Back in the 70s and 80s it was common for manufacurers to offer unpowered model locomotives for use in MU running. Do they still do that or has technology advanced to where it's not needed anymore? Are modern models good enough to make it easy to synchronize speed and pulling power?
When I see pictures/videos of 3-6 diesels pulling a model train are these typically powered?
Nowadays the price of the motor is minimal so it makes no sense to offer dummy units.
Also, back in the day the old motors would draw close to an amp of power and most power packs of the time were only good for an amp so two powered units would overheat and possibly ruin a power pack. So Athearn and others came up with dummies so the train would look prototypical with multiple units and not destroy the power packs.
That is why Troller came up with their 2.5 amp power pack which finally forced MRC to up their game with a 2 amp pack. With the advent of the can motor 4 powered units barely draw an amp.
Rick Jesionowski
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"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
I have a few dummy units. The shells date back to my teenage layout in the early 60s, so I refer to them as "honorary" engines. One used to be powered, but it didn't really run acceptably so I gutted it. All have Kadees, and a couple have headlights. One is even a "sound dummy."
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I converted a Proto 2000 E unit to a dummy because it made so much noise that it overpowered the sound decoder's output. The other unit is heavy enough to pull the train by itself anyway.
Another reason to have dummy units if you don't need the power is to avoid the cost of a decoder when running multiple units.
Nobody is selling dummies new anymore but you may be able to buy units with defective drive trains and remove the gearing.
Mark
dti406 Nowadays the price of the motor is minimal so it makes no sense to offer dummy units. Also, back in the day the old motors would draw close to an amp of power and most power packs of the time were only good for an amp so two powered units would overheat and possibly ruin a power pack. So Athearn and others came up with dummies so the train would look prototypical with multiple units and not destroy the power packs. That is why Troller came up with their 2.5 amp power pack which finally forced MRC to up their game with a 2 amp pack. With the advent of the can motor 4 powered units barely draw an amp. Rick Jesionowski
A common reason for dummys back in the day was because it was much harder to speed match motors with out dcc. Also, I have an Athearn BB dummy F7A and a life like pancake motor GP38-2 that I pulled the armature and gears out of. I use these dummys frequently.
I can't believe this topic just posted as I was just thinking about this over the weekend. I had a few dummy locos and even a dummy slug when I modeled N scale in the late 70s and would sure like to see some now. My layout train length does not need two powered units but would like to see two units pulling a short string of coal cars like you see in so many C&O or Chessie photos. Manufacures should offer a set with a powered unit and a matching dummy unit option. I don't have to shell out higher dollars for second loco or mess with matching loco DCC numbers or speed sinc. The dummy could have an open cab to have a little detail, or at least no gray metal against the cab window.
The BLI shark noses could be bought with "dummy" B units in the last half decade or so
At the risk of being a snarky old curmudgeon again.
First, the demise of dummy units has nothing to do with DCC or speed matching and 40 years ago my matched sets of Athearn F7's all ran fine together on DC just like they do today.
Do locos today have better motors, draw less current, and run smoother? Sure they do.
And the gear ratios from brand to brand are often closer allowing easier matching of different brands - with or without the speed matching benefits of DCC.
Dummy units are gone because it simply does not save much money, layouts are often bigger now, longer trains require more power, modelers like the versitility of separating or running together a group of locos rather than being locked into running them as a consist.
I still run DC and most of my trains are 35-50 cars, and require 3-4 powered units to pull them. And guess what? It works just fine without any DCC speed matching.
In fact, many of my trains are pulled by double headed steam locos and many are two different wheel arrangements from two different brands.
All you need is similar starting voltages, similar overall gearing, and a train heavy enough to justify multiple locos.
Any other myths and falsehoods we need to dispel?
Sheldon
MJ4562 Back in the 70s and 80s it was common for manufacurers to offer unpowered model locomotives for use in MU running. Do they still do that or has technology advanced to where it's not needed anymore? Are modern models good enough to make it easy to synchronize speed and pulling power? When I see pictures/videos of 3-6 diesels pulling a model train are these typically powered?
To answer your last question directly - yes, most modelers today are running all powered units, even if it is six of them.
As a percentage of total cost of the loco, I would guess that the shell is much more labor intensive than the old days of popping it out of the mold and then painting and lettering it, with varying results.
The drive train is a much lower part of the total cost of the model, so its always included.
And with DCC, a modeler still might want some lighting and sound for the dummy unit, so electronics are desireable as much as the detailed shell.
- Douglas
I remember a thread where Rapido Trains (Jason) discussed this when they came out with the Amtrak "cabbage" units, which are retired F40PH's with the prime mover removed.
https://rapidotrains.com/ho-scale/diesel-locomotives/npcu-cabbage-second-run.html
He talked about how little the motor and drive train cost compared to the tooling to produce the car, so they decided to offer powered units.
I still have some Athearn BB non powered F units laying around.
Mike.
My You Tube
I've had a dummy NYC E-7B unit for quite a while. I can't remember who made it or where I got it but it has a different shade of gray than any of my Walthers E-7s or E-8s so I don't often include it in the consist.
Last year I found a Pennsy tuscan Athearn BB F-7A on ebay and was able to locate a matching F-7B dummy unit about the same time so I picked that up as well. I fabricated a drawbar to connect them because of the poor coupler box Athearn had on their BB diesels. No way to get them to couple anywhere close to a reasonable distance apart using couplers.
John-NYBW I've had a dummy NYC E-7B unit for quite a while. I can't remember who made it or where I got it but it has a different shade of gray than any of my Walthers E-7s or E-8s so I don't often include it in the consist. Last year I found a Pennsy tuscan Athearn BB F-7A on ebay and was able to locate a matching F-7B dummy unit about the same time so I picked that up as well. I fabricated a drawbar to connect them because of the poor coupler box Athearn had on their BB diesels. No way to get them to couple anywhere close to a reasonable distance apart using couplers.
Sure there is John. For more than a decade, maybe two, American Limited has made a coupler pocket retro fit for Athearn BB F7's along with their diaphragms that gives perfect close coupling. Pictures and details when I get home.
John-NYBWI fabricated a drawbar to connect them because of the poor coupler box Athearn had on their BB diesels. No way to get them to couple anywhere close to a reasonable distance apart using couplers.
My first HO scale diesels were an early A-B-B-A set from Athearn, painted and lettered in the Santa Fe "war bonnet" scheme. As best as I can recall, this was in 1956.One A-unit was powered by a single motor, mounted directly on the lead truck. All four units were equipped with early all-metal Kadee couplers, like these...
...and the A-units had rubber diaphragms (with interlocking metal faceplates) on their rear and similar diaphragms on both ends of both B-units.
I eventually repainted them in my own two-tone grey & green paint scheme and they were later sold...
I also had a couple of steam locos, one a all-metal Tyco 0-6-0 tank engine and a John English Pacific...still have both of them, and am up-grading the Pacific.
Here's the re-worked Pacific with a scratchbuilt tender...
...but it's due for some upgrading soon.
Some years later, I bought some affordable RS-11 diesels, that turned-out to have very poor motors and extremely over-size handrails....I removed the motors and replaced the fat hard-plastic handrails with piano wire and Athearn metal handrail stanchions...
Then paired them-up with two similar-looking Atlas diesels...
All of the dummies (except me, of course) are long-gone, useful for looking decent, but not all that great for pulling a train.
Wayne
ATLANTIC CENTRAL John-NYBW I've had a dummy NYC E-7B unit for quite a while. I can't remember who made it or where I got it but it has a different shade of gray than any of my Walthers E-7s or E-8s so I don't often include it in the consist. Last year I found a Pennsy tuscan Athearn BB F-7A on ebay and was able to locate a matching F-7B dummy unit about the same time so I picked that up as well. I fabricated a drawbar to connect them because of the poor coupler box Athearn had on their BB diesels. No way to get them to couple anywhere close to a reasonable distance apart using couplers. Sure there is John. For more than a decade, maybe two, American Limited has made a coupler pocket retro fit for Athearn BB F7's along with their diaphragms that gives perfect close coupling. Pictures and details when I get home. Sheldon
Here you go John,
https://www.americanlimitedmodels.com/ho-athearn-f-unit-close-coupling-adapter-kit-black/
Plastic bodied 'dummy' diesels I believe started in the late 1940s with the B-units sold in train sets with Lionel's three-rail O Santa Fe and NYC F3s. Due to the AC power, direction changes had to be done with a mechanical device - the "E unit". It was/is hard to get two E-units to work together, so they just put two motors in the A unit (one for each truck IIRC) and the B unit was just an unpowered dummy. Lionel later also offered other dummy engines, include their GP-7/9 models.
Fact Check:
Broadway Limited Imports TODAY sells HO dummy B units with their A-B sets of E1 units. They also offer the very same road number as a separate B unit, but powered with their sound and dcc. Someone who desires to do so can assemble a factory powered A-B set OR can buy the factory A-B set having only the A unit powered.
So dummy units are still available for sale, brand new, just not necessarily A unit dummies.
For their F units, it looks right now as if all B units are sold separately and are currently powered.
PRR8259 Fact Check: Broadway Limited Imports TODAY sells HO dummy B units with their A-B sets of E1 units. They also offer the very same road number as a separate B unit, but powered with their sound and dcc. Someone who desires to do so can assemble a factory powered A-B set OR can buy the factory A-B set having only the A unit powered. So dummy units are still available for sale, brand new, just not necessarily A unit dummies. For their F units, it looks right now as if all B units are sold separately and are currently powered.
Yes there are still the occasional choices by manufacturers to offer dummies, typically with the kind of loco you mentioned, a passenger cab unit where the A has more than enough power for most modelers needs.
Even at that they are rare offerings today.
Way back in the late 80's/early 90's the first Proto2000 PA/PB sets, and EMD E6 set, only offered dummy B units, and lot od guys, including myself, bought extra powered A units to power our B units.
Later Proto changed their thinking on this, only offering powered B units.
Personally, I have never had any use for dummy units, going all the way back to my earliest days in the hobby 55 years ago.
I have used dummy units and probably would again except that my next layout may be only a 5 x 9 switching and terminal kind of layout.
I have taken a poor running Genesis red/silver warbonnet unit and gutted the gears out of it to make it into a dummy unit.
Don't want to have to do that again, but given circumstances, I might.
Any manufacturer is capable of making a dog that does not run well. Sometimes the initial test run does not reveal issues.
I like it that Bowser, Athearn and ScaleTrains tend to have very easy body shell removal methods. Some others do too, but maybe not consistently easy on all models.
John