As model railroaders, be us prototype modellers, proto-lancers, or free lancers, we all make compromises from reality. Some are matters of convenience or practicality imposed by the real world - curve radii far smaller than the prototype, coupler heads that are far bigger than the prototype, short trains, and small distances between industries are all common compromises.
But, what of compromises made to history? I've heard many a modeller explain what minor changes happened to history for the freelanced, or proto-lanced layout, to exist. More minor still are changes to enable other options of rolling stock and the like. Of course, the only justification we ever truly need is that it is our railroad - but I am sure some of the more retentive of us still worm in justifications - I definitely do.
For my version of the Copper Range Railroad, the post-WW1 copper crash never happened - at least, it didn't cause the mass closures of mines that it did in our real world. This means that I have a wide variety of prototype copper mines to choose from, fewer locomotives have been scrapped, and some more modern power can show up in the 1930s where I prefer to model - I always wanted a Doodlebug, so the more prosperous mines allow me to "justify" having one.
Does anyone else have any similar justifications for why their layouts, prototype, protolanced, or freelanced, are they way they are? Anyone have any general thoughts on this topic?
What a great topic!
I focused more on home reporting mark (N&W) after reading about what percentage is home compared to away reporting marks. Additionally, I focus on getting away reporting marks of ones prototyplically seen on a southern VA N&W-used layout.
Some could care less about reporting marks but others wnat to make things more realistic. Whatever works. No right way. Fave fun!
I have considered modeling passenger operations as if the US government decided to pay railroads to continue to operate their own passenger trains rather than forming Amtrak.
I have allowed the electrification from the end of the Pennsylvania to the end of the Milwaukee, just to let me run my GG1 to "somewhere" to drop off the GG1 and connect Milwaukee diesel power. The passenger cars and express reefers continue west, while the GG1 picks up its waiting passenger train and heads back east.
And, the prohibition against "billboard" advertising on boxcars never happened, so my string of ice-bunker reefers with beer and meat advertising on them are still allowed in interchange service.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
History sometimes if you are modeling a specific prototype is a bit hard to pin down. Photos of towns are not all taken on the same date. I have a couple of buildings in my Black Hawk Colorado scene for example that were demolished a little bit before my chosen year. It would have perhaps helped had that info surfaced before I built them but they are staying. I also have a bit of a time warp as my narrow gauge scenes are set about 1930 and my standard gauge is set about 1945 to 1946.
I originally was trying to proto-lance, but I lightened up and decided to call it a fictitious (no more issues with being prototype) ISL in an area sorta resembling an area IN the area I grew up in on the Oregon coast, mid to late 60s. I use mainly SP diesels, probably 1/3 SP cars, true to locality. It has 2 very recognisable prototype scratchbuilt structures that are accurate renditions, BUT were actually in Bend OR, and a 3rd is planned. Another structure planned is from Myrtle Point OR, our home in the late 60s.
To make it even less prototypical, the roundhouse is home to some 1870s and later steam, reasoning that when real steam ceased, the roundhouse and shop was acquired by private owners, who have the means to preserve the steamers. My SP engines are not serviced locally other than fuel and sand, maybe light repairs. The shop repairs and refurbishes small diesels for home use and to sell.
No visitors ever ask about the timeline or locale, but they definately recognise those structures if they saw them before their demolition. Dan
I protolance. (The logo for one of the roads is my avatar.) A few things I've bent to fit my modeling:
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
I model the BNSF Pikes Peak sub which runs from Denver south to Pueblo Colorado. In my world the BNSF owns all of the 120 miles of track. UP was forced to sell their track to the BNSF. Amtrak runs the Northwest Limited from Houston to Seattle which is the only passenger train to directly connect the gulf coast to the pacific northwest.
I don't know how this applies to me but, ...
Somehow 1923 Mack trucks are still operational in my 1970s towns...
Rust...... It's a good thing !
What I model, when I run steam engines, is ficticious. I have the three small railways running under the umbrella of a real one. The rail yard is a real one as is one of the stations.
Having real mixed with fiction has some people believing it is all real.
When I run diesels the layout is the same, but the timeframe jumps 50 or so years ahead. Trains still serve the same places.
Once again bringing the real to the unreal.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
Most of my locomotives are 1950-60s Canadian Pacific units in the maroon and grey livery, but I have a couple of earlier steamers too.
I will justify the steamers by modeling a museum/tourist railroad. That allows me to paint with a pretty broad brush. In addition to my rotary snow plow train, I will occassionally run Thomas The Train and Hogwarts Express (both with sound by the way). Thomas and Hogwarts will mostly be for younger guests.
I am modeling for my own pleasure so yes, I will run what I want
Cheers!!
Dave
P.S. Currently sitting on a balcony in Ontario cottage country. The weather is chilly and it is sprinkling rain, and the fall colours are mostly done, but it is still a wonderful place to be! Great company and great food too!
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I used to fret over historic accuracy.
Now,if it all looks good together, it's fine.
Paul
My entire layout is modern day except for a UP City of Los Angeles passenger train pulled by an E9 A&B.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
I suppose I mess with the space-time continuum a bit. I have a dual-era layout, mid 1930s and mid 1960s. Now and then, I stop time, pull the steamers into hidden staging and bring out the diesels. I go around with the 0-5-0 and remove the vehicles and replace them with older ones. One of these days I'll get around to building the old dance hall to replace the modern movie theater. I replace the gas price signs and the pumps.
It all lets me run what I want with a bit of happiness.
Curious about some factor(s) which drive us to make compromises to history? Is it supply/demand? Nostalgia? Lack of suitable funds, etc.?
No question about tastes and preferences change of what we want to do. Sometimes, reality is a factor too. Just other stuff to consider I suppose.
I very nearly went with a version of history where the PRR extended their electrification to Pittsburgh. I decided against it because I'm a contemporary era person. I'd wanted to do it to justify running Amtrak electrics on a Pittsburgh layout, but the freight issue was too much. I'd be starting from scratch on freight motors.
I presumed if the PRR had electrified that much territory, then Conrail would have retained it, and NS would have likely kept it too. I'd either have to invent locomotives, run everything behind freight versions of AEM-7s, ALP-46s, and ACS-64s, or import pricey Euro equipment.
As a foreigner, I thought that modelling a US prototype was not for me, yes there is the internet but I reckon being able to actually visit the prototype is important. So, after a fair amount of dithering, I decided that because coal and cement were going to be the “big” commodities on my free-lanced railroad that it would be loosely based on an amalgam of the Clinchfield and to a lesser degree, the Delaware & Hudson. However, I was driven to scratch build a car ferry based on the Wabash RR Detroit River car ferry, Windsor, so my biggest dilemma is how can I justify the extra 450 mile, or thereabouts, trackage from the Appalachians to Detroit. Secondly my freelanced railroad, with a mid 1950s cutoff date, (yes, the 58 Chevy Belaire is another minor issue) has also still too many steam locomotives in service! All in all though, I can happily live with my decisions. Having Fun, Cheers, the Bear.
There were a number of US railroads that ran from the Appalachians to the Great Lakes, especially to Lake Erie and less to Lake Ontario, that carried coal to the lake boats. Some of them used car ferries to take the coal cars to Canada. The last of these (car ferry) lasted until 1958.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtabula_(ferry)#:~:text=Ashtabula%20was%20built%20in%201906,with%20the%20steamer%20Ben%20Moreell.
MidlandMikeThere were a number of US railroads that ran from the Appalachians to the Great Lakes, especially to Lake Erie...
My freelance "St.Paul Route" is based on two real railroads. The St.Paul and Duluth RR was bought by the Northern Pacific Ry in 1900. A few months later, Canadian Northern (later to be come Canadian National) bought the Port Arthur, Duluth & Western Ry. (Port Arthur and Ft. William Ontario merged in 1970 to become Thunder Bay.)
In my "alternate reality", neither purchase happened. Instead the two railroads merged and built a line up the north shore of Lake Superior to connect the two. In reality, such a line was proposed many times, but was never built.
I don't 'model'. I protolance, sort of, but I essentially run what I like. I try to create a realistic setting here and there on the layout, and then just enjoy watching steamers churn their valve gear. That suffices for me. However, I do, very sincerely, appreciate what others put themselves through in order to research, to acquire, to conceptualize, and then to create highly realistic scale representations of places and operations that happen, or that happened, there. Deep respect. I just don't want to do it.
MisterBeasleyAnd, the prohibition against "billboard" advertising on boxcars never happened, so my string of ice-bunker reefers with beer and meat advertising on them are still allowed in interchange service.
Billboard reefers actually were never banned.
Ideally, railroads wanted a car to carry a load both ways, as the railroad got paid more for hauling freight than hauling air. However, company A, B and C wouldn't ship their products in a billboard reefer lettered for their competitor, company D. So company D's car was sent back to them empty.
Basically the 1930s change was that, if the lettering on a private reefer was over a certain height (something like 16-24" IIRC), the owner/lessor of the car had to pay for it to be sent back empty at the rate it would have gotten if full. So a company could continue to have large 'billboard' lettering on their car, but it was more expensive than most companies wanted to pay.
BTW railroad-owned boxcars could still have whatever lettering the railroad wanted, so about the same time railroads started lettering cars with large railroad names, heralds, and slogans advertising their service and their top passenger trains.
I have one locomotive that I can assure you that it's historically accurate for pre 1937. It's a Westside brass PRR K5s #5698. It took me several years to acquire as many photos, parts, hand make grabs, keystone number plate, builders plates, trust plaques, paint and decals. I modeled it for pre 1937 before the stoker, shroud around the exhaust stack and front end throttle and smoke box mounted turbo generator. I'll never do it again.
I don't really care if I'm running a mix of high mount headlights with low mount ones. Lines West with Lines East. Sometimes I'll run a coal drag with my NS SD60 that supports the troops on the head end of a consist of ALCO RS and RSD locomotives.
Pete.
MisterBeasley I have allowed the electrification from the end of the Pennsylvania to the end of the Milwaukee, just to let me run my GG1 to "somewhere" to drop off the GG1 and connect Milwaukee diesel power. The passenger cars and express reefers continue west, while the GG1 picks up its waiting passenger train and heads back east. And, the prohibition against "billboard" advertising on boxcars never happened, so my string of ice-bunker reefers with beer and meat advertising on them are still allowed in interchange service.
Both of these seem like common ones - the GG1 is an iconic locomotive. If I were to do my "dream" electrification layout, it'd be the interchange between Milwaukee Road electric and PRR Electric, as well as some interurban stuff. That's not what I am actually doing, but it would be interesting to see.
drgwcs History sometimes if you are modeling a specific prototype is a bit hard to pin down. Photos of towns are not all taken on the same date. I have a couple of buildings in my Black Hawk Colorado scene for example that were demolished a little bit before my chosen year. It would have perhaps helped had that info surfaced before I built them but they are staying. I also have a bit of a time warp as my narrow gauge scenes are set about 1930 and my standard gauge is set about 1945 to 1946.
This is definitely part of why I brought the topic up - even the most hardcore prototype modeller is likely to do some amount of wiggling.
NorthBrit What I model, when I run steam engines, is ficticious. I have the three small railways running under the umbrella of a real one. The rail yard is a real one as is one of the stations. Having real mixed with fiction has some people believing it is all real. When I run diesels the layout is the same, but the timeframe jumps 50 or so years ahead. Trains still serve the same places. Once again bringing the real to the unreal. David
I think being good enough that people believe that it is real is the goal of every model railroader - especially prototype and proto-lance modellers!
Ah, a topic reminiscent of the past “Philosophy Friday” threads. Thank you!
That was the goal!
As a foreigner, I thought that modelling a US prototype was not for me, yes there is the internet but I reckon being able to actually visit the prototype is important.
Even in the US that can prove to be a difficulty - if I were to model, say, the Sierra Railroad, as a midwesterner, it'd take me quite a long time to visit. Not to mention other minor, remote railroads that once scattered the country. I find out new railroads existed even in my home state a few times a year!
kasskaboose Curious about some factor(s) which drive us to make compromises to history? Is it supply/demand? Nostalgia? Lack of suitable funds, etc.? No question about tastes and preferences change of what we want to do. Sometimes, reality is a factor too. Just other stuff to consider I suppose.
That's definitely a good question - obviously stuff like radius, turnout size, etc. is modified by desires.
As I said, I protolance because everything I "want" to see didn't exist at one point in time, and there's some not-prototypical equipment I want. The make believe land also makes me feel better about using commercially available rolling stock that isn't an exact match for the prototype - after all, if it is a different timeline maybe they did get a second order of steel ore cars that actually worked in ore service. That's just my thoughts on it though.
wjstix Billboard reefers actually were never banned. Ideally, railroads wanted a car to carry a load both ways, as the railroad got paid more for hauling freight than hauling air. However, company A, B and C wouldn't ship their products in a billboard reefer lettered for their competitor, company D. So company D's car was sent back to them empty. Basically the 1930s change was that, if the lettering on a private reefer was over a certain height (something like 16-24" IIRC), the owner/lessor of the car had to pay for it to be sent back empty at the rate it would have gotten if full. So a company could continue to have large 'billboard' lettering on their car, but it was more expensive than most companies wanted to pay. BTW railroad-owned boxcars could still have whatever lettering the railroad wanted, so about the same time railroads started lettering cars with large railroad names, heralds, and slogans advertising their service and their top passenger trains.
Worth noting as well that many earlier billboard reefers were for alcohol companies, so most of them went out of service due to prohibition anyways.
allegedlynerdyWorth noting as well that many earlier billboard reefers were for alcohol companies, so most of them went out of service due to prohibition anyways.
True...sort of. When Prohibition started, the cars themselves weren't taken out of service, just repainted or leased to some other company. Pabst for example began making Pabst-ett cheese and had billboard reefers decorated for that. Prohibition ended in 1933, I believe the billboard car restrictions came in the next year.
I'm in the middle of developing a scenario by which some of my favorite cars and locos can run together. I want an ex Family Lines GP38 pulling athearn shorty pulpwood and wood chip cars.
No big deal, I'm changing history to where the Family Lines paint scheme came into existance in the 1970s instead of the 80s and the shorty cars lasted until about 1979. Just a few years of changing reality on both sides.
- Douglas
Little TimmyI don't know how this applies to me but, ... Somehow 1923 Mack trucks are still operational in my 1970s towns...
Had the electrification been extended to Pittsburgh on the 1943 plan (very likely had Majestic been required against Japan!) there would be even more impetus to adopt the Garrett AiResearch 'dual-mode-lite' proposal -- which includes very detailed kitbash instructions that are not much more involved externally than sticking a Brecknell-Willis pan and some other stuff on six-motor dash-2s. This just operates diesel west of Conway instead of Enola... and gives you the option to give the treatment to later power from other builders. A significant point is that the GE rebuilt E-44, which had no 'future' after Amtrak got the electrified NEC, would have extensive potential application in straight-electric service with the line not being as high-speed-sensitive as the Corridor (particularly after Chase in 1987).
For even more fun, imagine the Sam Rea line built with its connections west through Ohio and east directly to Manhattan, re-electrified with opened-up tunnels and catenary...
NorthBrit I have the three small railways running under the umbrella of a real one.
There was a prototype, all proudly painted as the herald on the tenders of every locomotive - "The railroads that fell under the control and common management of the Muskogee Company were colloquially referred to as the Muskogee Roads. The Muskogee Roads were made up of the Midland Valley Railroad, the Kansas, Oklahoma and Gulf Railway, the Oklahoma City-Ada-Atoka Railway, and indirectly, the Osage Railway."
MidlandMikeThere were a number of US railroads that ran from the Appalachians to the Great Lakes, especially to Lake Erie and less to Lake Ontario, that carried coal to the lake boats. Some of them used car ferries to take the coal cars to Canada.
Pennsy RR Elmira Branch (historicsoduspoint.com)