The house is listed, we're leaving Massachusetts and going to Tennessee. The houses we're looking at there all have "bonus" rooms. Translate that to "train room!'
It's just too expensive here in Mass, and our new governor wants to ban gas fired furnaces, stoves and hot water heaters, and replace them with electric appliances.
At a time when the grid is already overloaded!
DonRicardo, I live in NYC and yesterday's news was the first time I heard about what you are talking about. The news mentioned that gas furnaces and hot water heaters were not a problem because they were vented to the outside, but a lot of gas stoves were not. Supposedly this may be a contributing cause of asthma. In my 71 years of living with said appliances, nobody in my household suffers from asthma. I would hope there is no knee-jerk reactions, but we'll just have to wait and see.
Eric
DonRicardo The houses we're looking at there all have "bonus" rooms. Translate that to "train room!'
Some of the upper-mid-level houses in new high density communities have this "bonus room" in the floor plans. I have seen a couple that would be good train rooms.
Personally, I could never live in one of those communities, with their 1/10 acre lots and driveways too short for a pickup truck.
However, they sure seem to be what a lot of buyers are wanting. They can't build them fast enough.
That is where one of my friends lives near Tampa. He has a big gaming room, but he can here his neighbors wash their dishes.
I was looking at a house in that neighborhood. It had a good bonus (train) room. I decided against the house, and a friend of mine bought it. $400,000.00 plus $400.00/month in HOA to live there. Three years later and every house in the neighborhood is falling apart.
But, he has no kids in the neighborhood, a great man-cave, and a security guard at the entrance.
I am glad I decided against it.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
In my whole 65 years I have never lived in a "planned" cookie cutter development with an hoa or any rules above the county codes.
Nor would I want to.
Natural gas and propane cooking stoves, and even vent free space heaters for supplemental heat, are proven safe with proper makeup air, or in typical building infiltration rates.
I would never want to live in a totally air tight bubble, that is bad for your health.
Independent studies show that modern, high efficiency gas or oil heating systems have smaller carbon footprints than similar electric based systems where the electric is generated with fossil fuels, even natural gas.
So it is all political BS.
I will take my gas or oil fired hydronic (hot water baseboard) heat over any system out there.
Best wishes in your move to a place were they understand freedom.
Happy to be living with no curbs, sidewalks, or busy bodies, where the neighbors are close enough to wave, and far enough away to not be heard.
Sheldon
Yesterday a report came out naming Cape Coral, Florida as the most overpriced city in the country when it comes to rental property prices.
The rental rates here are crazy, and there is a serious housing shortage.
People just keep moving here, it seems like mostly from the Northeast and Canada now. Immigrants from these areas used to move to the East Coast, and we would get the Midwesterners. Now the immigrants from Michigan and Ohio are moving to the center of the state (Villages, Howie In The Hills, On Top Of The World) and New Yorkers/Bostonites are coming to the Gulf Coast.
Folks... there are Hurricanes here! It is Summer 11 months out of the year, rains 6 months out of the year, everyone speaks Spanish, and we do not have gas stoves. The insects are worse than you can imagine.
Yet... they just keep coming and then they complain about everything listed above.
Happy and contented ex-FL Ohioan to stay put in my paradise, where housing and utility costs are reasonable and I can freely use my gas stove and gas furnace to cook and heat my home. Nothing worse than legislative decisions made w/o thinking through the ramifications head of time.
I have my own philosophy about the current trend towards requiring all-electric appliances. However, I'll refrain from expressing it here for obvious reasons.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstage Happy and contented ex-FL/current Ohioan to stay put in my paradise,
Happy and contented ex-FL/current Ohioan to stay put in my paradise,
Geraldo, who also lives there, says it's cloudy all winter.
I went to college for a year in Melbourne, FL pre Disneyworld. Even then, it struck me that all the locals were from somewhere else. I missed the townhouses, brownstones, ornate turn of the century buildings.
I am now ensconced in the Shenandoah Valley. Terrible place, don't come here
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
SeeYou190 Yesterday a report came out naming Cape Coral, Florida as the most overpriced city in the country when it comes to rental property prices. The rental rates here are crazy, and there is a serious housing shortage. People just keep moving here, it seems like mostly from the Northeast and Canada now. Immigrants from these areas used to move to the East Coast, and we would get the Midwesterners. Now the immigrants from Michigan and Ohio are moving to the center of the state (Villages, Howie In The Hills, On Top Of The World) and New Yorkers/Bostonites are coming to the Gulf Coast. Folks... there are Hurricanes here! It is Summer 11 months out of the year, rains 6 months out of the year, everyone speaks Spanish, and we do not have gas stoves. The insects are worse than you can imagine. Yet... they just keep coming and then they complain about everything listed above. -Kevin
We get plenty of the Easterners here on the Atlantic side as well. As for rental rates, the house two doors down is going for $7000 a month! It was rented 1 day after going on the market. Houses are still selling in less than a week after being listed, even with the high interest rates. And they are selling at 3x what was paid for them when new in 2018/2019. It helps to have a HOA, keeps the properties kept up, and it also helps to have a water park that rivals Disney.
An "expensive model collector"
BigDaddy tstage Happy and contented ex-FL/current Ohioan to stay put in my paradise, Geraldo, who also lives there, says it's cloudy all winter.
Well, Geraldo is wrong, Henry - at least where I live. We do get sunny skies in winter. Are they as prolific as FL & AZ? Nope. But I think we enjoy & appreciate the sunny days we do get MORE than those who reside in those aforementioned states.
And, yes - I agree that Shenandoah Valley is a horrible place. Cannot STAND driving through there on the way to the Outer Banks in the springtime. I'd MUCH rather take the beltway around DC.
No HOAs for us, no gated communities, we are looking for country/suburbis with at least an acre of land, no city spaces.
Compared to here in Mass, property prices are lower, property taxes are lower, and the politicians don't seem to be as crazy. If you are listed as an Independent voter here, this is a totally blue state and the vote of Independents gets lost in the shuffle too.
Here on Cape Cod, the entire Cape has got to be sewerd, financed by betterments, extended over a 30 year period. The "projected" per parcel cost for our community is $90,000 over 30 years, subject to any increases. That betterment is in addition to your property tax! So far, no home owner assistance is provided for, but that is being "worked" on. Ouch! Time to move on!
Gas is the primary energy for buildings in Chicago. My condo building is pretty much all gas and it's new gut rehab of 120 year old building that had its entire structural frame and infrastructure replaced. Hot water system, in-unit furnaces and washer / dryers all gas. Same case for newer buildings.
But I know people switching to induction cooktops for cleaning and maintenance reasons. Then there's heat pumps for HVAC which give better room by room control than conventional gas furnaces.
I'm fortunately the HOA in my building. Our covenants and bylaws are straightforward. Keep power tool usage to a reasonable time of day, don't leave a big mess behind and don't obstruct exits or mechancial equipment. So no, I can't build track in front of the doors in the basement or block meters. The nice thing is I have a big open space to work with that I wouldn't get in a house.
Though my property taxes are higher, there's a greater return in Chicago for services provided and free amenities that would come up at a fee cost in other places. I don't need a car so that's a monthly expense I can instead spend on trains. I suppose if I were retired and staying home more, I'd be settling for a rural plot with lots of spaces and lower taxes
BigDaddyTerrible place, don't come here
My wife feels the same about life here on the plains. Whenever our little town talks about the need to attract new businesses and people, my wife has a fit. She keeps saying we don't want anyone here. That's the attraction of the place.
We actually have several stoplights in our town, and rush hour is when one or two cars are ahead of you at the stoplight.
As for gas stoves, certain groups will not be happy until there are vitually no open flames anywhere on earth.
York1 John
I just shake my head over some government busy body trying to make political hay by citing some study, probably biased, that calls for a ban on gas appliances. The number I saw said that 11% of a population got asthma when a gas stove was involved. OK, that means that 89% of that same population did not get asthma. There were probable other environmental or genetic factors that weren't mentioned.
We just spent $3,500 on a new gas stove/convection oven for the kitchen remodel. It cooks and bakes very well. It is well vented. No government entity is going to make us give it up.
Looking forward to the Garden City, KS train show in March. Hopefully the nice folks from Spring Creek Model Trains will be there this year. Ditto for the Free Mo folks.
York1 As far a gas stoves, certain groups will not be happy until there are vitually no open flames anywhere on earth.
As far a gas stoves, certain groups will not be happy until there are vitually no open flames anywhere on earth.
I'm happy I left Massachusetts 5 years ago and moved to Delaware where I am now. (Yes, I've tried to change my profile, but that doesn't work.) I am in a planned community in a small single family home, but I'm right on a tidal marsh on a creek that runs to the ocean about a mile away. At 75 and counting, I don't want to mow a lawn or shovel snow. We have a bonus room where my trains are. We have no sales tax, income tax is low and real estate taxes are dirt cheap. Crime in our tiny town of Ocean View is basically non-existent. Look it up. The only MR-listed train shop in Delaware is right here.
We can be a bit of a rebellious lot. During Covid, our community happy hours were suspended. So, my neighbors all went outside with lawn chairs and had our own happy hours, every Friday evening at 5.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Tin Can IILooking forward to the Garden City, KS train show in March. Hopefully the nice folks from Spring Creek Model Trains will be there this year. Ditto for the Free Mo folks.
I think Kansas has several upcoming shows: January 14 - McPherson, February 4 - Wichita, and March 11 - Garden City. I believe Spring Creek will be at all of those.
Tennessee is nice, beautiful land and mostly nice friendly people. Twenty three years ago we moved from Florida to NC and have never, ever regretted the move. Our house (in one of those planned communities) has that wonderful bonus rooms above the garage, natural gas for heat, water, and cooking which is great.
About that HOA, make sure to carefully read the entire document before signing. Look for keywords such as "Must" and "Should" because there is a difference and the HOA bigheads like to read "Should" as "Must" and if you ever get in a spat with the HOA it makes a huge (and legal) difference.
My wife painted the rails on our deck which according to certain despotic HOA members was PROHIBITED. The line from the HOA covenants read "Decks and Fences should be left to weather naturally" versus the next line "All decks and fences must comply with city building codes". I pointed out legally Should means that a certain feature, component and/or action is desirable but not mandatory.
-Mike in NC,..
No gas in Florida homes is not political or legislated, sorry if I made it sound that way.
We don't need to heat our homes, and way too much transient heat comes off of gas stoves. Thus, no need for residential gas utilities. You can get it if you want it. I recently found out there is a gas utility supply to my house.
Efficient electric cook tops that heat the pan, and not the room, just make more sense here.
No politics to it.
NorthsideChi Gas is the primary energy for buildings in Chicago. My condo building is pretty much all gas and it's new gut rehab of 120 year old building that had its entire structural frame and infrastructure replaced. Hot water system, in-unit furnaces and washer / dryers all gas. Same case for newer buildings. But I know people switching to induction cooktops for cleaning and maintenance reasons. Then there's heat pumps for HVAC which give better room by room control than conventional gas furnaces. I'm fortunately the HOA in my building. Our covenants and bylaws are straightforward. Keep power tool usage to a reasonable time of day, don't leave a big mess behind and don't obstruct exits or mechancial equipment. So no, I can't build track in front of the doors in the basement or block meters. The nice thing is I have a big open space to work with that I wouldn't get in a house. Though my property taxes are higher, there's a greater return in Chicago for services provided and free amenities that would come up at a fee cost in other places. I don't need a car so that's a monthly expense I can instead spend on trains. I suppose if I were retired and staying home more, I'd be settling for a rural plot with lots of spaces and lower taxes
And if you like that lifestyle, I am happy to let you enjoy it.
My last home had oil fired hot water heat - 5 zones, and two separate A/C systems. My current home has gas fired hot water heat and separate A/C.
It a building like you are in there are lots of good arguments for more electric based systems.
In a free standing single home those reasons do not hold up.
If my wife had to cook on an induction stove, I would be eating in resturants the rest of my life.
Room by room control - you mean mini splits. They have their place, just not in my house.
But again, hot water heat is also easily zoned.
I support choice - glad you are happy with your situation.
I work in construction - I need my truck.....
Oh I'd get a truck if I were doing more remodeling work on the side.
Yesterdays trip to home depot, carrying 8' long 2x4s on a subway train was an adventure and definitely a decision most people would avoid.
tstageCannot STAND driving through there on the way to the Outer Banks in the springtime. I'd MUCH rather take the beltway around DC.
We used to do the Hancock - Winchester - Paris - Fredericksburg cutoff when I was a kid and we were driving to Virginia Beach or the Outer Banks from Pittsburgh.
You're better off taking the Beltway and here's why. Even in traffic, the higher speed limit makes up for the congestion. There's very little actual stopped traffic on the 70 - 270 - Beltway - 95 run. The only real slowdowns and stopped traffic is south of the city, exactly where the cutoff dumps you out.
...and the stretch of I-64 between the I-295E bypass around Richmond and Williamsburg. 70 MPH...Stop...70 MPH...Stop...(repeat ad infinitum).
Sometimes I don't mind taking an alternate route - even it takes longer - so that I don't have to deal with traffic and stupid drivers. And I get to enjoy parts of the state that 99% of the highway drivers don't want to take the time to see.
NorthsideChi Oh I'd get a truck if I were doing more remodeling work on the side. Yesterdays trip to home depot, carrying 8' long 2x4s on a subway train was an adventure and definitely a decision most people would avoid.
Eh? When we lived on Long Island the lumber yard would deliver to our house. Those were in the days before Home Depot et.al.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
At the moment we are burning gas. It happens to be cheaper than coal, but shopuld that change, we will run the coal boiler. The gas boiler is half the size of the coal boiler, but twice the BTU. This heats our entire campus, about 5 buildings.
Rural Place we are. our property is 3 square miles, but we no longer do our own ranching, so another rancher rents most of our land.
This part of North Dakota does have mountain LIONS, but actually I have never seen one this far east, though I have heard of the as far easat as Bismarck. I keep looking out the window for a LION, after all (like prayer) yolu will never see one if you do not look. Our cook, ten mies west of us has had them in her yard. The upset the other critters that she raises. She buys piglets in the spring and slaughters them in the fall, not keeping (and caring for them) over the Winter.
OH, YEAH, New York and its governator Hotchill. Yeah she is going after gas stoves, but worse yet, she wants the states to impose some zoning laws. All proberty within a half mile of an MTA train or subway station must now be zoned for multiple dwelling affordable income housing, 3 to 4 strories tall. Fortunatel most of that land is already developed so I am not sure what she is doing except trying to upset the worng kind of voters. Maybe they will move to Florida.
I have lived up and down the western shore of the Chesapeake Bay all my life.
We avoid DC as much as possible, I would rather go north to Phily or Wilmington....
Beaches, after 65 years the novelty of the ocean has worn off, but if we do want to go, Cape May, Wildwood NJ, or the Delaware shore is two hours or less from our spot right at the headwaters where the Susquehanna dumps into the bay in beautiful Havre de Grace, MD.
No long vacation drives here.....
I wanted to move to the Shenandoah Valley, just could not talk the wife into it.....
But it is pretty, quiet and rural where we are.
When I lived in Concord, MA, by the train tracks, I was building something and needed a 4x8 sheet of plywood. I had a very small car, so I walked over to the lumber yard with a pair of heavy gloves. The guy asked me where my truck was, and was kind of blown away when I told him I would just carry it home.
Generally any material over 100 lbs I'll have delivered. or if it's free delivery, drywall definitely. But if I can move it on a cart or it fits in an elevator which means it will fit in a subway car, a $2.75 train fare and 40 minute workout and some fresh air is worth it. Any major oversized freight they'll have you board at the front car so you can tell the operator the stop you're getting off
I've often wondered why gas, or electric ovens for that matter, are not vented to the outside. That keep any combustion fumes, excess heat, and cooking odors out of the house. A hood over the stove catches only some, but not all of those.
Another thought is to use outside air for refridgeration when the temperature is appropiate.
Mark
mvlandsw I've often wondered why gas, or electric ovens for that matter, are not vented to the outside. That keep any combustion fumes, excess heat, and cooking odors out of the house. A hood over the stove catches only some, but not all of those. Another thought is to use outside air for refridgeration when the temperature is appropiate. Mark
First, despite recent "studies" suggesting hazzards which have not been conducted with a correct scientific approach, the output gases and byproducts of burning natural gas or propane are extremely small quantities.
Both gases burn about 98% pure leaving mostly water vapor, whch is actually good for your indoor environment in the winter.
I have my own ideas on the rise in asthma cases but that is another subject.
Despite advancements in electric based appliances, gas and oil still provide the highest total energy efficency for heating tasks in most cases.
And again, a modern 85% or 90% efficent gas or oil boiler running a hydronic heat system in a single home equals or exceeds the performance of any electric based system - and if that electricity is being generated with fossil fuels, the carbon footprint of the small individual gas or oil system is less.
Side note - I am an electrcian and electrical designer by original trade.... currently self employed asa residential designer, historic restoration consultant, and master restoration carpenter.
If you generate electricity and do not use it that instant - it, and the energy used to create it, are lost.
And there are line losses in transmission from the power plant to your home.
With a gas or oil fired boiler, with hot water based heat, every BTU of heat released in the process is used to heat your home.
More about cooking.
It is harder to cook on an electric stove, and often the burner is "on" for a greater time but not actually being used.
With gas you have the advantage of instant on, instant off with much quicker response time to changes in the burner setting. Pans heat up quicker, temperature can be better controlled. When off burner grates cool much quicker than electric elements.
And now to life cycle costs.
A gas or oil boiler for heating, or even a forced air gas or oil furnace, will last longer with less maintence than any heat pump ever built. The current life span of heat pumps is 12-15 years. A typical quality boiler will last 40 years with only minor repairs to ancillary equipment.
So if we factor in these costs, inconveniences, carbon footprint/resource depleation of replacement equipment manufacture, etc, the individual fossil plant wins again.
Systems that provide ONLY air conditioning also have a lifespan that is nearly twice that of a typical heat pump.
Gas ranges also typically last longer than electric ranges as well.
I restored this house in 1996:
It has five zone hot water baseboard heat, and two zones of a/c. Our combined efforts at energy conservation reduced its energy consumption by 40%. The a/c systems we installed then are still working with only minor repairs in 27 years. The modern boiler we installed is only the third heating plant in the 122 year life of the home. We sold it just two years ago.
There will be a test later today.....
Obviously nobody uses electric stoves because they're too hard to cook on.
https://www.statista.com/chart/29082/most-common-type-of-stove-in-the-us/
Come on mods, this thread truly has absolutely nothing to do with model railroading.