railway Classics cars. Now I'll grant you that those two cars are absolutely exquisite but they cost 50% more than the rest of the train combined, including the engine. If I had had to rely on current imports for more than two cars I would have passed on the project.
Honorable oriental gentlemen have backed themselves into a corner. The prices are so high that there's only a limited market. The limited market requires higher per unit costs which raises the per unit price, further reducing the available market and on we go to extinction. In psgr cars we're already seeing the solution in limited run kits featuring brass sides and plastic basic structures. Brass frieght cars spawned a thriving market for resin limited run kits. The market has a tendency to ruthlessly eliminate anamolies. Look for more and more "niche" products particularly in things like cabooses and "train specific" psgr cars

[twhite]

One of the reasons for brass is that it offers locomotives that are specific to certain railroads. I've got lots of brass, and I'll admit that keeping them 'tuned up' can often be a pain in the posterior, but if I want a new steam locomotive for my Rio Grande, I've got about two choices in plastic--the Genesis 3800 4-6-6-4 (which the Grande only leased, never bought) or the P2K USRA 2-8-8-2 compound. If I want a 4-8-2 or almost any other Rio Grande prototype, I HAVE to go with brass, that's all that's available. I've found out lately that used brass is the way to go, and I have to do a lot of hunting to get the right price (even if it occasionally means re-motoring and re-balancing), since new brass is just totally out of my budget. If BLI or Genesis or Proto starts coming out with Rio Grande steamers, I'll be first in line, believe me. But until then, I'll still be haunting the net for used PFM, Sunset, Westside and Key. Some brass locos are a lot like pipe-smoking: You fiddle around with the equipment FAR more than you actually use it!
Tom

[tatans]

Excellent responses to the "brass" thing, this explains a lot to me, it has always been a mystery, thankfully all your replies bring a note of moderation to the hobby, and I must agree with orsonroy @ unknown underground hoarders, how true this aspect is. As usual, well informed responses to this forum.

[Anonymous]

I don't own any Brass locos, and they have been a bit of a shock to discover - there's nothing like this over here. You can buy brass kits but until Bachmann brought out some O-scale equipment recently in brass there was no RTR brass available, unless you had the money to pay a professional to build and paint a kit. I would probably consider a brass loco of a specific prototype unavailable in plastic, though this would be the sole reason as plastic locos seem to be far better value. A BLI steamer looks to be the equal of any brass one and has DCC and sound fitted, which you'd have to add to the brass. Just my thoughts!

[Anonymous]

I used to buy new brass a lot, but have cut down appreciabley in the last few years. My latest new purchase was a Sunset 4-8-0 a couple of years ago, and before that a PRR N1s back in 1995. I have scoured E-bay for deals on a number of locos that I wanted and acquired a PRR S2, PRR B6sb, NKP S-3, and a Heisler. If I could not get the model for the price I wanted, I passed on it.

Unless I want a specific loco, I will probably pass on any new brass, except for the new
Division Point NKP H-6 Mike as it is a different version from the H-6d that I do have.

Except for the oddities, like a Baldwin Centipede, RT-624 or a GP-49 that will never be offered in plastic, I have gone over to plastic for diesels as they are easily modified to match the prototype except for those railroads that had unique bell types or locations such as the DT&I, CNW and NKP.

I will still look at Brass Cabooses since every railroad had specific details and each caboose was almost custom built for each railroad, but I will buy a plastic caboose if it matches the railroads I model exactly or I can easily modify it. Such as the Atlas wide vision, that needs window filled etc to match the DT&I. It would be nice if the manufacturer's would include plugs for the windows.

Rick

[orsonroy]

Brass collectors are a big unknown underground in this hobby. Im general, most brass collectors don't even have an operating layout, and don't advertise the fact that they've got $1.2 million worth of toy trains in their basement.

True, there are smaller numbers of each production run. I've heard that 50 models is abouot the average number these days for brass, with 10 not being uncommon. But look through new issues of Mainline Modeler, and you'll quickly see that there are dozens of brass models being offered every month. And SOMEONE's got to be making money on these brass toys; otherwise, no one would bother to build them.

You have to remember too that there's a bias in work that says that if an engine isn't brass, it's worthless. There are STILL a lot of modelers out there that won't buy a caboose, passenger car, or even diesel if it's not brass. As for brass steam guys, they generally don't think anyone should waste their time on anything but brass at all.

Personally, I don't buy into the whole brass fascination. Yes, I've got some (3 engines, 3 cabooses, 1 boxcar) but that's only because I can't get the models any other way. With the exception of one caboose, all my brass is used, and some doesn't compare well against modern plastic or resin. One of my steamers is a shelf queen, because no one can get it to run! And I'm in this hobby to model and to enjoy myself. I really don't find enjoyment in buying a $1200 brass Berkshire, when a $200 P2K Berk does the job as nicely!

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

It would seem someone has their stats wrong, according to polls here, people listing their rosters of locos were absolutely astonishing in sheer volume, some of individual responses to list brass engines were in the hundreds, some had 300 to 500 brass locos,and there were pages of lists, so someone out there is buying them and there are far more people buying EVERY brass engine that comes out and I'm sure there are not too many left over at the end of a run. I have no idea what you could possibly do with that many hunks of brass other than sta***hem in boxes for whatever reason or they must think they are going to make a killing 60 years from now, I also took into account there may be some slight exaggeration, who knows?? one thing for sure, somebody is buying them or they wouldn't be making them.

The point that Tatans fails to recognize is that a great many collectors of brass locomotives acquired their hefty collections in the past, when prices were far more reasonable, and are no longer actively collecting. I have a substantial collection myself but have not made a purchase of a "new" model in over a decade. The same is true of several "brass collector" friends of mine.

Having a large collection of brass locomotives in no way reflects on the current health of the brass manufacturers' marketplace. With current production runs numbering in the dozens, rather than many hundreds or more they once did, today's brass market can not be considered as other than dwindlingly small relative to years gone by.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

It would seem someone has their stats wrong, according to polls here, people listing their rosters of locos were absolutely astonishing in sheer volume, some of individual responses to list brass engines were in the hundreds, some had 300 to 500 brass locos,and there were pages of lists, so someone out there is buying them

A long time modeler that I know used to buy two of each brass steam engine that came out for Canadian roads. He was the manager of a local real estate broker, so I assume he could afford them.

His boss in another city had even more - I saw several photos of his collection once, floor to ceiling glassed in cases filled with nothing but unpainted brass engines. Really awesome. The sad or (?) part about is collection is that when he passed away it was sold on consignment by a local dealer. That was many years ago and I think the dealer may still have some available. Would have been much better for his family if he had invested the money in something more secure!

Not interested in brass myself, would rather build models than acquire them. But that's just me.

Bob Boudreau

[Anonymous]

Its gotta be shrinking ...

... look at what's available in good quality plastic. The brass importers are not going to be able to compete with good quality mass-market plastic stuff, so they pick slightly more obscure models where the more limited number of units justify them jacking up the price to cover the production costs.

Sorry, but I won't be paying $500-$1000+ for a new brass loco that I can buy for a $100 in plastic! But if its a model thats never going to get into mass-market plastic (eg: Alco HH660, an MEC ten-wheeler) then I might think about it.

There are also two types of brass buyer, the true collector those who just collect them for the display cabinet, and the modellers who buy things to paint and run. My guess is that the collector market is quite healthy, but the modeller market is very much smaller except for unusual models.

[tatans]

It would seem someone has their stats wrong, according to polls here, people listing their rosters of locos were absolutely astonishing in sheer volume, some of individual responses to list brass engines were in the hundreds, some had 300 to 500 brass locos,and there were pages of lists, so someone out there is buying them and there are far more people buying EVERY brass engine that comes out and I'm sure there are not too many left over at the end of a run. I have no idea what you could possibly do with that many hunks of brass other than sta***hem in boxes for whatever reason or they must think they are going to make a killing 60 years from now, I also took into account there may be some slight exaggeration, who knows?? one thing for sure, somebody is buying them or they wouldn't be making them.

[mikebonellisr]

I have never bought a brass engine for more than$400,and for the most part,I have to really work on them or even repower them to get them to run as some of my BLI's Bachmann or LL Heritages.I don't know how well the more expensive brass operates,but it's getting too expensive for me.Now I'm just buying the high end plastic.So in my case,It's shrinking

[CNJ831]

Once upon a time (in the late 1960's through the 1970's) something like 40% of model railroad hobbyists owned at least some brass and production runs of popular engines were in the thousand-unit-plus range. Today I'd estimate that no more than one or two percent of hobbyists are actively purchasing new brass and production runs are often counted in dozens of units. The numbers speak for themselves.

CNJ831

[Bob Hayes]

Bob

OMI still advertises in MR. The last one just wasn't very big and was buried inside the magazine. I haven't bought any brass in 15 years. My first one cost $71, a Balboa at that. I have enough steam engines & turbines. Lately, Kato has been my choice. Brass just got too expensive for the quality as well as the operation of the models. In fact, I've heard people complain that if they take a brass model out of the box and run it, pieces start falling off.

Bob Hayes

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman
I can't remember the last add I saw for a new brass engine.

Perhaps you haven't been reading all the magazines - in the current issue of RMC there is a back page ad by OMI for four new brass engines. Overland advertises resgularly in many magazines, pehaps not in MR.

Bob Boudreau

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

Shrinking. The diesel market has been saturated by better running plastic s. The car market has a hugely wider variety of cars in plastic at much cheaper prices. With prices pushing a $1000 a piece the number of buyers is growing smaller. In the '70's almost every issue of MR was announcing a new run of a brass engine. I can't remember the last add I saw for a new brass engine.

Dave H.

Did you see the "Key Imports" ad among others in the latest MR?

Bob

[dehusman]

Shrinking. The diesel market has been saturated by better running plastic s. The car market has a hugely wider variety of cars in plastic at much cheaper prices. With prices pushing a $1000 a piece the number of buyers is growing smaller. In the '70's almost every issue of MR was announcing a new run of a brass engine. I can't remember the last add I saw for a new brass engine.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

Any Opinions?