So this is a topic that has come up before, but I'm just bringing it around again as more of a round table discussion on how, today, we have some of the best detailed mass produced steam locomotives ever available, but those still seem to be limited to the transition era, or late golden age at best.
The 2-8-0s we have are 150 ton monsters not seen before the 1920s, the 0-6-0s and 0-8-0s are USRA, most other locomotives are road specific, and usually offered in a modernized style to fit with the later changes made on steam locomotives.
Even geared locomotives like Shays are mostly offered in the monstrous sizes that were seldom seen - 4 trucks are the norm, 3 trucks are rare, I've never seen a 2 truck shay offered in HO outside of brass
What of the 100 ton, or even 98 ton Consolidations? The occasional one is offered by Athearn using the old MDC/Roundhouse molds, things like modernized 4-4-0s are occasionally seen from spectrum, though best I can tell the last run of those was nearly a decade ago.
It seems that, in a time where smaller and more modest layouts are coming to replace the basement empires, the small steam of the past would be ideal - they look good on smaller radius track, they go with shorter rolling stock that can handle it - manufacturers do, on occasion, make those 50' or even sub 40' passenger cars - and miniaturization of DCC electronics for N scale shows that fitting the required mechanisms in the scale is possible - if BLI can make an N scale T1 with sound, 0-6-0T engines should be possible. Add to that more common capacitor systems for better running, and that many are switching to powered frogs regardless, and it seems inexplicable.
There was an excellent editorial in RMC last year titled 'A plea for smaller steam' in which the author lamented all the things you mention. Smaller steam was the normal of the steam era and those unique monsters manufacturers seem fixated on were rarities both in numbers and geographic dispersion. As a steam era N scaler, I like to buy locos to support any manufacturer that makes a quality steam loco. Unfortunately, Big Boys, Pennsy T-1s and other unique locos can't possibly fit my layout theme or size so I have to pass on them. Fortunately, I've heard that Bachmann is re-releasing their excellent N scale 4-6-0 in a generic turn of the 20th century model. If true, I can't wait to buy a few.
I started model railroading as a tot in elementary school. Now, I'm 76 years old and retired. That's a lot of years in the hobby, but it's also a lot of years for the prototypes as well. We have to remember that the companies who build the models we love have a longer railroad history to examine and model as well. Few model companies choose to specialize in an era, or a type of engine. Keeping all of us happy at once is a daunting task. Business-wise, they must produce popular models.
Another issue is the aging of modelers. How many of us actually have seen steam engines in revenue service? That's not a situation that will improve, either. My earliest train memories are 4-axle diesels and electric commuter rail and subways. Guess what I started modeling.
I agree with you on how desirable small steam is, and it does fill a sweet spot in my modeling. I model both the late Transition Era and the 1930s. My layout size would not accommodate either Big Steam or Big Diesel, but more modest engines of either type are fine.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
My HO scale layout is also a transition era model and even though it fills my two-car garage, I had to use 22" radius curves to fit everything I wanted into the available space while still leaving adequate space for my operators and me. This meant that any steam locos I wanted needed to be small to be able to negotiate the small radius curves. I was fortunate to acquire three very inexpensive (closeout) MDC 2-6-2 Prarie kits before the old Standard Hobby went out of business. These worked quite well until their increasing mileage started to cause wobbles and limping operation I can't seem to cure.
When Bachmann introduced their Spectrum line 2-6-0 Mogul, I purchased three at low introductory prices. These have been little gems. I also broke down and purchased the downgraded to Bachmann Standard line 2-8-0 Consolidation but this loco never ran worth a darn. I returned it and received a new replacement but this one ran only marginally better. After a lot of tinkering, this loco is now a shelf queen! I've always wanted to purhase a Bachmann Russian Decopod and a 4-6-0 but the prices keep rising faster than my budget can keep up. Last but not least, I purchased an Athearn Old Timer Consolidation. This loco does indeed look a little old for my layout but it runs great! Odd thing is that not a single layout visitor has commented on the applicability of any of these steamers to my layout era or railroad. Instead, they just enjoy running the layout!
I do run a lot of diesels but they are all four-axle units. A guy did bring a couple of BLI EMD E unit diesels to a recent open house I hosted. He had just equipped them with Bluenami decoders and wanted to test them. Much to my surprise, these two locos ran around my layout without a hitch!
Hornblower
It probably costs just as much to make the tooling and set up production of a small locomotive as a large one. Probably as much for labor as well. The cost of materials is the smallest percentage of the manufacturing cost. Then add in overhead costs like utilities and leasing/owning factory space, taxes, etc that are identical no matter what the size of the locomotive. BUT, the customers will expect it to be less expensive ("It's smaller, man"),and you can see why huge late steam is what predominates.
I have a BLI PRR H10s (53000 lbs TF) on the Nittany Central, The prototype Bellefonte Central had three H9s's (49000 lbs TF). I consider them to be heavy Consolidations, but not in the same league as super Consolidations such as the RDG I10sa (71000 lbs), L&HR Class 90 (72000 lbs) and WM H9a (68,000 lbs). In order to go a smaller machine I have a PRR H6sb (44000 lbs) in brass by Lambert.
As I am modeling the transition era, that was what the PRR had for sale from the 1930's on. The NC interchanges with the PRR Bald Eagle Brach (Tyrone-Lock Haven) which gives me the excuse to run I1's, K4's, L1's and the occasional M1 breaking in after shopping at Altoona.This is modeled as a mostly concealed loop to and from a double ended fiddle yard, with only Milesburg modeled. It was the first part I built, to perfect my construction techniques and to satisfy the desire to run something while building the NC, an idea I owe to the late, great John Armstrong.
Try looking at brass. My most recent one is a PRR H6sb 2-8-0. It's a little smaller brother to the H8. I also have a 2-6-0 F3a that would date to around 1890s. Some tinkering and remotor work may be in order.
My H6sb was $300 factory painted. The decoder and speaker I bought on sale for $100.
The F3a dates back to the 50s from Japan. Super tuned the open frame motor and installed a Loksound select decoder. I've run it so much that the plating is worn off the wheels. That also was factory painted and pin stripe too.
My favorite switcher is an Overland B6sb 0-6-0. Loksound micro and added pickups. Also factory painted.
Pete
Well, the retooled Baldwin Civil war 4-4-0 made by Bachmann is VERY nice and runs way better than any other model offered before. My Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 runs well too. The Athearn models also run quite well. The mass-produced stuff in the '70s was not great, although my old Rivarossi Heisler still gets mileage on my layout.
What I really miss is the old HOn3 MDC stuff.
Simon
I model 1900-1905 so I am all small steam and yes it's a problem.
But the real problem is not just the engines, its the cars too.
There hasn't be a new pre-1910 wood underframe car introduced in plastic in over 50 years. The major commodity hauled pre WW1 was coal and there isn't a single accurate wood coal car in HO plastic, kit or RTR.
Basically the manufacturers have abandoned the era.
Even the "old timer" cars produced by Roundhouse are detailed for the WW1 to 1920's era. Most of the Roundhouse 2-8-0's and 4-4-0's are detailed as 1920's engines as are the Bachmann 4-6-0 and 4-4-0's.
Other than the Roundhouse cars, which outside the details are very nice cars and do have 1900 era appropriate paint schemes, the other early cars are barely above "train set' quality of details and finish and the tooling designs are typical of the 1960's production.
Smaller, older steam won't become popular until there is something for them to pull.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Bachmann makes some really nice stuff in HO and I would be happy with their 4-4-0 if I was in HO.
I think we're in a renaissance for MR steam models. In many ways prototyp steam is more accessible to younger generations now than to anyone that saw it in commercial use. We are fortunate to have a great many restored locomotives in operation today. My kids have experienced more steam operations than they have modem diesels simply because current rail operations are far removed from the public.
There might be a practical reason why the larger steam is what the importers prefer to offer: more reliability in the drive function and electronics. Not to mention that the larger models can pull more, which is always a bug-bear for we modelers.
I think the smaller scales, with their smaller engines, have a tough time manufacturing and selling drive mechanisms, with the necessary weight around them under the shell, that customers will be willing to buy and to recommend to others for their reliable performance. These things are hand-assembled, and that tiny Shay has to be put together.........somehow. And run well. It's a big ask, even today. But a Y6-b has a lot of room for the hefty drive AND weight that makes it my go-to, all by its lonesome, to push my CMX track cleaner. And, it's my most reliable steamer. It just goes, and goes...
hornblowerWhen Bachmann introduced their Spectrum line 2-6-0 Mogul, I purchased three at low introductory prices. These have been little gems.
Was this model ever made in HO scale standard gauge?
I have only seen it in On30.
BEAUSABREIt probably costs just as much to make the tooling and set up production of a small locomotive as a large one. Probably as much for labor as well. The cost of materials is the smallest percentage of the manufacturing cost. Then add in overhead costs like utilities and leasing/owning factory space, taxes, etc that are identical no matter what the size of the locomotive. BUT, the customers will expect it to be less expensive ("It's smaller, man"),and you can see why huge late steam is what predominates.
That is excactly it right there. If it costs X to produce a model, and you can sell a 2-8-2 or a 4-8-2 for 1.75(X), why would you make a 2-6-0 or 4-4-2 that will only sell for 1.3(X)?
I remember while I was in high school (1981-1985) reading that small brass models of steam locomotives were going away for this same reason. They cost the same to manufacture, but the customers expect them to be less expensive because they are smaller.
It is very common in the secondary marketplaces for small brass steam locomotives to sell for way more than some mikados or berkshires. It is hard to find a brass model of a small steam locomotive imported after the early 1980s.
snjroy my old Rivarossi Heisler still gets mileage on my layout.
Mine too. I used it as a switcher in the "Spare Bedroom" layout, and plan to continue use it.
dehusmanBut the real problem is not just the engines, its the cars too.
Another great point. Even in the transition era, it can be difficult to find the appropriate models to make a suitably varied fleet of freight cars.
Thankfully, we have Westerfield, Funaro & Camerlengo, Sunshine, Yarmouth, and a few brass models to fill in the blanks. In plastic everything looks very generic.
selectorNot to mention that the larger models can pull more, which is always a bug-bear for we modelers.
Not for me! As the OP posted, smaller home layouts are becoming the normal way to enjoy this hobby. Pulling power should become less of a consideration.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190hornblower When Bachmann introduced their Spectrum line 2-6-0 Mogul, I purchased three at low introductory prices. These have been little gems. Was this model ever made in HO scale standard gauge? I have only seen it in On30.
Well, since I own three standard gauge Bachmann 2-6-0 Moguls in HO scale, Bachmann must have made them in standard gauge.
hornblowerWell, since I own three standard gauge Bachmann 2-6-0 Moguls in HO scale, Bachmann must have made them in standard gauge.
OK... something else I will keep half of an eye out for.
Thanks.
SeeYou190 hornblower Well, since I own three standard gauge Bachmann 2-6-0 Moguls in HO scale, Bachmann must have made them in standard gauge. OK... something else I will keep half of an eye out for. Thanks. -Kevin
hornblower Well, since I own three standard gauge Bachmann 2-6-0 Moguls in HO scale, Bachmann must have made them in standard gauge.
One problem I would think is that very few folks model the pre-WW1 era. The USRA allows model companies to make one engine, like a USRA light Mikado, that was used by many railroads. That's more economical than making engines that are only correct for one railroad.
Also, remember that in real railroading, small engines like switchers and brancline engines were often the first to be replaced by diesels, beginning in the 1930s. Even if you model a railroad that ran big freight and passenger steam in the 1940s or 50s, there's a good chance most of the smaller jobs were done by diesels.
This thread reminds me a lot of the old Philosophy Phriday threads, which were a lot more general and wide-ranging than many of our problem specific threads. A lot of thinking goes into the replies, and a lot more forum members are drawn into the discussions. That's good for the threads.
So, thank you for starting this. We're enjoying it.
Just want to say wow, I did not expect this much discussion! A lot of good points were brought up.
BEAUSABRE It probably costs just as much to make the tooling and set up production of a small locomotive as a large one. Probably as much for labor as well. The cost of materials is the smallest percentage of the manufacturing cost. Then add in overhead costs like utilities and leasing/owning factory space, taxes, etc that are identical no matter what the size of the locomotive. BUT, the customers will expect it to be less expensive ("It's smaller, man"),and you can see why huge late steam is what predominates.
This is definitely true - however I wouldn't mind if manufacturers went with less well detailed, more generic smaller locomotives, and gave us the option to superdetail more. Buying a $500 locomotive just to redetail it is a hard sell for me - something less detailed would bring the cost down, I suspect, and cover the issues with the (lack of) standardization of early locomotives.
wrench567 Try looking at brass. My most recent one is a PRR H6sb 2-8-0. It's a little smaller brother to the H8. I also have a 2-6-0 F3a that would date to around 1890s. Some tinkering and remotor work may be in order. My H6sb was $300 factory painted. The decoder and speaker I bought on sale for $100.
I would not expect to get a Brass locomotive for lower prices - I will have to keep an eye out more, I suppose.
dehusman I model 1900-1905 so I am all small steam and yes it's a problem. But the real problem is not just the engines, its the cars too. There hasn't be a new pre-1910 wood underframe car introduced in plastic in over 50 years. The major commodity hauled pre WW1 was coal and there isn't a single accurate wood coal car in HO plastic, kit or RTR. Basically the manufacturers have abandoned the era. Even the "old timer" cars produced by Roundhouse are detailed for the WW1 to 1920's era. Most of the Roundhouse 2-8-0's and 4-4-0's are detailed as 1920's engines as are the Bachmann 4-6-0 and 4-4-0's.
Luckily I model the Depression era so later locomotive details are less important to me - most of the details have to be swapped.
A big thing, for me at least, is building a craftsman wood boxcar is a lot more approachable than performing big modifications to a locomotive.
selector There might be a practical reason why the larger steam is what the importers prefer to offer: more reliability in the drive function and electronics. Not to mention that the larger models can pull more, which is always a bug-bear for we modelers.
I'd generally agree - but things like capacitors and generally better pickup are becoming much more common. As far as tractive power, even the few smaller presently available locomotives have much better pulling power than the older athearn diesels that were staples of many layouts.
snjroy SeeYou190 hornblower Well, since I own three standard gauge Bachmann 2-6-0 Moguls in HO scale, Bachmann must have made them in standard gauge. OK... something else I will keep half of an eye out for. Thanks. -Kevin I agree, they are great little engines, at very low cost. Simon
SeeYou190
hornblower
I agree, they are great little engines, at very low cost.
The Spectrum 2-6-0 on me and my dad's Pennsylvania layout we had when I was in middle/highschool definitely sparked my interest in smaller steam - it often ran better than the other, larger locomotives we tried out at the time!
wjstix Also, remember that in real railroading, small engines like switchers and brancline engines were often the first to be replaced by diesels, beginning in the 1930s. Even if you model a railroad that ran big freight and passenger steam in the 1940s or 50s, there's a good chance most of the smaller jobs were done by diesels.
Perhaps I am unusual, but the prototype I love didn't get a single diesel until the mid-40s, to start replacing their steam fleet that was all built between 1900-1910 (the two units from 1920 had already been retired by then).
I guess the prototype is lucky as 2/3rds of all the diesels the railroad owned have had models made in HO scale - they only had three diesels, but two of them being available by Bowser is nice.
MisterBeasley This thread reminds me a lot of the old Philosophy Phriday threads, which were a lot more general and wide-ranging than many of our problem specific threads. A lot of thinking goes into the replies, and a lot more forum members are drawn into the discussions. That's good for the threads. So, thank you for starting this. We're enjoying it.
I am very happy to hear it, and this discussion has been very interesting and invigorating
SeeYou190That is excactly it right there. If it costs X to produce a model, and you can sell a 2-8-2 or a 4-8-2 for 1.75(X), why would you make a 2-6-0 or 4-4-2 that will only sell for 1.3(X)?
BEAUSABRE SeeYou190 That is excactly it right there. If it costs X to produce a model, and you can sell a 2-8-2 or a 4-8-2 for 1.75(X), why would you make a 2-6-0 or 4-4-2 that will only sell for 1.3(X)? Even for folks who got their start as a hobbiest, once things become a business, their perspective changes. "The roof is starting to leak, Billy needs braces, Sally's ballet class bill is due, the car needs new tires, the wife wants a real vacation this year..."
SeeYou190 That is excactly it right there. If it costs X to produce a model, and you can sell a 2-8-2 or a 4-8-2 for 1.75(X), why would you make a 2-6-0 or 4-4-2 that will only sell for 1.3(X)?
Even for folks who got their start as a hobbiest, once things become a business, their perspective changes. "The roof is starting to leak, Billy needs braces, Sally's ballet class bill is due, the car needs new tires, the wife wants a real vacation this year..."
We took a real vacation in Hawaii. We rode the Sugar Train attraction, which appears to be defunct as much of it burned in the Maui fires this year. Fortunately, the "small steam" engines were saved and will likely be trucked out and sailed to somewhere on the mainland.
Ballet? When my daughter was young, we attended a recital. The sound system crapped out, and the teachers were at loss for what to do. Christmas carols? We had an audience full of parents eager for the show, so we all sang the songs. The show must go on!
wjstixAlso, remember that in real railroading, small engines like switchers and brancline engines were often the first to be replaced by diesels, beginning in the 1930s. Even if you model a railroad that ran big freight and passenger steam in the 1940s or 50s, there's a good chance most of the smaller jobs were done by diesels.
You have this backward. It was big modern steam that was scrapped first, often with only a few years on the clock. Some cases only 3-5 years, it was heartbreaking. The reason for that is they operated on the well maintained mainlines on the most valuable routes. When they got bumped from the premier spots by the diesel, they couldn't be sent to secondary routes and branch lines because they were too big and heavy for the lighter track and tighter curves.
Diesels are very expensive and were in short supply early on. Railroads used them first on their most important and profitable trains where they could be better utilized. Small steam stayed on the secondary and branch lines long after the big steamers were scrapped. In most cases those little 4-4-0 were in service prior to modern steam and lasted well after modern steam was gone. It wasn't until second hand diesels became available or after the first line routes had fully diesalized that the branchlines received their diesels.
You might be confused with Doodlebugs or rail motor cars that were used on small branch lines. Those did replace small steam on routes where they were sufficient to do the work. Usually for carrying passengers and mail between small towns. But locomotives were needed for heavy freight and small steam stuck around well into the 1960s after all the class 1s had retired their steamers.
About steamers being limited to one railroad. Partly true partly myth. One other thing to keep in mind with small steamer is they lasted a long long time. 30-40 years was not uncommon. During that time they went through multiple owners. Sometimes small railroads bought a locomotive and that railroad was acquired and then acquired again and so big railroads would end up with an eclectic roster of second hand steamers. Or sometimes a small railroad could only afford second hand so they would receive hand me downs from more profitable railroads.
That's one of the advantages of modeling a lesser known railroad as often times they had eclectic steam locomotive rosters and they are not as well documented as the more famous lines. So no one knows if you're exactly right or not. Not so much with a Challenger on the Western Pacific or UP where if you get the sand dome off by 4" you're going to invoke the wrath of the rivet counters.
SeeYou190 I remember while I was in high school (1981-1985) reading that small brass models of steam locomotives were going away for this same reason. They cost the same to manufacture, but the customers expect them to be less expensive because they are smaller. It is very common in the secondary marketplaces for small brass steam locomotives to sell for way more than some mikados or berkshires. It is hard to find a brass model of a small steam locomotive imported after the early 1980s.
The problem in your statement is the customer not the product. Smaller doesn't mean less expensive and often it means more expensive. Not just true with model trains by the way.
When you state that small locomotives sell for more that larger ones on the second hand market, that's an indicator that customers understand this and will pay more for a small locomotive. Heck, they already are in your example.
MJ4562 About steamers being limited to one railroad. Partly true partly myth. One other thing to keep in mind with small steamer is they lasted a long long time. 30-40 years was not uncommon. During that time they went through multiple owners. Sometimes small railroads bought a locomotive and that railroad was acquired and then acquired again and so big railroads would end up with an eclectic roster of second hand steamers. Or sometimes a small railroad could only afford second hand so they would receive hand me downs from more profitable railroads. That's one of the advantages of modeling a lesser known railroad as often times they had eclectic steam locomotive rosters and they are not as well documented as the more famous lines. So no one knows if you're exactly right or not. Not so much with a Challenger on the Western Pacific or UP where if you get the sand dome off by 4" you're going to invoke the wrath of the rivet counters.
Not to mention that many small railroads would've retrofit the locomotive multiple times throughout its lifetime - the locomotive itself changes majorly between the construction date and later.
Additionally, many locomotive works did have "standard" basic designs that they sold - albeit each railroad shop would modify them a bit on arrival, and some specifications would be different. But if you look at a builder's photo of an Alco 2-8-0 that was delivered between 1900 and 1910, they all will be quite similar, and only rivet counters could tell the difference for most of them - that is also an ideal place to flex your superdetailing skills as well, of course.
Per the op's original post...
There WERE ho 2 and 3 truck Shays.
Model Die Casting !
I have built three, and have a few more in the stash.
A lot of people say the MDC Shays are junk. No. You just have to pay attention, and work carefully, and they are little jewels. ...
( a few aftermarket parts from NWSL help. )
Rust...... It's a good thing !
I am a few months younger than Mr. Beasley. I remember steam engines in revenue service from my grade school days, because they lasted about a decade longer here in Canada.
I have two Mountain class locos that navigate twenty two inch curves but they take up two much space on my passing tracks.
davidmurrayI have two Mountain class locos that navigate twenty two inch curves.
Every locomotive on my roster can negotiate a torturous S Curve made from 22" radius Kato Unitrack.
Some things are amazingly nimble right from the box like my Bachmann 2-8-8-4 and my IHC 2-10-2. These had no problem at all. My Sunset USRA Heavy Mountain can do it as well.
What can't... Rapido RDC-3 and Athearn 2-8-2.
MJ4562When you state that small locomotives sell for more that larger ones on the second hand market, that's an indicator that customers understand this and will pay more for a small locomotive. Heck, they already are in your example.
I should have stated my examples are all brass. Those are the locomotives I look at most.
A lot of larger brass, like challengers and big boys have dropped in price a lot since better plastic models have come out.
But, if you want to model a real railroad with the real locomotives, you need small steam models. Most of those have never been made in plastic.
I really wanted a NYC F-12 4-6-0 for my roster, but they are way out of my price range. I opted for a Lousiana And Arkansas 4-6-0 for 1/3 the price to fill that slot.
That is a great advantage of freelancing, I can find a less in-demand model from a less popular prototype. That is why the SGRR uses GM&O cabooses!
I found it.
From what I have been able to find, these were only available in "Sound Value" DCC models. That explains how I missed them. Were they ever offered in DC only?
I will keep this one in mind as a possibility.
Little Timmy Per the op's original post... There WERE ho 2 and 3 truck Shays. Model Die Casting ! I have built three, and have a few more in the stash. A lot of people say the MDC Shays are junk. No. You just have to pay attention, and work carefully, and they are little jewels. ... ( a few aftermarket parts from NWSL help. )
There also was a 3 truck Shay in the Bachmann Spectrum line.
KR Models is producing a 2 truck Shay.
Also people have turned a Bachmann 3 truck into a two truck, most of the parts needed are already there.
SeeYou190 hornblower Well, since I own three standard gauge Bachmann 2-6-0 Moguls in HO scale, Bachmann must have made them in standard gauge. I found it. From what I have been able to find, these were only available in "Sound Value" DCC models. That explains how I missed them. Were they ever offered in DC only? I will keep this one in mind as a possibility. -Kevin
AEP528 Little Timmy Per the op's original post... There WERE ho 2 and 3 truck Shays. Model Die Casting ! I have built three, and have a few more in the stash. A lot of people say the MDC Shays are junk. No. You just have to pay attention, and work carefully, and they are little jewels. ... ( a few aftermarket parts from NWSL help. ) There also was a 3 truck Shay in the Bachmann Spectrum line. KR Models is producing a 2 truck Shay.