basementdwellerThe whole experience left a bad taste for pre ordering.
I can understand this. However, if it were me, I would be contacting them and ask what the current storry is. And if you are not happy with the answer, I'd ask for a refund.
The specifics of pre-ordering and paying for the item depends on who you're going through - direct from the manufacturer, or through an online dealer or hobby shop.
For example I decided to pre-order a Walthers Proto engine that was due this fall (now due in January - I assume 2024) so I was sure to get one. The online dealer with the best price required you to submit your credit card info with the order, they charge your card once the item is in and then send it to you.
Because I wanted more control over when the payment happened, and how it happened, I ordered it through another online dealer for a few dollars more. Once the item comes in they send you an online bill. You pay for it, then they send it to you.
I prefer that, because if something happens between then and now (family crisis etc.), I'm not commited to consumating the sale. I can just tell them I don't want it, and they sell it to someone else. More importantly, since this DCC/sound engine is fairly expensive, once I get the bill I can pay for it using PayPal Credit and split up the cost over six months.
I have and still do, never had a problem with it, and I understand the reasoning behind it and have no problem with manufacturers doing what they can to make sure they get a return on investment.
KR Models Shay, Preordered it but when it kept getting delayed I cancelled and was refunded no problem.
Pre ordered the ScaleTrains SD39 and the Rapido 44 tonner, I want them so I order them :)
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Quite a number of years ago now I pre ordered a B&O I5D caboose from Spring Mills Depot, paid in full. I never got it.
I know they had several issues with factories in China and for a while they sent emails offering refunds or stay the course, I choose to stay the course. Haven't heard anything in a while and their website has not been updated in past year or so. I know they are a very small company.
The whole experience left a bad taste for pre ordering.
I felt weird about my most recent pre-order.
I have expressed my preference to Rapido and other manufacturers for them offering undecorated models.
When Rapido announced the 44 ton locomotive, they were kind and offered an undecorated version (maybe more than one version). However, I pre-ordered a pre-painted Santa Fe "zebra striped" model instead.
I use the Santa Fe "zebra stripes" as the foundation for one of the Stratton And Gillette paint schemes, and it makes painting them easier, much easier!
This is an unfinished example:
-Photograph by Kevin Parson
Painting that onto a 44 ton locomotive is not something I want to do. Now I am part of the problem.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I pre-order items that I know is difficult to get after release. Rapido buses, Atlas vehicles, 8-32 in Amtrak Pepsi can and Santa Fe. Next is Conrail and Southern Pacific are not but I'll take chances later on.
The only one that was cancelled was IM auto racks. The company terminated the order and decided to reorder the cars again (few months) with different paint and railroads. I decided not to time they arrived and never got a single one.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
PRR8259I have seen, and stupidly did not keep, a few brass engines with open frame motors that ran as smoothly as just about anything with a can motor can today.
This NKP 4-6-4 has an open frame motor and runs very smoothly.
I have a couple others that also run fine with open frame 30 year old motors.
thomas81z MidlandMike I have never pre-ordered. Do you have to pay all or part, at the time of pre-ordering? just A 2.00 FEE that s it
MidlandMike I have never pre-ordered. Do you have to pay all or part, at the time of pre-ordering?
I have never pre-ordered. Do you have to pay all or part, at the time of pre-ordering?
just A 2.00 FEE that s it
The last thing that I pre-ordered (a HD flat car just this past weekend) required no deposit whatsoever. In fact, of the few pre-orders that I've made, I don't recollect ever having to make a deposit for any of them - even for a locomotive.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I pre order clothes, entertainment, even food. Why would a plastic toy be any different?
I do not make pre-order purchases as I prefer to see the finished product before I buy. Doing otherwise is being a poor consumer, even in such a small cottage industry as model railroading.
Hornblower
I pre-order freight cars if it is a type of car that I know I want. I have also pre-ordered a brass caboose a few years ago as that particular caboose hadn't been produced in plastic before and it is unique to my prototype and a partialy owned railroad with another "family" road. I did make deposits on that as it was an rather expensive car and my budget wouldn't have tolerated the expense all at once. The shop held the funds for me. I did have to send a bit more as the estimated price was low but it wasn't too far off.
I did accidently order two of one type of car on preorder once. As the lettering was completely wrong anyway, it just gave me another car to reletter.
As already mentioned, for some cars (the brass caboose especially) only would be produced in a limited quantity. The brass caboose was only produced for what was ordered.
The NE-2's hauled coal trains from the Clearfield mining district until replaced by Mikado's and Mohawk's. Ironically, the District was over the hill from Altoona and was spaghetti bowl of NYC and PRR branches servig the various mines. Read Mike Bazilla's Branchlie Empires for the gory details
"The Pennsylvania and the New York Central railroads helped to develop central Pennsylvania as the largest source of bituminous coal for the nation. By the late 19th century, the two lines were among America's largest businesses and would soon become legendary archrivals. The PRR first arrived in the 1860s. Within a few years, it was sourcing as much as four million tons of coal annually from Centre County and the Moshannon Valley and would continue do so for a quarter-century. The New York Central, through its Beech Creek Railroad affiliate, invaded the region in the 1880s, first seeking a dependable, long-term source of coal to fuel its locomotives but soon aggressively attempting to break its rival's lock on transporting the area's immense wealth of mineral and forest products.
Beginning around 1900, the two companies transitioned from an era of growth and competition to a time when each tacitly recognized the other's domain and sought to achieve maximum operating efficiencies by adopting new technology such as air brakes, automatic couplers, all-steel cars, and diesel locomotives. Over the next few decades, each line began to face common problems in the form of competition from other forms of transportation and government regulation; in 1968 the two businesses merged.Branch Line Empires offers a thorough and captivating analysis of how a changing world turned competition into cooperation between two railroad industry titans."
Branch Line Empires: The Pennsylvania and the New York Central Railroads (Railroads Past and Present): Bezilla, Michael: 9780253029584: Amazon.com: Books
Beebe and Clegg's High Iron has a stirring picture of what must have been a rare event, one thundering down the four track mai line
The 0-6-0 is an Alco Models and the 0-10-0 and the 2-6-6-2 Mallet are NJCB. All three came with can motors. The 2-6-6-2 is exceptional and will run <1sMPH. I've converted all three to DCC and lighting.
The NYC 2-6-6-2 NE-2s also ran in eastern OH (Minerva & Coalburg), as far south as Rainelle, WV, and as west as Elkhark, Indiana.
With brass a lot depends upon the model builder. Certain builders at certain times produced absolutely phenomenal locos, as is Boo Rim Precision currently.
I have seen, and stupidly did not keep, a few brass engines with open frame motors that ran as smoothly as just about anything with a can motor can today. There have been some great Westside brass engines that just ran terrifically well even with the open frame motor because they had some very good gearboxes and were just exceptionally well made that they could even creep at very low speeds (SP 4-10-2).
NJ Custom Brass imported a wonderful running N&W Z1a 2-6-6-2. I've never run the NYC 2-6-6-2, and it's considered to be rare, but I'm sure it's a good runner also. There are newspaper photos of the NYC 2-6-6-2 running on the Pine Creek Branch south as far as Williamsport, PA. They were apparently common near the area where I grew up.
DrWFinally, a comment regarding the running performance of brass. There had been a comment earlier in this thread that brass engines need some attention/tuning-up before running satisfactorily. However, that does not apply to brass that was produce in the last 20 years or so.
It doesn't necessarily apply to all older brass either. A few years ago I picked up three used brass steamers from the late 70s (a 0-6-0, a 0-10-0, and a 2-6-6-2) and they ran terrific - even before I cleaned and re-lubed them. They rival my new locomotives as far as smoothness at low speeds. It really depends on model.
As a Santa Fe aficionado, we had in recent years some additions to our steam and diesel rosters that would not have been possible without pre-ordering. The manufacturer has to know how much interest will be attracted by a model of an engine that was specific to a certain railroad. Of course, the manufacturer will always produce a few more copies than they have on pre-order. If you are lucky, you can get those without pre-ordering, but you have to be aware that without pre-ordering these items would not exist.
In recent years, Santa Fe's best friend has been BLI. They looked for input from the Santa Fe Historical and Modeling Society and produced the EMD E1 (the Santa Fe was the only railroad owning an E1), the 4000 class Mikado, and the Blue Goose 3460 class Hudson. Rapido gave us the Santa Fe RDC Budd railcar rebuilt after a 1954 accident, and they will produce the unique PA-1/2 remotored with a 567C prime mover (if they get enough pre-orders). Athearn Genesis has produced some Santa Fe rarities as the freight F3s (the Santa Fe had only two sets) or GP7s with a steam generator.
Obviously, in brass pre-ordering is the only way to go. In some cases, production numbers are available. In 2004, Division Point imported 100 models of the Santa Fe 885 class Mikado, evenly distributed over four versions. Only one of them was oil-fired; thus, there are only 25 models of Santa Fe #898 in existence. Production numbers for the 2004 DP Santa fe class 900/1600 2-10-2s were a bit higher (less than 50 per version).
Finally, a comment regarding the running performance of brass. There had been a comment earlier in this thread that brass engines need some attention/tuning-up before running satisfactorily. However, that does not apply to brass that was produce in the last 20 years or so. I own a number of copies of the DP Santa Fe class 885/900/1600 2-8-2s and 2-10-2s, a Glacier Park class 3460 Hudson, and two DP Alco RSC-5s, and they all run like a charm.
For those that want transparency and communication from the manufacturer/importer, I have to point you to ScaleTrains.
I place a pre-order. They have my credit card on file--but it is secure and they can't even see the info. They tell you about when--what month--your preordered item(s) will arrive. When it changes, they update the website. They have been pretty good at hitting their dates, too. I can go into their website, enter my login and password, and every single order I've ever made as well as all my pre-orders are there and searchable. Even the actual shipping dates are there. I do not have to worry about "did they forget about me?" or "did they somehow lose my pre-order?" In fact recently they announced a new pledge: IF they screw up your pre-order they will give you $1000 in other merchandise to make it up to you. But don't take my word for it--go check out their website and see for yourself.
I understand many are uncomfortable with pre-orders, and I myself do not like committing to some product a year or more in advance, based upon sometimes only a drawing, and there have been times I've changed my mind, so that most certainly becomes an issue.
Yes, in many or most instances you can avoid pre-ordering and still find the item in stock somewhere after the fact, but I have actually missed out on items on some occasions, and could not/did not obtain them later, so it does happen.
Normally if I find out about an item I can send a text or make a phone call and still get it in a couple days, because my local store is very responsive, but not everyone has that kind of store or relationship with the store owner.
John
My pre-orders over the years have been with ModelTrainStuff,Tony's, Factory Direct, and Rapido. None of them required money up front, all were cancellable at any time. All delivered in time. Longest wait was for the Sunset 2-10-4, but close behind time-wise was BLI's amazing UP 9000 4-12-2. They don't communicate much except to let you know, via an emailed invoice, that the product is ready for shipping when they have the payment. Next comes the shipping notice with tracking. And that's it.
The big problem with my failed pre-orders is the complete lack of communication.
When Rapido cancelled the undecorated PA diesels, they contacted me directly and gave me options. That was wonderful.
All the others... it has been over a year at least on the pre-orders, and I do not know if they will eventually be made, cancelled, or anything else.
I will only be ordering pre-order from Rapido in the future. I don't care to deal with the rest of the options.
PRR8259There is one big problem with Tangent's system: locomotives whether steam or diesel cost a lot more than their admittedly gorgeous freight cars. They can have some freight cars in the warehouse for future sales, but if they tried to do that with locos it would destroy their liquidity.
We'll see, John. IIRC, Tangent has hinted in previous emails about the possibility of releasing a locomotive at some point in time. No one but Tangent knows when that will be though. Needless to say - should that come to fruition, both the prototype and the product marketing will be well-researched before bringing it to market.
But, you are correct that it's no guarantee if or how well a product will sell for the manufacturer. Even a pre-order could go south if the product doesn't live up to expectation.
I have pre-ordered just as a precaution to be sure I get what I want.
My personal experience has been that pre-orders have not really been needed, as the items I wanted seem to be in stock store inventory for several months after my order is delivered.
I am not aware of pre-order discounts, but may use this in the future.
- Douglas
There is one big problem with Tangent's system: locomotives whether steam or diesel cost a lot more than their admittedly gorgeous freight cars. They can have some freight cars in the warehouse for future sales, but if they tried to do that with locos it would destroy their liquidity.
The real purpose of preorders is to get rough build quantities. ANY extra inventory of locos sitting in a warehouse 3 weeks after delivery is basically dead inventory that becomes difficult for most to eventually sell. What sells and what doesnt is not science. Nobody really knows how well every single item will sell. They can predict some...
Bowser literally builds as few as 50 of some locomotive stock numbers, yet there can be other locos in the very same product run that they make 500 of.
Without any guage of preliminary sales interest, what do you think would happen to a Bowser or a Tangent if they guess wrong on a loco and end up with 450 extra of some locomotive item numbers sitting in a warehouse???
Those locos cost a lot more than a few extra 86' boxcars which will eventually sell.
AEP528 So I'm assuming everyone here who dislikes pre-order has never signed a contract for a service or product to be delivered later? Clearly there's a belief that signing a binding contract for a $50,000 home renovation is okay, but a non-binding pre-order for a $50 piece of model railroad equipment is the worst offense imaginable. Backorder, waitlisting, and layaway have existing for longer than ever the majority of users of this forum have been alive. Remember when it cost money to make long distance phone calls, and mail order with no idea of inventory quantities was all anyone had? Local shops couldn't then (and can't even now) guarantee manufacturers or whoesalers would have products in stock when an order was placed.
So I'm assuming everyone here who dislikes pre-order has never signed a contract for a service or product to be delivered later?
Clearly there's a belief that signing a binding contract for a $50,000 home renovation is okay, but a non-binding pre-order for a $50 piece of model railroad equipment is the worst offense imaginable.
Backorder, waitlisting, and layaway have existing for longer than ever the majority of users of this forum have been alive. Remember when it cost money to make long distance phone calls, and mail order with no idea of inventory quantities was all anyone had? Local shops couldn't then (and can't even now) guarantee manufacturers or whoesalers would have products in stock when an order was placed.
All true.
But having worked in this industry back in the day (late 70's/early 80's) there was a time when manufacturers, distributors and retailers saw inventory as money in the bank and held as much as they could afford to buffer the effects of batch production.
Not so today for lot of obvious and some valid reasons,
I pre-order now and then. But I am way past needing to build my roster, it is nearly full.
I do miss the days of well stocked model train stores.
Sheldon
tstage And then there is Tangent Models, who only announces their new product (generally monthly) when they actually have it in-hand - ready for sale on their website. No pre-orders. No forewarning what's coming down the pike. Just an email to customers that such-'n-such model(s) are now for sale and that they are taking orders. I like Tangent's business approach. It makes me look forward in anticipation to what their next product will be. When it is announced, Tangent gives a very nice history about each prototype and what years a particular model/paint scheme is appropriate for. And they put out a GREAT product. While not all Tangent releases fit my era or interest, I think they have done a very good job of including interesting (& needed) older prototypes along with modern rolling stock. They also offer kits of undecorated models for those you enjoy that part of the hobby. Tom
And then there is Tangent Models, who only announces their new product (generally monthly) when they actually have it in-hand - ready for sale on their website. No pre-orders. No forewarning what's coming down the pike. Just an email to customers that such-'n-such model(s) are now for sale and that they are taking orders.
I like Tangent's business approach. It makes me look forward in anticipation to what their next product will be. When it is announced, Tangent gives a very nice history about each prototype and what years a particular model/paint scheme is appropriate for. And they put out a GREAT product.
While not all Tangent releases fit my era or interest, I think they have done a very good job of including interesting (& needed) older prototypes along with modern rolling stock. They also offer kits of undecorated models for those you enjoy that part of the hobby.
That's the way it should be done.
PMR
I don't buy much anymore, but here are pre-orders that worked out well:
Rapido X-31 boxcars
Rapido Railcrew uncouplers
That is it, just two. There have been five that did not work out.
I am not a fan of pre-orders. If I could get what I order, I would be happier.
NO reputable dealer will accept money up front until they actually have an item in stock (at which point some will accept a layaway). The manufacturers generally DO NOT require any deposit, unless you are actually ordering a brass model, and those are very rare anymore.
Especially after Canadian Model Trains (Tom Tomblin) went out of business and stole pre-order money from many customers (who had reserved brass models and made deposits with Canadian Model Trains) most other dealers will not require a deposit. In fact it is considered unethical to do so as most plastic or diecast manufacturers never request any deposit from the dealer.
For one--and I've been critical of ScaleTrains in the past--but their policy is that you can make a pre-order directly with them and you actually CAN cancel it. They realize that circumstances change and sometimes people are unable to pick up a given item or two. As long as you don't make a habit of doing that often--cancelling--there is no problem. Their pre-orders are to help them figure out correct production quantities and are non-binding. All this is clearly stated on their website. The demand for ScaleTrains items is so strong that many of them are sold out within a couple weeks. Few models linger.
Some of the largest mail order dealers also clearly state on their websites that pre-orders are non-binding, but are used to help them plan order quantities. Obviously they do not prefer that you cancel very much stuff, but places such as but not limited to Lombard Hobby in Chicago will cancel pre-orders for you, I think no questions asked.
The manufacturers run a line of credit with banks to cover the production costs up to the point of getting models into the country and through customs. The interest payments are factored into the pricing already, so for those and many other reasons, cash deposits are NOT taken.