Hello everyone,Its been a while since I have been here. This last Friday March 17th on St. Patricks day, BLI announced on their Facebook social media they would be bringing back their "Stealth" series which is DC or DCC ready. I am not sure if it was DCC ready as I was not familer with BLI products when they came out. They said the full announcment with further details and what models will be offered in this configuration, will be revealed a week from then which will be this friday the 23rd of March. They even showed two versions of the logo they wished to use and ask which is better. Most chose the top logo with the fading look.
This is a good sign BLI is listening to its customers and is making a turnaround. They did ask in a recent survey if customers would prefer to buy a non-decoder locomotives as a way of saving money, and that was a resounding yes, due to BLIs decoders not being reliable and sound accurate. I look forward to what has to come from BLI as they are improving. However they have to improve their own deocders or switch to a better one, and improve their smoke units that at times melt the plastic boilers on locomotives they are installed on.
I would be glad if BLI did offer a non-decoder locomotive series again. ALL of my recent Paragon 4 locomotives have had one problem or another related to wiring and/or the decoder.
Most recently, I replaced the P4 decoder and removed the smoke maker on their Pennsylvania E6 Atlantic.
BLI_P4_E6_boiler-open by Edmund, on Flickr
In my estimation, it seems that BLI has insisted on including that current-hog, chuffing, smoke generator. This is also possibly a reason they still insist on the reed switch/flywheel magnet to tell the chuff and synchronised smoke blower when to make the "puff" of smoke.
The next engine I have a possibility of purchasing is the NYC Commodore Vanderbilt Hudson. I know I'll be removing that decoder, smoke unit and gutting the wiring as well. One disappointing choice BLI has made with their recent locos is using a common cathode arrangement for the lighting. This goes against a DCC general practice and requires anyone installing a non-BLI decoder to rewire the LEDs. Perhaps if they choose a 21 pin socket in the planned Stealth series this won't be a problem.
PRR_L1-BLI-guts by Edmund, on Flickr
Everything in the foreground here gets scrapped.
BLI_K4_SL_Parts by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
gmpullman I would be glad if BLI did offer a non-decoder locomotive series again. ALL of my recent Paragon 4 locomotives have had one problem or another related to wiring and/or the decoder.
I don't want to get too crusty on this thread... but...
I wonder if they would sell me a Stealth 2-6-6-4 for the same price they "paid" me for the one they took from me?
It would seem fair.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
That is one sharp looking Atlantic!
philo426 That is one sharp looking Atlantic!
I agree! Looks even better when the boiler is sitting on its wheels...
PRR_E6-curve by Edmund, on Flickr
PRR_E6-tower-1 by Edmund, on Flickr
Cheers, Ed
No doubt!
Like General Longstreet said to British Colonal Aurthur Fremantle comparing the Revolution to the War between the States "We are just like you British, better to loose the war than admit to the mistake".
Broadway has likely lost millions by thumbing their nose at DC modelers and those DCC modelers who would rather have the decoder of their choice.
Especially considering by all accounts, and what I see on Facebook, DCC is still only used by about 60%-65% of HO and N scale modelers, even after all this tine.
Not as bad but similar to Mike Wolf arrogance when MTH thought they could redefine HO.
The availability of Stealth locos would change my perspective on BLI, in fact two of the seven BLI locos I have are PCM Stealth Reading T1's.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Like General Longstreet said to British Colonal Aurthur Fremantle comparing the Revolution to the War between the States "We are just like you British, better to loose the war than admit to the mistake". Broadway has likely lost millions by thumbing their nose at DC modelers and those DCC modelers who would rather have the decoder of their choice. Especially considering by all accounts, and what I see on Facebook, DCC is still only used by about 60%-65% of HO and N scale modelers, even after all this tine. Not as bad but similar to Mike Wolf arrogance when MTH thought they could redefine HO. The availability of Stealth locos would change my perspective on BLI, in fact two of the seven BLI locos I have are PCM Stealth Reading T1's. Sheldon
Interesting histoyr quote. I never knew that before. I was not too interested in MTH stuff and by the time I got interested in the hobby MTH was in its last HO scale years. About Mike Wolfs arrogance, how did MTH think they could redfine HO scale? I would love to hear the story.They have probally lost thousands and millions due to the various quality control issues that have been going on.BLI posted which logo they chose and the livestream discussing it will be this friday. I will post what happens.
Please do let us know. Not all of us here have Facebook.
Mike
Water Level Route Please do let us know. Not all of us here have Facebook.
Most manufacturers DCC Ready products have the 21 pin motherboard so the modeler can install the DCC decoder of their choice.
BLI just now catching up but making it sound like its something new?
- Douglas
I had a post but stood corrected upon further research.
Engi1487Interesting history quote. I never knew that before. I was not too interested in MTH stuff and by the time I got interested in the hobby MTH was in its last HO scale years. About Mike Wolfs arrogance, how did MTH think they could redfine HO scale? I would love to hear the story. They have probally lost thousands and millions due to the various quality control issues that have been going on. BLI posted which logo they chose and the livestream discussing it will be this friday. I will post what happens.
OK, I have told this story before, so here is the short version - which will still be long. For all of you under 40, before the late 1980's HO model trains was still a craftsman hobby if you were truely intersted in any sense of prototype accuracy, reasonable detail, and good running qualities.
RTR model trains before that were mostly, and generally, of a toy train/train set nature. Even the ones that ran well enough were generic and poorly detailed.
That started to change in the late 80's. For lots of back ground info, search my previous posts, you may find more details.
But, short version - First Bachmann, Life Like and Atlas began making better quality and better detailed RTR locomotives, Atlas Yellow Box, Proto2000 and Spectrum lines.
Others followed suit, and with these new products came a renewed interest in model trains by people who lacked time and/or skills to build trains from kits.
By the mid 90's this revolution in HO models was in full swing, again bringing more and more people into the hobby who were not inclined to build kits.
At the same time LIONEL (where BLI Bob Grubba worked) and MTH (Mike Wolf) were seeing a big revival of interest in better quality O gauge trains.
In all scales these advancements were largely fueled by recent advancements in manufacturing (CNC machines making dies for injection molding less expensive) that both lowered costs and improved detail and quality.
This became a self fullfilling prophecy - better trains attracted more "non craftsman" modelers, which drove the demand for more of these products.
And to be fair, a good number of craftsman modelers saw these products as an opportunity to do the hobby on a larger scale and "save" their skills for their most important projects.
Bob Grubba left LIONEL and founded BLI - from the start they made it clear that their goal was high end, DCC with sound, prototype correct models. Despite the fact that at the time, estimates suggest less than a third of modelers were using DCC.
These new models also created third class of customer - not previously common in HO - Collectors with no layouts, or just small "test track" layouts.
One of the primary reasons HO is the dominant scale is long term interchangeablity - Athearn cars run on Atlas track pulled by Mantua locmotives, with Kadee couplers made to fit every brand, etc, etc.
BLI did their best to make their products "fit in" within the scope of their goals - to appeal to the upper tier of all three groups of customers.
Mike Wolf, after doing well with O gauge, decides to take a run at HO. But he only understands the O gauge modeler mentality - collectors of RTR trains that generally run with propriatary control systems - he does the same thing - installed his unique control system in his HO trains with only marginal compatiblity with DCC or established DC standards.
Somehow expecting the HO market to abandon 70 years of interchange standards and run to his products and his control system - it did not work out that way and MTH back pedaled and gradually made their product more compatible with existing DCC standards - they never really made them DC compatible or friendly.
We see were MTH HO is now.........
I'm not anti DCC, I have hundreds of hours of operating time on DCC layouts.
It just does not meet my personal needs and goals.
Occasionally, now that I am on facebook for my other hobby, GRAVELY garden tractors, I follow a few HO groups. There are a lot of people with nice "beginner" or "intermediate" layouts still using DC - which supports every informal survey we have ever taken on this forum. DCC useage is likely at about 60% of all actively building and purchasing modelers.
Athearn, Bowser, Rapido, Walthers, Bachmann and others are showing no signs of eliminating DC/DCC ready models from their product offerings.
YET, for all these years , except for a brief time with a few offerings, BLI has said by their actions, that they are not interested in the DC market, or the more advanced DCC market were modelers may prefer to install the decoder of their choice.
I have 145 "powered units" (not sure I want to call all the B units locomotives), only 7 of them are BLI, only five of those came with decoders.
Those five don't have decoders anymore - in fact those five all have Bachmann tenders.
Before you ask why I removed the decoders, dual mode decoders will not work with Full Voltage Pulse Width Modulated DC throttles like I use.
I have no interest in onboard sound.
So Mike Wolf thought he could turn HO in to highrail modeling/collecting.
Bob Grubba took a similar but softer/friendly approach to that as well.
But here we are, BLI has a list of decoder quality issues and a few mechanical issues. They have disapointed some percentage of their core market, and ignored the similar sized market of us lessor mortals not interested in DCC or sound.
I guess they are rethinking that position while they try to fix their problems.....
I would rather not pay $100 extra for a locomotive that I am then going to take apart to remove the electronics I don't want, that don't work with my existing equipment.
That's why I only have seven of their locos - got good deals on all of them - only way I buy their stuff.
I have 40 Bachmann locos - I have had fewer problems with them than with the seven BLI locos - that's a separate story.......
BLI has made other marketing mistakes as well - at least in my opinion. I will save those thoughts for now.
They may think that DC modelers don't spend as much money on the hobby - they have not been in my basement.....
gmpullman philo426 That is one sharp looking Atlantic! I agree! Looks even better when the boiler is sitting on its wheels... PRR_E6-curve by Edmund, on Flickr PRR_E6-tower-1 by Edmund, on Flickr Cheers, Ed
Shame the running boards are so thick. Still, now that theyre making stealth series I might buy one and replace the running boards. Otherwise they look fantastic.
charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
ATLANTIC CENTRALI would rather not pay $100 extra for a locomotive that I am then going to take apart to remove the electronics I don't want, that don't work with my existing equipment.
Conversly, the Bachmann locos I own have generally been pleasing in all aspects except pulling power. That's relatively easily fixed with added weight and bullfrog snot. While their SoundValue line decoders lack some of the adjustment capabilities of a good decoder, they have never been problematic. Can't say the same for the BLI's.
Trainman440 gmpullman philo426 That is one sharp looking Atlantic! I agree! Looks even better when the boiler is sitting on its wheels... PRR_E6-curve by Edmund, on Flickr PRR_E6-tower-1 by Edmund, on Flickr Cheers, Ed Shame the running boards are so thick. Still, now that theyre making stealth series I might buy one and replace the running boards. Otherwise they look fantastic. charles
Thick running boards and sometimes oversized bulky detail is a hallmark of many BLI and MTH steam locos - like LIONEL of old, it needs to be "handling friendly".
I hope one of them is the P5a electric! The lack of a Stealth series option is literally the only reason why I haven't gotten one.
_________________________________________________________________
Water Level Route ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would rather not pay $100 extra for a locomotive that I am then going to take apart to remove the electronics I don't want, that don't work with my existing equipment. Sheldon, I run a DCC layout and couldn't agree more with your whole post. I have, I think, 8 BLI locos. Four were bought at the same time and were my first. Other than the decoders, I have been happy with them. Two more were bought at a good price. Other than the decoders, I have been happy with them. One was bought second hand and someone else replaced the decoder. I'm happier with that one than I am the six that came with the factory decoder. The last one, the one I like the most, was one of the ones BLI offered with no decoder. I installed my decoder of choice and have been very pleased. Conversly, the Bachmann locos I own have generally been pleasing in all aspects except pulling power. That's relatively easily fixed with added weight and bullfrog snot. While their SoundValue line decoders lack some of the adjustment capabilities of a good decoder, they have never been problematic. Can't say the same for the BLI's.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would rather not pay $100 extra for a locomotive that I am then going to take apart to remove the electronics I don't want, that don't work with my existing equipment.
Sheldon, I run a DCC layout and couldn't agree more with your whole post. I have, I think, 8 BLI locos. Four were bought at the same time and were my first. Other than the decoders, I have been happy with them. Two more were bought at a good price. Other than the decoders, I have been happy with them. One was bought second hand and someone else replaced the decoder. I'm happier with that one than I am the six that came with the factory decoder. The last one, the one I like the most, was one of the ones BLI offered with no decoder. I installed my decoder of choice and have been very pleased.
Some of the Bachmann locos are a little light, which ones do you have? Many of the Bachmann locos are smaller Prototypes as well, only so much you can do. I have multiply copies of the USRA 4-8-2, USRA 2-10-2, and the 2-6-6-2. They pull pretty well. I have 2-8-4's I converted into freelance heavy Mikados, they were light, but 5 oz of lead fixedctgem right up. The N&W J is light, needs a lot of weight. The decapod and 10 wheeler just are what they are, small.
I tried one BLI engine and will never buy another. Every other brand of engine runs fine on my layout but not the BLI one (there was a slight manufacturing mistake on the NW2's). I could have fixed it but why would I and would have owned a paperweight if I filed it wrong and then there is the problem with the metal particals too. Also the handrails looked chunky to me.
rrebell I tried one BLI engine and will never buy another. Every other brand of engine runs fine on my layout but not the BLI one (there was a slight manufacturing mistake on the NW2's). I could have fixed it but why would I and would have owned a paperweight if I filed it wrong and then there is the problem with the metal particals too. Also the handrails looked chunky to me.
Most BLI diesels have left me cold detail wise, I don't own any.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThey may think that DC modelers don't spend as much money on the hobby - they have not been in my basement.....
Russell
ATLANTIC CENTRALThese new models also created third class of customer - not previously common in HO - Collectors with no layouts, or just small "test track" layouts.
I come from this group but not out of choice. I have no room for a giant layout where I live especially since I live with roommates and the housing market is atrocious and getting worse. That is something for another day and another forum. My only outlets are to collect or to run trains. To do this I had to join a modular rail club where we run at train shows because again real estate is so expensive and the members are so spread out that a permanent fixed location is simply out of the question. The days of large basement empires are over unless you are making six figures or you live far out in the countryside but who knows how long that will last too.
That and I remember a post said about how you did not enjoy having to hunt down models. That is why I am forced to collect and buy what I can when I can especially for steam since manufacturers only do certain runs for a year then they may wait 5, 20, or never for them to return at a higher price. I never pay MSRP or even street pricing I do all my buying from train shows, auction houses, train stores when I can (the county I live in just had the last two left go belly up) so that forces me to go to eBay when train shows aren't around to find models I want that aren't always available.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWe see were MTH HO is now.........
To be fair the only reason it is gone is because Mike Wolf decided to retire. If he was still around it would still be going strong despite DCS and ScaleTrains would not have bought the tooling to revamp it with ESU. Later models were more DCC friendly and less of a hassle to program compared to their first generation of models. What can I say I am a glutton for punishment and enjoyed their early models getting them to work. I don't consist locos unless they come from the factory as a pair and run them as separate units so interchangeability/consisting is not a priority to me. I wanted O Scale features in a HO format due to cost, size, space, and the unrealistic third rail which drove me away from O. Grubba and Wolf tapped into that market that represented me so consider me guilty as charged.
What I am saying is the HO Scale tent is big and there is plenty of room in it for everyone. The market is correcting itself and BLI is finally listening. Will I buy a Stealth model? Probably not but I am not discouraging anyone from doing so.
scott7891 ATLANTIC CENTRAL These new models also created third class of customer - not previously common in HO - Collectors with no layouts, or just small "test track" layouts. I come from this group but not out of choice. I have no room for a giant layout where I live especially since I live with roommates and the housing market is atrocious and getting worse. That is something for another day and another forum. My only outlets are to collect or to run trains. To do this I had to join a modular rail club where we run at train shows because again real estate is so expensive and the members are so spread out that a permanent fixed location is simply out of the question. The days of large basement empires are over unless you are making six figures or you live far out in the countryside but who knows how long that will last too. That and I remember a post said about how you did not enjoy having to hunt down models. That is why I am forced to collect and buy what I can when I can especially for steam since manufacturers only do certain runs for a year then they may wait 5, 20, or never for them to return at a higher price. I never pay MSRP or even street pricing I do all my buying from train shows, auction houses, train stores when I can (the county I live in just had the last two left go belly up) so that forces me to go to eBay when train shows aren't around to find models I want that aren't always available. ATLANTIC CENTRAL We see were MTH HO is now......... To be fair the only reason it is gone is because Mike Wolf decided to retire. If he was still around it would still be going strong despite DCS and ScaleTrains would not have bought the tooling to revamp it with ESU. Later models were more DCC friendly and less of a hassle to program compared to their first generation of models. What can I say I am a glutton for punishment and enjoyed their early models getting them to work. I don't consist locos unless they come from the factory as a pair and run them as separate units so interchangeability/consisting is not a priority to me. I wanted O Scale features in a HO format due to cost, size, space, and the unrealistic third rail which drove me away from O. Grubba and Wolf tapped into that market that represented me so consider me guilty as charged. What I am saying is the HO Scale tent is big and there is plenty of room in it for everyone. The market is correcting itself and BLI is finally listening. Will I buy a Stealth model? Probably not but I am not discouraging anyone from doing so.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL These new models also created third class of customer - not previously common in HO - Collectors with no layouts, or just small "test track" layouts.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL We see were MTH HO is now.........
And I have always said it's a big tent.
And I have no grudge against collectors, they help drive the market that has provided me with some of the models I wanted.
And I am going to say this, I have no idea where you live, how old you are, what your situation is, what you do, or plan to do for a living, or what kind of housing you live in or would hope to live in.
But where I live you can buy nice ranchers or colonials with 1500 to 2500 sq ft basements all day long for $350,000 to $500,000
And while we are in a rural area, we are not that far out in the countryside. I can be in downtown Baltimore in 40 minutes and downtown Phily in 50 minutes. That is plenty close enough to all that chaos for my taste - your milage may vary.
I agree, you have to grab the stuff when you see it, no question. It is one of the things that I think has hurt the hobby, but there is no practical fix.
My point is not about the customers - my point is about how the perspective of these two owners drives the design of the products they make/made and how some of those choices go against the historical trends in the HO and N scale hobbies.
YES, MTH ultimately fixed the DCC issues, but they never fixed the DC issues - yet it is likely that 40% of the people currently active in this hobby are still running DC.
Both of these companies clearly said to me "we don't want your money". So one has never gotten a penny, and the other only a very small percentage of my hobby budget.
And, I will take the finer detail of a Spectrum or Proto2000 model over most of what MTH or Broadway have produced nearly any day.
I'm not an 8 year old, I can handle a delicate model without breaking it.
I have a list of reasons for not liking sound and not needing DCC, yet I encourage new people to go DCC.
And here is a another pet peeve MTH and BLI are guilty of making worse.
Beating each other up making models of the same locos. How many different choices of Big Boys do we need? I don't even own one (I don't model the UP).
Find yourself a copy of a Walthers catalog from 1975 or 1985, and compare the products offered by Athearn to the products offered by Model Die Casting (Roundhouse) and tell how much overlap there was between the two lines. I will tell you, you could count the overlaping offerings on your fingers.
The owners of those two companies were friends, they helped each other and grew the hobby. Mike Wolf was exactly the opposite kind of person.
Look at early Spectrum and Proto2000 offerings - same story - the two people making the marketing choices were friends - they helped each other and grew the hobby.
As opposed to being cut throat........
Bachmann tried for years to stay away from models that were offered by lots of other companies, or to appeal to a different price point - they finally just said why should we do that, we are the big boy on the block in terms of factory resources, we will do what we want.
Athearn still does not go after everything others come out with, and they remain a leader.
There are lots of models that have never been made other than in brass that would sell. Bachmann proved that selling tens of thousands of USRA 4-8-2's, 2-10-2's, 2-6-6-2's, etc, etc, with nice road specific details back 10-15 years ago.
While BLI was busy only making big, monster, high profile, "popular" locomotives only available with sound and DCC.
And for a decade BLI "promised" a B&O P7 Pacific - and what we got was a generic Pacific with the wrong sized drivers and less proto correct details than a Bachmann sound and value loco.
And back to the subject of home layouts - 1500 sq ft basement empires are alive and well here in the Mid Atlantic. Not sure why you think the sky is falling....
ATLANTIC CENTRALSome of the Bachmann locos are a little light, which ones do you have?
Water Level Route ATLANTIC CENTRAL Some of the Bachmann locos are a little light, which ones do you have? I have the light 4-8-2, 2-8-2, and 2-8-0's. Oh, and a 2-6-0, but I'm not counting that one. It was only intended as a temporary stand in and since been retired from regular use. Besides, it's a really little engine. One shouldn't expect much with that. Admittedly part of my issue is I have a rather challenging grade on my mainline that I knew could be problematic, but only the Bachmann steamers have struggled on it. My BLI and Proto steamers can handle it, as can all makes of diesels (no surprise there). In all fairness to Bachmann, those steamers run well, look good, and have not been my poorest pullers. That award belongs to the Trix 2-8-2 I have. Straight out of the box it couldn't start a string of 8 cars plus a caboose on straight and level track without spinning the drivers. (I was starting gently too)
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Some of the Bachmann locos are a little light, which ones do you have?
I have the light 4-8-2, 2-8-2, and 2-8-0's. Oh, and a 2-6-0, but I'm not counting that one. It was only intended as a temporary stand in and since been retired from regular use. Besides, it's a really little engine. One shouldn't expect much with that. Admittedly part of my issue is I have a rather challenging grade on my mainline that I knew could be problematic, but only the Bachmann steamers have struggled on it. My BLI and Proto steamers can handle it, as can all makes of diesels (no surprise there). In all fairness to Bachmann, those steamers run well, look good, and have not been my poorest pullers. That award belongs to the Trix 2-8-2 I have. Straight out of the box it couldn't start a string of 8 cars plus a caboose on straight and level track without spinning the drivers. (I was starting gently too)
OK, that explains it.
The Heavy 4-8-2 and 2-10-2 with larger die cast boilers are much better pullers, and even with a plastic boiler, the 2-6-6-2 is loaded with weight in stock form.
In fact I double head my 2-6-6-2's with Proto 2-8-8-2's (which I have converted to 2-8-8-0's) and both locos pull about the same.
The 2-8-4 is light, but has plenty of room for more weight.
Here is tip for the 2-8-0, remove the boiler and fill the domes with lead. Then remove the spring on the pilot truck. I have never had tracking issues without the spring and they really do pull better without it.
And I weight all my tenders with an extra oz or two for better electrical pickup and for better backing up. And that does not really effect pulling power, it is less than the weight of one car.
Trix Mikados and Genesis Mikados, both terrible pullers. I fixed one Genesis Mikado by adding a lot of weight very creatitively - too much work to ever do again.
My grades are all about 2%.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL scott7891 ATLANTIC CENTRAL These new models also created third class of customer - not previously common in HO - Collectors with no layouts, or just small "test track" layouts. I come from this group but not out of choice. I have no room for a giant layout where I live especially since I live with roommates and the housing market is atrocious and getting worse. That is something for another day and another forum. My only outlets are to collect or to run trains. To do this I had to join a modular rail club where we run at train shows because again real estate is so expensive and the members are so spread out that a permanent fixed location is simply out of the question. The days of large basement empires are over unless you are making six figures or you live far out in the countryside but who knows how long that will last too. That and I remember a post said about how you did not enjoy having to hunt down models. That is why I am forced to collect and buy what I can when I can especially for steam since manufacturers only do certain runs for a year then they may wait 5, 20, or never for them to return at a higher price. I never pay MSRP or even street pricing I do all my buying from train shows, auction houses, train stores when I can (the county I live in just had the last two left go belly up) so that forces me to go to eBay when train shows aren't around to find models I want that aren't always available. ATLANTIC CENTRAL We see were MTH HO is now......... To be fair the only reason it is gone is because Mike Wolf decided to retire. If he was still around it would still be going strong despite DCS and ScaleTrains would not have bought the tooling to revamp it with ESU. Later models were more DCC friendly and less of a hassle to program compared to their first generation of models. What can I say I am a glutton for punishment and enjoyed their early models getting them to work. I don't consist locos unless they come from the factory as a pair and run them as separate units so interchangeability/consisting is not a priority to me. I wanted O Scale features in a HO format due to cost, size, space, and the unrealistic third rail which drove me away from O. Grubba and Wolf tapped into that market that represented me so consider me guilty as charged. What I am saying is the HO Scale tent is big and there is plenty of room in it for everyone. The market is correcting itself and BLI is finally listening. Will I buy a Stealth model? Probably not but I am not discouraging anyone from doing so. And I have always said it's a big tent. And I have no grudge against collectors, they help drive the market that has provided me with some of the models I wanted. And I am going to say this, I have no idea where you live, how old you are, what your situation is, what you do, or plan to do for a living, or what kind of housing you live in or would hope to live in. But where I live you can buy nice ranchers or colonials with 1500 to 2500 sq ft basements all day long for $350,000 to $500,000 And while we are in a rural area, we are not that far out in the countryside. I can be in downtown Baltimore in 40 minutes and downtown Phily in 50 minutes. That is plenty close enough to all that chaos for my taste - your milage may vary. I agree, you have to grab the stuff when you see it, no question. It is one of the things that I think has hurt the hobby, but there is no practical fix. My point is not about the customers - my point is about how the perspective of these two owners drives the design of the products they make/made and how some of those choices go against the historical trends in the HO and N scale hobbies. YES, MTH ultimately fixed the DCC issues, but they never fixed the DC issues - yet it is likely that 40% of the people currently active in this hobby are still running DC. Both of these companies clearly said to me "we don't want your money". So one has never gotten a penny, and the other only a very small percentage of my hobby budget. And, I will take the finer detail of a Spectrum or Proto2000 model over most of what MTH or Broadway have produced nearly any day. I'm not an 8 year old, I can handle a delicate model without breaking it. I have a list of reasons for not liking sound and not needing DCC, yet I encourage new people to go DCC. And here is a another pet peeve MTH and BLI are guilty of making worse. Beating each other up making models of the same locos. How many different choices of Big Boys do we need? I don't even own one (I don't model the UP). Find yourself a copy of a Walthers catalog from 1975 or 1985, and compare the products offered by Athearn to the products offered by Model Die Casting (Roundhouse) and tell how much overlap there was between the two lines. I will tell you, you could count the overlaping offerings on your fingers. The owners of those two companies were friends, they helped each other and grew the hobby. Mike Wolf was exactly the opposite kind of person. Look at early Spectrum and Proto2000 offerings - same story - the two people making the marketing choices were friends - they helped each other and grew the hobby. As opposed to being cut throat........ Bachmann tried for years to stay away from models that were offered by lots of other companies, or to appeal to a different price point - they finally just said why should we do that, we are the big boy on the block in terms of factory resources, we will do what we want. Athearn still does not go after everything others come out with, and they remain a leader. There are lots of models that have never been made other than in brass that would sell. Bachmann proved that selling tens of thousands of USRA 4-8-2's, 2-10-2's, 2-6-6-2's, etc, etc, with nice road specific details back 10-15 years ago. While BLI was busy only making big, monster, high profile, "popular" locomotives only available with sound and DCC. And for a decade BLI "promised" a B&O P7 Pacific - and what we got was a generic Pacific with the wrong sized drivers and less proto correct details than a Bachmann sound and value loco. And back to the subject of home layouts - 1500 sq ft basement empires are alive and well here in the Mid Atlantic. Not sure why you think the sky is falling.... Sheldon
I agree with everything you said except about the state of the housing market but again that is for another discussion. I have no problem with Bachmann as it comes in right behind BLI in my collection at 19 specimens and I am waiting for their new Hudson and BL2 diesel to come out in HO.
scott7891 ATLANTIC CENTRAL These new models also created third class of customer - not previously common in HO - Collectors with no layouts, or just small "test track" layouts. I come from this group but not out of choice.
I come from this group but not out of choice.
Those groups have existed for a long time, long before BLI or MTH. It is why we have had model railroad clubs for years. People that either don't have the ability/space or desire to have their own layouts at home. I too belong to this "third class" (interesting choice of words) of customer once moving to the land of no basements (Florida). I belong to a club, and it has its pluses and minuses over having a layout at home.
BTW, don't bother bringing the steath engines to the club I belong to, or any I have visited in the last 10 years. DCC only.
An "expensive model collector"
As a side note on housing, it runs the gauntlet depending on where you want to live, where I am it is very very expencive.
n012944 scott7891 ATLANTIC CENTRAL These new models also created third class of customer - not previously common in HO - Collectors with no layouts, or just small "test track" layouts. I come from this group but not out of choice. Those groups have existed for a long time, long before BLI or MTH. It is why we have had model railroad clubs for years. People that either don't have the ability/space or desire to have their own layouts at home. I too belong to this "third class" (interesting choice of words) of customer once moving to the land of no basements (Florida). I belong to a club, and it has its pluses and minuses over having a layout at home. BTW, don't bother bringing the steath engines to the club I belong to, or any I have visited in the last 10 years. DCC only.
Having been around this hobby for 55 years, I can tell you that as a percentage, collectors in the smaller scales were a very small percentage until the last 25 years or so. Now they are a significant market segment.
Unlike O and S which had significant collector followings going way back.
Third only in that sense, being the newest group of the three to represent a significant percentage of the market.
I expect new people to go DCC, I expect clubs to be DCC, but that does not change the actual numbers still using DC and the potential market for the manufacturers.
I'm not only defending DC here, I am defending DCC users who would rather install their decoder of choice, and those DCC users not interested in sound.
For me personally, your club, or any club, is of no concern, I stopped dragging my equipment to clubs four decades ago.
Yes, you might well find DC users to be more of the lone wolf type, they might also be more of the group still building locomotives and rolling stock, but they are out there - just not at your club.
It's a big tent.
I take full advantage of modern high quality RTR, I have my share, yet I still build rolling stock, kitbash locomotives, etc.
And I have plenty of room at home for my layout. Best irony there, I sold the really big fancy house that was a lot to care for, bought an easy to care for brick rancher for retirement, and my layout space went from 1000 sq ft to 1500 sq ft.
Back to work now, need to buy a couple cases of flex track.