I noticed many years ago that the prices displayed for an item on Amazon could change, both up and down and sometimes in a short period of time. It is really noticible when you put some in your cart as save for later.
The thread regarding Kleins mentioned some stores that I had not been aware of one of which is ToyTrainHeaven. While cruising on my phone last night I looked up the Walthers Modern Loading Racks (933-4037) which is an item on my current buy list. This item lists for $29.98 with most online shops selling it for somewhere in the $22 to $24 range. ToyTrainHeaven had it listed at $19.87. This is an exceptional price so I sent the link to my email so I could browse the site on the PC this morning.
When I followed the link I had sent myself the price is $22.17. To ensure I wasn't having a senior moment I looked at the page that was still on my phone and the price was $19.87. When I refreshed the page the price changed to $22.17.
That is still a good price but this is the first I have encountered this kind of variable pricing at a hobby shop. I never knew how Amazon's pricing system worked and really didn't care. It was just something to be aware of and cautious about.
Now it seems that practice is spreading beyond Amazon. Has anyone else noticed this happening?
Rick
ToyTrainHeaven does run a weekly sale, when the sale ends prices go back up to their already nicely discounted prices.
So you may have just caught a sale item at the end of the sale.
In some 30 years that I have purchased model trains this way, most of my internet/mail order buying has been with ToyTrainHeaven and Trainworld - always good prices, always fast service.
For me it does help that I'm not real far from either one, two hours from ToyTrainHeaven, four hours from Trainworld - so lots of my orders arrive next day.
But I still buy a fair amount from six nice train stores in the region, and at the Great Scale Model Train Show held nearby 3 times a year.
On Amazon the same item may actually come from multiple vendors, so prices can change for lots of reasons.
Having worked in this business, and having actually manufactured and sold products, and having been self employed most of my life, prices change for two primary reasons:
The cost to aquire the item changes.
You have too much of something that is not selling and want to free up that capital.
The third, not so primary reason, is having a sale just to promote your business.
Sheldon
I receive emails from them advertising super sales quite often. One possibility could be that the sale ended and the price reverted to "normal".
Or maybe not.
Edit: never mind, Sheldon had the same thought.
While that is certainly a possibility there wasn't anything on the website last night indicating a super sale.
As for Amazon pricing changing due to multilple vendors I am talking about prices changing hour to hour from the same vendor. I believe (but don't know enough about Amazon to prove it) that they have software that changes pricing to get you to pull the trigger. They know what you have been looking at and how many times you visit. No reason ToyTrainHeaven isn't doing the same thing and that the first price I saw was based on them knowing it was my first visit.
hbgatsf While that is certainly a possibility there wasn't anything on the website last night indicating a super sale. As for Amazon pricing changing due to multilple vendors I am talking about prices changing hour to hour from the same vendor. I believe (but don't know enough about Amazon to prove it) that they have software that changes pricing to get you to pull the trigger. They know what you have been looking at and how many times you visit. No reason ToyTrainHeaven isn't doing the same thing and that the first price I saw was based on them knowing it was my first visit.
I cannot otherwise explain your experiance, call them and ask them. You will get a person who knows what is going on.
All I can say is that has not been my experiance at all. I have found them to be top notch in all regards. If you have not figured it out, they are simply the internet face of a large, long standing manufacturer/distributor in this hobby.
Just two days days ago I received two new Bowser RS-3's in C&O from them that have been on preorder. Excelent customer service, talk to a real person who knows what is going on every time I have caled them.
hbgatsf As for Amazon pricing changing due to multilple vendors I am talking about prices changing hour to hour from the same vendor. I believe (but don't know enough about Amazon to prove it) that they have software that changes pricing to get you to pull the trigger. They know what you have been looking at and how many times you visit. No reason ToyTrainHeaven isn't doing the same thing and that the first price I saw was based on them knowing it was my first visit.
As someone who used to sell to Amazon, yes, they do have the algorithms and software in place to change the prices almost instantly. It got very frustrating when my customers complained about them.
Now, did you see this item on Amazon being sold by Toy Train Heaven or was the price on their website? Also, that little thing called 'ccokies' tracks every move we make. Many times I will shop in what Chrome calls "Incognito" so the place I visit looks like I've been there for the first time.
Last, I would never buy trains on Amazon since I've done the research and 99% of the time Amazon is either higher even with free shipping or not available.
Good luck!
Prices change all the time, even store to store in a chain. Years ago I needed bricks for a walkway local Lowe's wanted 67 cents a brick, another Lowe's 30 miles away wanted 37 cents, a price from 30 years ago, saved me around $500.
Well I did a web search and found your $19.87 price. But when you click that link you get a seven page listing of Walthers buildings and that item is not on any of the seven pages at any price.
So it looks like they updated that page but the Google search page is still finding a cached earlier version of that page.
Retail prices online are constantly in flux. We buy just about everything online now as it is almost always cheaper, it takes very little time, and living in a rural area it costs a bunch to drive into town.
We have three Alexas in the house and they are the best tool ever, she keeps me instantly updated on everything from stock prices to how long until my wife gets home so I can make sure I am there to help unload the groceries. The best thing she does is inform us when the price for an item drops to a low price. Say a widget is online for $24.95. We ask Alexa to watch for a drop in price. It may be a few days and she will pipe up and say "The widget you want is on sale for $18.95". We just say "buy it".
We have been looking for a specific washer/dryer with pedestals for about six weeks. Alexa piped up one morning and told us it was on sale for $578.00 cheaper than any other price we could find. We said "buy it". Not only did we get a steal of a deal but they delivered it, set it up, and took our old ones away. We found out after the fact that the store had made a mistake in pricing but they honoured the price anyway. It was a huge worldwide retailer so I don't think they suffered too much.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Prices like that often reflect 'automatic' conversion of an exchange rate, for example when an item listed in Canada is viewed by someone in the United States. This price can change as quickly as the physical exchange-rate metric being tracked by PayPal or the shopping-cart order-fulfillment provider changes.
Currency exchange rates are constantly in flux. This along with the cost of shipping containers across the ocean and the costs involved such as fuel also changes by the second. Those costs when added downstream add up to pennies on a product for the consumer.
Todays rule is get rid of old invantory as fast as possible to make room for new goods. I have seen higher ups yell at managers as Walmart on the floor that they need to be agressive on markdowns. This year all xmas was gone in the first week of new year, except for a few items which I snagged. Alot of what I snagged came in after the holiday or was lost in the back at varius stores and a few items that were labled xmas but were not. If you are a bottom feader like me it has been a feeding frenzy on food, xmas hams at Costco were $1.20 an LB and baking were 25 cents a bag at Lucky. Sorry about the rant but the points is prices out there for everything is becoming spot and that can change very rapidly, had it happen online while buying which changed my mind to buy it later.
One of the hobby shops I used to frequent would have dusty old stock on the shelves but there would be a fresh, new price sticker (pre barcode) with a 'price adjustment' on the top sticker. The old stickers underneath would have the price blacked out so you couldn't see how much the price had increased while the item was collecting dust on the shelf.
Sometimes I'd dig toward the back of the shelf and find an item that didn't have an 'updated price' and the proprietor would have a fit that I had found something that hadn't gotten the 'treatment' then produce the price sticker 'gun' and apply a sticker right in front of me before I could check out. Mote than once I simply left the item on the counter, bought what I absolutely needed at the time and walked out.
"Flexible" pricing isn't something brought about with the internet.
Cheers, Ed
gmpullman One of the hobby shops I used to frequent would have dusty old stock on the shelves but there would be a fresh, new price sticker (pre barcode) with a 'price adjustment' on the top sticker. The old stickers underneath would have the price blacked out so you couldn't see how much the price had increased while the item was collecting dust on the shelf. Sometimes I'd dig toward the back of the shelf and find an item that didn't have an 'updated price' and the proprietor would have a fit that I had found something that hadn't gotten the 'treatment' then produce the price sticker 'gun' and apply a sticker right in front of me before I could check out. Mote than once I simply left the item on the counter, bought what I absolutely needed at the time and walked out. "Flexible" pricing isn't something brought about with the internet. Cheers, Ed
Great story,Ed
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain gmpullman One of the hobby shops I used to frequent would have dusty old stock on the shelves but there would be a fresh, new price sticker (pre barcode) with a 'price adjustment' on the top sticker. The old stickers underneath would have the price blacked out so you couldn't see how much the price had increased while the item was collecting dust on the shelf. Sometimes I'd dig toward the back of the shelf and find an item that didn't have an 'updated price' and the proprietor would have a fit that I had found something that hadn't gotten the 'treatment' then produce the price sticker 'gun' and apply a sticker right in front of me before I could check out. Mote than once I simply left the item on the counter, bought what I absolutely needed at the time and walked out. "Flexible" pricing isn't something brought about with the internet. Cheers, Ed LOL Great story,Ed Rich
LOL
As a consumer I get Ed's point.
But as someone who worked in the hobby business during the double digit inflation of the late 70's/early 80's I understand the business side of this.
If prices are escalating rapidly, retailers are faced with a delemma. If you sell the item at the old price, you might litterally not have the cash to put the item, or a similar item, back on the shelf.
This problem has put more than one hobby shop out of business during inflationary times.
OK, there is a balance between moving out items that are not selling and maintaining the "value" of your inventory.
And personally I think if anything is hurting this hobby, it is the fact that new products come to market, sell out, and then are hard to find for years, until they are run again by the same manufacturer or a new manufacturer.
I don't preorder much stuff, but I just got these, preordered just one month shy of two years ago from Bowser.
Insert picture of two Bowser C&O RS-3's - since the insert link is not working today. - took five tries to post this picture.
I am so happy I have nearly all the trains I need and want, and that the secondary market will supply whatever else I decide I need.
In a recent conversation with the owner of a manufacturing company in this business, we talked about how fragile the supply chain in this business is.
Why is it fragile, because you cannot provide and depth of inventory or customer service on a 30% or less gross margin, which seems to be what has happened to retailing in this business.
Even when Ted Klein started discounting it was only 20% off and he was buying most products direct from the manufacturer as a distributor - so he was still making 40% or more gross margin. That store had depth of inventory, on any given day you could buy a dozen or more of nearly any ATHEARN stock number....
No wonder more and more products are being sold directly by the manufacturers.
There was a day when depth of inventory was a customer draw and considered money in the bank - I miss the the big hobby shops with the big inventories, they are few and far between now.
That box is dusty until that one person walks in the door, then it is the most valueable thing in the building.......
And again, per my earlier post, pretty sure this pricing discrepancy is a cached page from a few years ago.
Not some big "pricing conspiracy"........
I doubt the nice people at ToyTrainHeaven have the time to even think of such non-sense.
One more note. I'm still waiting for two WESTERN MARYLAND RS-3's preordered at the same time......
There are not many more additional locomotives in my future......
And for the record, these are all DC of course.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And again, per my earlier post, pretty sure this pricing discrepancy is a cached page from a few years ago. Well I did a web search and found your $19.87 price. But when you click that link you get a seven page listing of Walthers buildings and that item is not on any of the seven pages at any price. So it looks like they updated that page but the Google search page is still finding a cached earlier version of that page. Sheldon Not some big "pricing conspiracy"........ I doubt the nice people at ToyTrainHeaven have the time to even think of such non-sense.
It's not a big deal but I didn't get the $19.87 price from a web search. I got it by doing a search for that item on the TTH page. When I clicked on the search result that is the price that was listed for the item. This was on my phone so I sent the link to my email and when I opened it the higher price was displayed.
Is it possible that I am the only one who has searched for that item in a long time at TTH and my search updated the pricing? Maybe this is related to the model of third party shippers as discussed in the Klein thread. TTH used to have it in stock and it was priced at $19.87. Now it is available from a big wharehouse and the pricing software just marked it up.
I am not trying to spread conspiracy theories. I have an interest in how businesses are run and found this intriguing.
hbgatsf It's not a big deal but I didn't get the $19.87 price from a web search. I got it by doing a search for that item on the TTH page. When I clicked on the search result that is the price that was listed for the item. This was on my phone so I sent the link to my email and when I opened it the higher price was displayed. Is it possible that I am the only one who has searched for that item in a long time at TTH and my search updated the pricing? Maybe this is related to the model of third party shippers as discussed in the Klein thread. TTH used to have it in stock and it was priced at $19.87. Now it is available from a big wharehouse and the pricing software just marked it up.
Rick, TTH is part of Bowser, their whole operation is in Montoursville, PA. It is a family run business. Their web pages are not always the slickest most up to date IT tech. In fact they recently upgraded because they were hacked by scammers about a year ago. Same answer likely applies, somehow you got an older cached page.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I cannot otherwise explain your experiance, call them and ask them. You will get a person who knows what is going on.
I have to say a bit more about his whole situation.
To Rick, or any of you. Have you physically been to Walthers, or Bachmann, or Bowser, or Atlas, or LifeLike back in the day in Baltimore? Or ModelTrainStuff? I have been to most of those listed above and to several regional old fashioned hobby "wholesale warehouses" back in the day when I managed a train department in a hobby shop.
Do you have any idea how "small" this industry is compared to anything you buy from Amazon?
The biggest warehouse in this industry is likely Athearn, because they are part of Horizon and sell a WHOLE lot more than just model trains. I would bet the "ATHEARN" part of the warehouse is no bigger than the Walthers building in Milwaukee.
And ATHEARN does not sell other "wholesale" distributors. Product goes directly to retailers, including TTH for sale to customers. OR, it is picked and packed for shipment direclty to customers who order on the Horizon/Athearn web site.
The operation at Walthers is similar for items that are Walthers branded.
At one time Walthers actually manufactured products there, and ran a wholesale distribution warehouse of other brands. We all know where the actual manufacturing went.
Hattons may be gearing up to have Walthers, Bowser, Atlas, Bachmann and others drop ship to their ModelTrainStuff customers, but I think that will be a first in this business, at least a first on a large scale.
When I buy from Trainworld or ToyTrainHeaven, my packages clearly come from their established business address. Same if I mail order from Yankee Dabbler or Mainline Hobby Supply.
You would likely be surprised to learn how small these operations are, and how few people they employ.
ModelTrainStuff - half the building on the corner with the white roof.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.4785608,-76.6529904,112m/data=!3m1!1e3?authuser=0&entry=ttu
It is still a cottage industry.
I believe it is the practice of some businesses to assign your computer a browsing cookie, and you get the prices you see initially. Scair Canada used to be/is like that, as are most airlines. You find a pretty sweet deal to fly to somewhere, you go away to do something, and when you click back you get an inflated price. Gotcha!!
selector I believe it is the practice of some businesses to assign your computer a browsing cookie, and you get the prices you see initially. Scair Canada used to be/is like that, as are most airlines. You find a pretty sweet deal to fly to somewhere, you go away to do something, and when you click back you get an inflated price. Gotcha!!
Wow, I think in the model train world this would drive customers away in droves.
Air fares are the worlds best example of predatory pricing. Just one reason why I have never flown much.
Having spend a a fair amount of time on the ToyTrainHeaven web sight, I am more than confident nothing like that is going on there.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL selector I believe it is the practice of some businesses to assign your computer a browsing cookie, and you get the prices you see initially. Scair Canada used to be/is like that, as are most airlines. You find a pretty sweet deal to fly to somewhere, you go away to do something, and when you click back you get an inflated price. Gotcha!! Wow, I think in the model train world this would drive customers away in droves. Air fares are the worlds best example of predatory pricing. Just one reason why I have never flown much. Having spend a a fair amount of time on the ToyTrainHeaven web sight, I am more than confident nothing like that is going on there. Sheldon
This was the first time I had visited the TTH website so I don't know the history of it. When did they start using ThemeHunk? It could just be that nobody had looked at this item since they started using them and there was a glitch that showed a cached price. Once it was "in the system" it displayed current pricing. It could also be an issue with a new or updated version of the software. You said the folks at TTH are not tech savy. That could compound the problem.
hbgatsf ATLANTIC CENTRAL selector I believe it is the practice of some businesses to assign your computer a browsing cookie, and you get the prices you see initially. Scair Canada used to be/is like that, as are most airlines. You find a pretty sweet deal to fly to somewhere, you go away to do something, and when you click back you get an inflated price. Gotcha!! Wow, I think in the model train world this would drive customers away in droves. Air fares are the worlds best example of predatory pricing. Just one reason why I have never flown much. Having spend a a fair amount of time on the ToyTrainHeaven web sight, I am more than confident nothing like that is going on there. Sheldon This was the first time I had visited the TTH website so I don't know the history of it. When did they start using ThemeHunk? It could just be that nobody had looked at this item since they started using them and there was a glitch that showed a cached price. Once it was "in the system" it displayed current pricing. It could also be an issue with a new or updated version of the software. You said the folks at TTH are not tech savy. That could compound the problem.
And I'm not that tech savy, nor do I care to be. I have no idea what ThemeHunk is other than to assume it is some web page templete software.
About a year ago hackers put up a fake mirror site in an attempt to scam people. TTH was pretty quik to change their site and take care of the situation.
I know when that happened I had to create a new account on the web page and I called them about my preorders. Turned out the web page is not electronically connected to their "real" in house order system and they confirmed my preorder was still on file and everyones info secure.
As I said before, I was able to find a google seach link with the part number and the price you saw, but when you click the link you get a TTH multi page display of Walthers buildings that do not show the item in question at all.
I don't really now how "tech savy" they are, but as I have tried to explain, these are small companies, you can bet they do not have some high paid full time IT guy.
I was programing industrial programable logic controllers in the early 80's, but I am no longer in a tech intense occupation (in fact I am close to retirement) and computers are not a "hobby" for me. I understand the broad strokes, but have not kept up in any way at all.
But I know how this business works, and nobody was purposely trying to bait and switch you over $3.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have no idea what ThemeHunk is other than to assume it is some web page templete software.
I have no idea what ThemeHunk is other than to assume it is some web page templete software.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But I know how this business works, and nobody was purposely trying to bait and switch you over $3.
I'll try this one more time.
I wasn't saying TTH was trying to bait and switch. Nor is $3 worth agonizing over. I don't care as I am not going to buy the item from TTH (even at the $19 price) because they don't have everything I want right now. You had brought them up as a preferred vendor for you and I decided to check a price on an item I want. I was just curious as to how this happened.
One reason for that curiosity is that I know that software companies have the ability to build algorithims into their product that can produce predatory practices. Knowing who uses it is part of being an informed consumer.
hbgatsf ATLANTIC CENTRAL But I know how this business works, and nobody was purposely trying to bait and switch you over $3. I'll try this one more time. I wasn't saying TTH was trying to bait and switch. Nor is $3 worth agonizing over. I don't care as I am not going to buy the item from TTH (even at the $19 price) because they don't have everything I want right now. You had brought them up as a preferred vendor for you and I decided to check a price on an item I want. I was just curious as to how this happened. One reason for that curiosity is that I know that software companies have the ability to build algorithims into their product that can produce predatory practices. Knowing who uses it is part of being an informed consumer.
OK
Hi. I'm new to this thread.
Sheldon is absolutely 100% on target. I once worked for both Bowser and Toy Train Heaven. It is still a family owned and operated business with relatively few employees (and with some actual family members no longer involved). After 73 years, they recently closed the family's retail train store (2 key store employees had moved on) and are (or were very recently when I last ordered) still blowing out some of that limited store inventory on TTH, so there are some deals to be had there. They would not have the time or energy to be playing any kind of pricing games. That is most definitely not their thing and just never was.
I buy from many online sellers now. Some of them, including but not limited to Lombard Hobby in Chicago, do show lower sale prices to signed-in "members", but I do not know of any of them intentionally playing any kind of pricing games. Lombard shows me $20 off some locomotives beyond their regular pricing--but that's all the extra discount ever has been--and you have to be signed in to see it. It also generally won't apply to brand-new or in-demand items, but more to stuff that has been around for awhile.
This is my opinion only, but we have reached a time when the disreputable sellers are just gone. The ones who still remain in business, in my experience (and Sheldon knows I change my mind way too often and buy/sell way too many trains as a result), have a reputation for being pretty honest. If they are not, they will not last at all.
Shipping issues--something maybe getting damaged due to inferior packaging--that can happen, but the stuff I've been receiving from all over the country has been adequately advertised and priced.
Respectfully submitted--
John