I look at it as a continuum with scratch building on one end and kit bashing on the other. Most projects will fall in between. And I'm not sure that it matters until one enteres into the contest realm in in those cases, clearly defined rules should solve the problem.
I once got into a somewhat heated discussion here about photos when MR was hosting their annual model photo contests. As I recall, that was prompted by someone using a real sunset photo with a model photo overlaid on it. The photo won a prize but I didn't think it was a "model photo." Sure it had models in it but the real sky made a huge diference. So I posed the question: What if someone took a prototype photo and placed on it a plastic model pallet? Is that a real photo or a model photo?
I think the same should hold true for kit bashed vs. scratch built models. One might arbitrarily say that it would depend on the amount of readily available materias in a model that would deterine which category it fit in but again, unless it's a contest, what mkaes the difference? If it's a good looking model, that should be the top concern of all modelers.
dlm
BEAUSABRE There is also Paintbashing. I have a set of PRR FT's, an F2, a GP20 and SD24's (A and B) done up up in Dark Green Locomotive Enamel and bearing the sacred Keystone. Heresy! scream my fellow SPF's (Slobberin' Pennsy Freaks). Hey, remember MR's slogan, "Model Railroading is FUN". I'm having fun, are they? The PRR (protrate yourself in the direction of Altoona) had said, "Not only no, but HELL NO" when EMD offered to provide FT demonstrator #103, but a couple of years later, in the midst of its World War 2 thermodynamic spasm, it was desperate, so it ordered a couple of sets to serve as helpers over the Hill out of Altoona. Post war, they were regeared for general service and as 5400 hp was not felt to be needed, they were broken down to A-B sets (joined by drawbars) and teamed with a F2 (B units had couplers at their rear) to create 4050 hp locomotives. What's an F2? It's extenally indistinguishable from a F3 Phase 1, but has the guts of a FT. In 1945-46, with it's suppliers transitioning from a war to peace time economy, EMD couldn't build the 1500 hp generator and other electrics of the F3. So it said, "You can have a 1350 hp locomotive today, that you will be able to upgrade (not sure if anyone ever did) to an F3 (The F2 used a derated 16-V-567B engine, not the FT's 567A. The F3 had a 1500 hp 567B) or get a 1500 hp locomotives next week." Several people bit and about 100 units were built. Many A units were bought to create a three unit locomotive with a FT A/B set as outlined above. That explains the great preponderence of A units over B units built. EMD F2 - Wikipedia Pennsy skipped EMD's 1959 generation to digest its huge purchases of the previous decade, but who says a few more units wouldn't have been needed, particularly when you had aging minority builder units in your fleet? So EMD got an order for 20 SD24's for the Harrisbug-Pittsburgh mainline and Buffalo line over Keating Summit and 20 GP20's for the flat territory on Lines West to Chicago and St Louis. Then there's the Lehigh and New England FT's. I've always loved that livery. Reminds me of being dressed in a tuxedo with a crisp white shirt and a red rose on the lapel. Who says black is boring? Bought from the O&W estate when the L&NE decided to keep going in the late Fifties. After the merger with the CNJ, they were repainted, which explains my CNJ FT's. Borderline cases - Upgrades/Paintbashes. For the Jersey Central, I have a Mantua "Little B" numbered as CNJ #841. In real life, 0-4-0T #840 was built to service the CNJ's Bronx Freight Terminal. After it was replaced by diesel #1000, it became the Elizabethport Shops shop switcher. Unfortunately, it has never been offered as a model, so I found something that was close, remotored it, added Kadees and tell people that it was bought as the original Eport shop goat. There is also my Penn Line D2 Whitcomb 0-B-0 switcher which is repowered and painted up as companion #1002 to CNJ's Davenport #1001 that replaced #1000 in the Bronx. One again, no model Davenport has ever been offered. So by compromising a bit in both cases I was able to get something close to what I wanted. You are only limited by your imagination!
There is also Paintbashing. I have a set of PRR FT's, an F2, a GP20 and SD24's (A and B) done up up in Dark Green Locomotive Enamel and bearing the sacred Keystone. Heresy! scream my fellow SPF's (Slobberin' Pennsy Freaks). Hey, remember MR's slogan, "Model Railroading is FUN". I'm having fun, are they?
The PRR (protrate yourself in the direction of Altoona) had said, "Not only no, but HELL NO" when EMD offered to provide FT demonstrator #103, but a couple of years later, in the midst of its World War 2 thermodynamic spasm, it was desperate, so it ordered a couple of sets to serve as helpers over the Hill out of Altoona. Post war, they were regeared for general service and as 5400 hp was not felt to be needed, they were broken down to A-B sets (joined by drawbars) and teamed with a F2 (B units had couplers at their rear) to create 4050 hp locomotives.
What's an F2? It's extenally indistinguishable from a F3 Phase 1, but has the guts of a FT. In 1945-46, with it's suppliers transitioning from a war to peace time economy, EMD couldn't build the 1500 hp generator and other electrics of the F3. So it said, "You can have a 1350 hp locomotive today, that you will be able to upgrade (not sure if anyone ever did) to an F3 (The F2 used a derated 16-V-567B engine, not the FT's 567A. The F3 had a 1500 hp 567B) or get a 1500 hp locomotives next week." Several people bit and about 100 units were built. Many A units were bought to create a three unit locomotive with a FT A/B set as outlined above. That explains the great preponderence of A units over B units built. EMD F2 - Wikipedia
Pennsy skipped EMD's 1959 generation to digest its huge purchases of the previous decade, but who says a few more units wouldn't have been needed, particularly when you had aging minority builder units in your fleet? So EMD got an order for 20 SD24's for the Harrisbug-Pittsburgh mainline and Buffalo line over Keating Summit and 20 GP20's for the flat territory on Lines West to Chicago and St Louis.
Then there's the Lehigh and New England FT's. I've always loved that livery. Reminds me of being dressed in a tuxedo with a crisp white shirt and a red rose on the lapel. Who says black is boring? Bought from the O&W estate when the L&NE decided to keep going in the late Fifties. After the merger with the CNJ, they were repainted, which explains my CNJ FT's.
Borderline cases - Upgrades/Paintbashes. For the Jersey Central, I have a Mantua "Little B" numbered as CNJ #841. In real life, 0-4-0T #840 was built to service the CNJ's Bronx Freight Terminal. After it was replaced by diesel #1000, it became the Elizabethport Shops shop switcher. Unfortunately, it has never been offered as a model, so I found something that was close, remotored it, added Kadees and tell people that it was bought as the original Eport shop goat.
There is also my Penn Line D2 Whitcomb 0-B-0 switcher which is repowered and painted up as companion #1002 to CNJ's Davenport #1001 that replaced #1000 in the Bronx. One again, no model Davenport has ever been offered.
So by compromising a bit in both cases I was able to get something close to what I wanted.
You are only limited by your imagination!
Funniest post of 2024.
Rich
Alton Junction
There is also Paintbashing. I have a set of PRR FT's, an F2, a GP20 and SD24's (A and B) done up up in Dark Green Locomotive Enamel and bearing the sacred Keystone. HERESY! Scream my fellow SPF's (Slobberin' Pennsy Freaks). Hey, remember MR's slogan, "Model Railroading is FUN". I'm having fun, are they?
The PRR (prostrate yourself in the direction of Altoona) had said, "Not only no, but HELL NO" when EMD offered to provide FT demonstrator #103 in 1939-40, but a couple of years later, in the midst of its World War 2 thermodynamic spasm, it was desperate, so it ordered a couple of sets to serve as helpers over the Hill out of Altoona. Post war, they were regeared for general service and as 5400 hp was not felt to be needed, they were broken down to A-B sets (joined by drawbars) and teamed with a F2 (FT B units had couplers and MU connections at their rear) to create 4050 hp locomotives.
What's an F2? It's extenally indistinguishable from a F3 Phase 1, but has the guts of a FT. In 1945-46, with it's suppliers transitioning from a war to peace time economy, EMD couldn't build the 1500 hp generator of the F3. So it said, "You can have a 1350 hp locomotive today, that you will be able to upgrade (not sure if anyone ever did) to an F3 (The F2 used a derated 16-V-567B engine, not the FT's 567A. The F3 had a 1500 hp 567B) or get a 1500 hp locomotive next week." Several people bit and about 100 units were built. Many A units were bought to create a three unit locomotive with a FT A/B set as outlined above. That explains the great preponderence of A units over B units built. EMD F2 - Wikipedia
Pennsy skipped EMD's 1959 generation to digest its huge purchases of the previous decade, but who says a few more units wouldn't have been needed, particularly when you had aging minority builder units in your fleet? So EMD got an order for 20 sets of SD24's for the Harrisbug-Pittsburgh mainline and Buffalo line over Keating Summit and 20 GP20's for the flat territory on Lines West to Chicago and St Louis.
Then there's the Lehigh and New England FT's. I've always loved that livery. Reminds me of being dressed in a tuxedo with a crisp white shirt and a red rose on the lapel. Who says black is boring? Bought from the O&W estate when the L&NE decided to keep going in the late Fifties. After the merger with the CNJ, they were repainted, which explains both my L&NE and CNJ FT's.
hon30critter rrebell You are trying to fit everything into only two catigories, not going to happen. Hi rrebell, Actually that wasn't my intent but I could have worded the question better to allow for the projects that fall between scratchbuilding and kitbashing. Cheers!! Dave
rrebell You are trying to fit everything into only two catigories, not going to happen.
Hi rrebell,
Actually that wasn't my intent but I could have worded the question better to allow for the projects that fall between scratchbuilding and kitbashing.
Cheers!!
Dave
rrebellYou are trying to fit everything into only two catigories, not going to happen.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I remember an editorial by long-time Model Railroader editor Linn Westcott on this subject that was surpisingly narrow minded (in my opinion) in that he was rigid and absolutist that scratchbuilt means everything is scratchbuilt. So in his view even if you scratchbuilt the frame, rolled your own boiler, and totally built up the sides and roof of the cab, the introduction of commercial castings meant it was NOT scratchbuilt. (Motor, gears, light bulbs, screws and couplers were OK to be commercial. I no longer recall how we felt about wheels but in the old days of NMRA contests I can recall winning modelers who made their own wheels.)
He was reacting as I recall to an increasing number of model photos that were being submitted to MR for publication and were described as "scratchbuilt with parts." To him that was a contradiction in terms.
On that basis my "scratchbuilt" four-unit apartment complex structure would not be scratchbuilt because all windows and doors were commercial castings, often heavily modified but nonetheless bought and paid for.
It wasn't that Westcott was such a stickler for scratchbuilding. It was that he was a stickler for vocabulary -- that one word should not have multiple meanings. I think we are less concerned about that now. We'd need to find a new word to describe a scratchbuilt diesel shell that fits onto an Athearn or Hobbytown drive. It isn't kitbashed.
I do know that on the form that my local NMRA division uses for the model contests you check off the boxes that apply, and I have seen (and submitted) models that are described as kits, scratchbuilt AND kitbashed.
The thing scratchbuilding and kitbashing have in common is that the goal and result is a model that cannot be purchased that way (yes I know there were guys who laboriously scratchbuilt EMD F units).
Dave Nelson
I only scratchbuild or kitbash scenery, almost always structures. Generally, I will say a structure is scratch built if I use wood with no pre-defined plans, or plastic sheeting. My subway stations were all made with hydrocal poured in molds I made myself from a plastic "tile" sheet. I didn’t even think I was scratchbuilding it at the time. Laser kits are kits even though most of the techniques are the same as scratchbuilding.
Kitbashing is using significant parts of kits in different configurations, or with additions made with parts not intended to be used with that kit. I suppose it still qualifies as kitbashing when you shorten side walls to fit a model against a back wall.
Another technique that might be considered is using modular panels, like DPM modules or Walthers Cornerstone panels. These can be configured in many different ways, without cutting anything but simply arranging the parts.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
wrench567 Sheldon. Nicely done. But do you have any of the Fruehauf trailers with the round nose and fluted aluminum or stainless sides? 26 footers were common and you could see doubles and triples going down the nations highways. Most major off ramps and on ramps would be a parking area for the drivers to hitch and unhook the trailers and dollys. Mid 50s saw a dramatic rise to the 38 foot and a little while later the 40 foot trailers were abundant. Cabovers ruled the roost until the total length restriction was lifted. Then the damn 53 foot was born. Ever try backing a 53 into a dock originally designed for a 26? I've backed trailers into docks where the tractor was jacked up to the wall of the building across the street. Not fun and people get irate when you're blocking the whole road. Pete.
Sheldon.
Nicely done. But do you have any of the Fruehauf trailers with the round nose and fluted aluminum or stainless sides? 26 footers were common and you could see doubles and triples going down the nations highways. Most major off ramps and on ramps would be a parking area for the drivers to hitch and unhook the trailers and dollys. Mid 50s saw a dramatic rise to the 38 foot and a little while later the 40 foot trailers were abundant. Cabovers ruled the roost until the total length restriction was lifted. Then the damn 53 foot was born. Ever try backing a 53 into a dock originally designed for a 26? I've backed trailers into docks where the tractor was jacked up to the wall of the building across the street. Not fun and people get irate when you're blocking the whole road.
Pete.
I have a wide variety of trailers and a number of different flat car configurations - more pictures later. Pretty large fleet of MiniMetals, Walthers and Bachmann 32'/35' trailers and more.
Sheldon
Hello All,
I posed this same question in 2018...
What do YOU consider the difference between Scratch-built and Kit-bashed???
Don't know if it will, but...
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
You are trying to fit everything into only two catigories, not going to happen.
I agree, and maybe that is why I never took any interest in NMRA or other model building contests, which do have rules about what is kit bashing and what is scratchbuilding.
The NMRA contest rules allow any model to be entered into the scratchbuilt category - But you will loose points if judges feel that more than 50% of the model is commerical parts. And conversely, any model can be entered in the kit built category, but a scratch build model entered in the kit built category will be limited to 8 of the 15 points normally awarded for being scratch built. So an experianced scratch builder cannot enter models in the kit built category and "clean up" by virture of his higher skill.
I do a LOT of light kitbashing, I do a fair amount of heavy kit bashing, I seldom scratch build.
And I don't feel any need to define the grey area between the three.
One example - light kit bashing:
At first glance this might just look like a stock Athearn Blue Box 50' piggyback flat - BUT it is not.
It has list of simple modifications that make it a more accurate model.
Trailers are converted from original dual axle to single axle since most 25'/26' trailers were single axle. The landing gear is relocated to a more realistic distance from the pin, and there is a spare tire mounted underneath, common in that era.
The one piece deck rub rail assembly that Athearn used to position the trailers is cut up, leaving only the correct outer rails, which are then glued to the deck.
Stakes are located at the bridge plate corners, on the prototype this is where chains were latched to hold the bridge plates up.
Bridge plates are added, and some "spare" parts are used to simulate the fifth wheel plate jacks.
Ultra fine detail? No. Ultra accurate? No. Highly representitive and better conveying the overall appearance of an early piggyback car? Yes.
A fast and afforable way to build a 100 plus car roster of 1953 PiggyBack flats - YES.
I have other piggy back flats, other trailer types, etc, all based on the variations that existed in 1954.
They include Bachmann, Walthers, Rapido, Tichy, even old Ullrich models, but this type of car is still largely neglected by the "high end" RTR manufacturers - and I started this fleet long before that was really a thing.
I agree with Simon on all points.
I very rarely scratchbuild. I have done a building or two.
I have modified a number of items
Have I kitbashed a kit or modified it? I think I have modified it to suit.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
Hi Dave.
Interesting question! Ok so if I'm using only raw materials, it's from scratch. If I only ligthly modify a kit with parts from another kit, it's a kitbash. Agree?
Combining raw materials with kit materials is the grey area, right? Here's a try: if I can still recognize the kit, or if the kit parts exceed half of the parts, it's a kitbash. Makes sense? Modifying a RTR part is a modification, Correct?
Simon
Hi gang,
Dan Merkel's recent thread on scratchbuilding and kitbashing got me wondering about how you define the two approaches. If you are scratchbuilding something, how much manufacturered product can you use before it becomes a kitbash?
https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/297527.aspx
Clearly using pre-manufactured items like trucks and couplers will not prevent a project from qualifying as a scratchbuild, but what if you start using doner boxcar floors or frames or roofs as I often do? Where do you draw the line?
I'm not tring to start an argument here. I'm just curious.