ebay is a perfect example of the free market at work. It brings together buyers and sellers. Every transaction that is completed on ebay is done freely between the buyer and seller at a price agreeable to both. The seller is free to ask whatever price he wants for his merchandise and the seller is free to decide what he is willing to pay. Both sides have to come together on a price for there to be a transaction.
This past week, I have had an item on my watchlist with a starting bid price of $599. There were 0 bids and the auction ended this morning with no one bidding on the item. The seller simply relisted it at the same price. There is also a Make an Offer option for the item and I figured since the seller got no bids on his asking price, he might accept a lower offer. I offered $540, a 10% reduction, but the offer was immediately rejected by the system which tells me the seller has set a higher minimum.
I'm not complaining. The seller has every right to ask as much as he wants for his item. He seems willing to wait until he gets his asking price. That is his right also. My right as a buyer is to determine how much I am willing to pay for the item. Since there were no takers at $599, I thought my offer was a fair one but apparently the seller does not think so. Right now we seem too far apart to make a deal. I had to talk myself into offering as much as I did so I don't see myself offering any more than I have. The seller seems determined to get his asking price but he won't be getting it from me. That's how a free market works.
I agree, John. I don't use eBay nearly as much as I used to but this is more of a sign that I'm toward the "finish line" of my layout and rolling stock needs rather than simply avoiding the site.
I can think of dozens of specific parts or desired models I've found on eBay over the years. It would have taken untold hours of scouring hobby shops or train shows to try to find that needle in the haystack I was searching for.
So, to me, eBay is just one more tool I can depend on for finding a sometimes scarce or obscure bit of "unobtanium". I, too, have been approached by sellers after the end of auctions with offers, sometimes with considerably lower prices arranged through a mutual agreement and still within eBay's policy. I've never subverted eBay's EULA by making deals off-site.
Sometimes I've been offered discounted prices simply by adding an item to my "watch list" and I've found many desireable items by using the saved search feature and sometimes keeping the notification option checked so I get an email alert if something appears that I've been searching for.
I still enjoy browsing hobby shops and several train shows in the area and those in themselves are yet another "tool" for helping me enjoy my hobby.
Thanks, Ed
I know which auction you are referring to, and I was a bit surprised that there were zero bids, especially during the last minute or so.
Regarding the Best Offer option, my experience and observations about eBay listings tell me this. If the Best Offer is tagged to a Buy It Now listing, the seller is telegraphing that he will accept less. If the Best Offer is tagged to an Auction listing (a somewhat unusual event), the seller is willing to end the auction if a potential buyer offers a higher price than the starting or current bid, but that higher price better be a lot higher.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain I know which auction you are referring to, and I was a bit surprised that there were zero bids, especially during the last minute or so. Regarding the Best Offer option, my experience and observations about eBay listings tell me this. If the Best Offer is tagged to a Buy It Now listing, the seller is telegraphing that he will accept less. If the Best Offer is tagged to an Auction listing (a somewhat unusual event), the seller is willing to end the offer if a potential buyer offers a higher price than the starting or current bid, but that higher price better be a lot higher. Rich
Regarding the Best Offer option, my experience and observations about eBay listings tell me this. If the Best Offer is tagged to a Buy It Now listing, the seller is telegraphing that he will accept less. If the Best Offer is tagged to an Auction listing (a somewhat unusual event), the seller is willing to end the offer if a potential buyer offers a higher price than the starting or current bid, but that higher price better be a lot higher.
The item in question is brand new. There is a pre-owned version of the same item with a buy it now price $100 more than the starting bid for the new one. If I were so inclined, I could have already bought the new one for $100 less. Maybe the seller of the new one thinks he is already offering his item at a discount. Until one of them makes a sale, we really won't know what either is worth.
I can wait for the price to come down and if it doesn't, it isn't an item I have to have. It looks like the seller can wait also for the right buyer to come around. One of us might get rewarded for our patience.
PS. As a point of reference, a pre-owned version of this item sold on December 23. It had a Buy it Now price of $499 but the listing indicates that a Best Offer was accepted so apparently it sold for less. How much less we can only guess at. I had factored that in when I made my offer.
It's very interesting to see how different eBay "communities", or the different seller groups around different hobbies, work. Model trains tends to be pretty reasonable and laid back, which is definitely enjoyable. My other big hobby, wargaming, tends to be a mix of people selling stuff you could get from the store for 2-3x as much since they made the listing when it wasn't available, some people really overvaluing what they have just because it's old (imagine someone trying to sell an athearn blue box boxcar, not even a particularly rare one, for $150+), and stuff like that.
I think that generally speaking both buyers and sellers in the model railroading community know the vague values of stuff when they're transacting on ebay, and as such it works out pretty well. It's usually the same at train shows for what it's worth.
allegedlynerdy It's very interesting to see how different eBay "communities", or the different seller groups around different hobbies, work. Model trains tends to be pretty reasonable and laid back, which is definitely enjoyable. My other big hobby, wargaming, tends to be a mix of people selling stuff you could get from the store for 2-3x as much since they made the listing when it wasn't available, some people really overvaluing what they have just because it's old (imagine someone trying to sell an athearn blue box boxcar, not even a particularly rare one, for $150+), and stuff like that.
Oh it does exist in the model train category on EBay. Many items which are no longer made will go for double, if not more from the original MSRP. I went looking for a freight car, which is no available anymore and it was twice the price PLUS the shipping was more than double the standard first class shipping compared to like items.
It's what a seller thinks he can get on EBay. Many are successful; others not so. I watched an engine get listed more than 6 times and it's still there!!
If you want it badly, you'll pay the price. If not, either the seller will lower the cost or take it down for a period of time and then relist it, or just keep it.
allegedlynerdyMy other big hobby, wargaming <SNIP> some people really overvaluing what they have just because it's old (imagine someone trying to sell an athearn blue box boxcar, not even a particularly rare one, for $150+), and stuff like that.
My Bretonnian army is made up of all metal knight figures from 2nd edition Empire, and 3rd - 5th edition Bretonnia.
At the prices some people ask for these old out-of-production figures, I could probably get $20,000.00 for the whole army.
-Photographs by Kevin Parson
It is definitely not for sale.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
John-NYBWPS. As a point of reference, a pre-owned version of this item sold on December 23. It had a Buy it Now price of $499 but the listing indicates that a Best Offer was accepted so apparently it sold for less. How much less we can only guess at. I had factored that in when I made my offer.
Well, I don't have to guess 'cause...and it went to me. It was a "Buy It Now" so the seller was willing to take the offer for less than his asking price. I offered him what I felt was a reasonable offer and, apparently, he felt the same. Another factor is that the set was donated to the organization that the seller belonged to so there was no financial investment for him. Whatever he sold it for was windfall for the organization.
And, while the one I purchased was "pre-owned", it had not been out of its package and was basically in pristine condition when I unpacked it this past Thursday. It was also the original 3-car set offered by the manufacturer and did NOT include the 4th add-on car that the other two current sales you are referring to offer; hence the lower price.
I, too, watched the waning minutes of the $599 auction this morning and was equally surprised by the no bid. I figured one person would come in and place a bid near the end.
And I totally agree with Rich. The "acceptable" minimum offer for a "Buy It Now" is almost always lower than for an auction with a "Best Offer" option. The latter has always said to me, "My starting bid is [this] so any offer [made by you] should be above that price."
FWIW...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
John-NYBW ebay is a perfect example of the free market at work. It brings together buyers and sellers. Every transaction that is completed on ebay is done freely between the buyer and seller at a price agreeable to both. The seller is free to ask whatever price he wants for his merchandise and the seller is free to decide what he is willing to pay. Both sides have to come together on a price for there to be a transaction. This past week, I have had an item on my watchlist with a starting bid price of $599. There were 0 bids and the auction ended this morning with no one bidding on the item. The seller simply relisted it at the same price. There is also a Make an Offer option for the item and I figured since the seller got no bids on his asking price, he might accept a lower offer. I offered $540, a 10% reduction, but the offer was immediately rejected by the system which tells me the seller has set a higher minimum. I'm not complaining. The seller has every right to ask as much as he wants for his item. He seems willing to wait until he gets his asking price. That is his right also. My right as a buyer is to determine how much I am willing to pay for the item. Since there were no takers at $599, I thought my offer was a fair one but apparently the seller does not think so. Right now we seem too far apart to make a deal. I had to talk myself into offering as much as I did so I don't see myself offering any more than I have. The seller seems determined to get his asking price but he won't be getting it from me. That's how a free market works.
John, that is all well and good, and that is how a free market works, no question.
BUT, if the creator of a product cannot sell that product at a reasonable profit margin above his cost to produce, the product will eventually disapear from the market place.
No matter how many people want it at $500, if it costs $600 to produce it will disapear.
Lots of products become surplus for lots of various reasons, and somewhere, somehow, somebody looses money if they are sold for less than the "cost to produce plus the cost of doing business".
And we all benefit from those situations at one time or another, and that is fine.
And many businesses absorb such losses into their cost of doing business thru the profits they make on other products.
Ebay is the wild west, you have no idea how you seller came to have the item for sale, you have no idea what he paid for it, if he paid for it. You have no idea his motivation for selling it.
And that's ok. It's like a big flea market, some people are there to make a living, others are there to clean out the basement.
But don't kid yourself into thinking that it somehow defines the "value" of newly manufactured products.
It only defines the value of that one copy of that product that the one seller wants to be rid of.
My humble opinion is based on being self employed most of my life, in small one or two man ventures that provide goods or services to specialized markets.
I have invented products, manufacturered them, marketed them. Sometimes with great success, sometimes with only modest results, and some of my best products proved hard to market.
The real money in selling, is to find the low overhead product you can create for $1 and sell for $2 - that is harder than you think - it surely is not a model train.
Sheldon
As one who still uses eBay on occasion, I have personally seen this occur. Lots of "I want this price" and it sits on eBay until the price gets lowered, or someone wants it badly enough to pay it.
Some listings start bids low, and they then go sky high. (One HO Scale Athearn BlueBox Huskystack car, custom painted, went for over $150 recently.)
I've also seen where a low starting bid is used, and it goes for far less than retail. (I just scored one where the start bid, on a brand new item, was only 15% of retail price, and I was the only bidder.)
So, sometimes deals are found, sometimes not so much. Sometimes the buyer is very happy at the price, sometimes the seller is. But the sale only happens when both are willing for the price to be what it is.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
I should clarify: there are definitely times when out of production stuff is worth the prices they ask: but some sellers also equate "out of production" to "worth its weight in gold" even for stuff that is super ubiquitous still. Hence my example of a common blue box boxcar having an insanely high asking price as the "model train" equivalent. I think generally there's very few listings i have seen where they want 4-5x what something is worth in a model train setting: when something is rare it of course goes up, but people know that it is based on rarity and desire, not just "oldness"
I use Ebay to find long out of production items. Many aren't necessarily that rare, but hoping to find a 40-50-60 year old item at a train show is like looking through a haystack for a needle that may or may not be there.
Last night I picked up a Cary box cab body for an Athearn Hustler, $46.00 Buy It Now. The original price on the box was $8.50. If that was from 1973, I got it for less than MSRP. if it was 1976, about even, but I still did better, because of shipping. BUT! This one comes with the Hustler chassis, and it all looks very clean. Those are pretty rare. I'm stoked!
I can't do train shows, they're all too far away. Ebay is at my fingertips, and catagorized. But better than that even, Ebay is where I learned this item existed, about a year ago. A few years ago, I searched some very well stocked LHSs for a Cary Heavy Mikado boiler, OOP, but hoping. Nope. Ebay, Yep, and with the detail kit AND a Mellor cab, which I didn't know existed.
With Ebay and oldie stuff, patience pays off. Dan
Auctions are designed to raise the purchase price of an item, so the "make offer" button in an auction setting is expecting to see an offer HIGHER than the starting bid price. Seller might accept a reasonable offer above starting bid price instead of waiting for an auction. So if the starting bid price is $599, any offer less than that is likley going to be rejected.
If it was a Buy It Now listing with a list price of $599, the "make offer" button is used when the seller will accept an offer lower than list price.
Not arguing what the item should go for. Just saying that there is a difference in what to expect from a "make offer" button depending upon what type of listing it is.
- Douglas
Doughless Auctions are designed to raise the purchase price of an item, so the "make offer" button in an auction setting is expecting to see an offer HIGHER than the starting bid price. Seller might accept a reasonable offer above starting bid price instead of waiting for an auction. So if the starting bid price is $599, any offer less than that is likley going to be rejected. If it was a Buy It Now listing with a list price of $599, the "make offer" button is used when the seller will accept an offer lower than list price. Not arguing what the item should go for. Just saying that there is a difference in what to expect from a "make offer" button depending upon what type of listing it is.
tstage And I totally agree with Rich. The "acceptable" minimum offer for a "Buy It Now" is almost always lower than for an auction with a "Best Offer" option. The latter has always said to me, "My starting bid is [this] so any offer [made by you] should be above that price." FWIW... Tom
This was the first time I had seen an auction with a Make an Offer option so I wasn't sure how this would work. When the auction ran out with no bids, I thought maybe the seller would accept my offer lower than his starting bid price but the system rejected my offer instantly. This was faster than the seller could possibly have responded so apparently the system is programmed to automatically reject any bid lower than the starting bid price.
I'm going to keep this item in my watchlist. Maybe the seller will eventually come down in price. Maybe somebody will meet his minimum price. Maybe I'll talk myself into being that somebody. This is how the free market works. That's why I like ebay.
About 30 years ago, Rivarossi issued a Cardinal trainset. It was based on a special train the New York Central painted red to transport Catholic Cardinals from New York to Chicago for a meeting in 1926. The Cardinals had arrived in New York by ship from all over the world.
The Rivarossi set is nothing more than their generic heavyweight passenger cars molded with red livery and trimmed in gold. The loco is a standard Rivarossi Hudson, also painted red. No attempt was made to duplicate the actual consist of the train.
I bought this set at a time in my life when I was flush with cash and it was pretty much an impulse purchase. I thought I would put it to use on my layout but it has rarely been out of the original box which is now pretty faded but still in one piece. I've been considering selling it on ebay and have seen a number of this set offered on ebay for a wide range of prices, some north of $900. There is a current listing for $649 with 0 bids. I'm wondering if this is by the same guy who was asking $900+ a year or so ago. The ones I have seen sold have been in the $300-400 range. I think I would let mine go for $400 but not at $300. I'm not sure what my minimum price would be. If I were to put this train into service on my layout, I would have to upgrade the cars with added weight, body mounted KDs, and diaphragms. I'd also have to put a sound decoder in the Hudson. I'd probably pay almost as much to upgrade it as I did to buy it originally. Decisions, decisions.
John-NYBW This was the first time I had seen an auction with a Make an Offer option so I wasn't sure how this would work. When the auction ran out with no bids, I thought maybe the seller would accept my offer lower than his starting bid price but the system rejected my offer instantly. This was faster than the seller could possibly have responded so apparently the system is programmed to automatically reject any bid lower than the starting bid price. I'm going to keep this item in my watchlist. Maybe the seller will eventually come down in price. Maybe somebody will meet his minimum price. Maybe I'll talk myself into being that somebody. This is how the free market works. That's why I like ebay.
The rejection of Best Offers has always been a choice by the seller, even well before this new listing tool was introduced, to manually review all Best Offers or to set up a listing to automatically reject offers below a minimum accepted price. That minimum accepted price can be, and almost always is, higher than the starting bid.
In the present case, will the seller eventually come down in price? Anything is possible, but I would be willing to bet that this particular seller for this particular item will sell the item at or higher than the current starting bid. Why? Because the starting bid is entirely fair given recent sales of identical, or at least similar, items. If you want this item bad enough, make a Best Offer higher than $599. Try $639. Or, place a starting bid of $599 and keep your fingers crossed.
John-NYBW I've been considering selling it on ebay and have seen a number of this set offered on ebay for a wide range of prices, some north of $900. There is a current listing for $649 with 0 bids. I'm wondering if this is by the same guy who was asking $900+ a year or so ago. The ones I have seen sold have been in the $300-400 range. I think I would let mine go for $400 but not at $300.
I've been considering selling it on ebay and have seen a number of this set offered on ebay for a wide range of prices, some north of $900. There is a current listing for $649 with 0 bids. I'm wondering if this is by the same guy who was asking $900+ a year or so ago. The ones I have seen sold have been in the $300-400 range. I think I would let mine go for $400 but not at $300.
richhotrain In the present case, will the seller eventually come down in price? Anything is possible, but I would be willing to bet that this particular seller for this particular item will sell the item at or higher than the current starting bid. Why? Because the starting bid is entirely fair given recent sales of identical, or at least similar, items. If you want this item bad enough, make a Best Offer higher than $599. Try $639. Or, place a starting bid of $599 and keep your fingers crossed. Rich
It all depends on how patient the seller is willing to be. If he holds out long enough, he might get his asking price. Right now I'm not willing to meet it.
The newspaper I used to subscribe to had a Sunday real estate advice column. One writer was complaining that his house had been on the market for almost a year and he had yet to get an offer on it. I forget what his asking price was but he said he needed to get X amount of dollars for it. The guy giving the advice had to tell him that his needs didn't make the buying public more willing to pay his price. He would either need to lower his asking price or continue to wait for his asking price.
That is a decision all sellers must make, especially on a platform like ebay. Just because you want or need to get a certain price for your item isn't going to make somebody else more prone to give you that price. The seller has to decide whether to lower his price or continue to wait for the right buyer.
John-NYBW It all depends on how patient the seller is willing to be. If he holds out long enough, he might get his asking price. Right now I'm not willing to meet it.
The orignal price from Con Cor was $430 for the 3 car set and $150 for the extra car.
So, $600 is more or less the right price if it is perfect.
I considered buying one when they came out. They could be had for about $480 with the extra car.
I decided I had enough passenger equipment.
It is getting harder to buy good trains on ebay. I am getting stuff with minor issues, sometimes not repairable, at too high a price. I am much more careful now to only buy from legitimate dealers selling brand new stuff. Too much used stuff is misrepresented.
John-NYBW tstage And I totally agree with Rich. The "acceptable" minimum offer for a "Buy It Now" is almost always lower than for an auction with a "Best Offer" option. The latter has always said to me, "My starting bid is [this] so any offer [made by you] should be above that price." FWIW... Tom This was the first time I had seen an auction with a Make an Offer option so I wasn't sure how this would work. When the auction ran out with no bids, I thought maybe the seller would accept my offer lower than his starting bid price but the system rejected my offer instantly. This was faster than the seller could possibly have responded so apparently the system is programmed to automatically reject any bid lower than the starting bid price. I'm going to keep this item in my watchlist. Maybe the seller will eventually come down in price. Maybe somebody will meet his minimum price. Maybe I'll talk myself into being that somebody. This is how the free market works. That's why I like ebay.
rrebell John-NYBW This was the first time I had seen an auction with a Make an Offer option so I wasn't sure how this would work. When the auction ran out with no bids, I thought maybe the seller would accept my offer lower than his starting bid price but the system rejected my offer instantly. No, the seller was just proubly on his machine, it happens. I have made offers and gotten a response faster than I can type and on other got a response a few days later and gotten counter offers too, it all depends.
John-NYBW This was the first time I had seen an auction with a Make an Offer option so I wasn't sure how this would work. When the auction ran out with no bids, I thought maybe the seller would accept my offer lower than his starting bid price but the system rejected my offer instantly.
This was the first time I had seen an auction with a Make an Offer option so I wasn't sure how this would work. When the auction ran out with no bids, I thought maybe the seller would accept my offer lower than his starting bid price but the system rejected my offer instantly.
No, the seller was just proubly on his machine, it happens. I have made offers and gotten a response faster than I can type and on other got a response a few days later and gotten counter offers too, it all depends.
Doughless so the "make offer" button in an auction setting is expecting to see an offer HIGHER than the starting bid price.
I don't understand this concept.
If I go to train show and someone has an item priced which isn't moving, and says to a potential customer "make me an offer", are you saying that said customer is expected to make an offer higher than the posted price?
maxman Doughless so the "make offer" button in an auction setting is expecting to see an offer HIGHER than the starting bid price. I don't understand this concept.If I go to train show and someone has an item priced which isn't moving, and says to a potential customer "make me an offer", are you saying that said customer is expected to make an offer higher than the posted price?
I don't understand this concept.If I go to train show and someone has an item priced which isn't moving, and says to a potential customer "make me an offer", are you saying that said customer is expected to make an offer higher than the posted price?
So, in your example, the seller is expecting the potential buyer to make an offer less than the advertised price.
On the other hand, in an auction type listing on eBay, the seller sets a starting bid but is willing to consider ending the auction if someone is willing to buy the item at a higher price acceptable to the seller.
PRR8259It is getting harder to buy good trains on ebay. I am getting stuff with minor issues, sometimes not repairable, at too high a price. I am much more careful now to only buy from legitimate dealers selling brand new stuff. Too much used stuff is misrepresented.
I guess it all depends on what you are looking for and what you expect.
I don't buy much on Ebay anymore, or anywhere. My want list is very small, Ihave a lot of trains, and I don't keep changing my mind about what I want.
But a few months ago I found really nice NOS Proto2000 PA and PB units - at nice prices in perfect condition. DISCLAIMER - they are undecorated DC models, perfection will depend on me, not some little girl in China.
But prices on there are up, no question.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI considered buying one when they came out. They could be had for about $480 with the extra car. I decided I had enough passenger equipment.
Since the Zephyr didn't really operate eastwardly much past Chicago, it really wouldn't have fit your Atlantic Central based layout, would it, Sheldon? Course, it doesn't fit my NYC intentions either - LOL.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe orignal price from Con Cor was $430 for the 3 car set and $150 for the extra car. So, $600 is more or less the right price if it is perfect.
I agree with Sheldon, John. The current starting bid for the NIB 4-car set is "reasonable" given its uncommonness and stated condition. Only you (the buyer) can determine if it's "reasonable" for you. If not, you either wait...or you move on.
richhotrainYou are missing the point made by me and Douglas. Your example of the train show is the equivalent of an eBay Buy It Now. The item isn't selling, so the seller is signalling that he is willing to accept less.
If the seller sets a beginning auction price I would expect the BIN price to be higher so that the seller can dispense with the auction if his expectation is met.
However, if no one wants the item either at the beginning auction price or the BIN price, why would he not possibly accept an offer?
The whole process sounds bass-ackwards to me---------------------but then I don't understand the krypton currency stuff either.
maxman If the seller sets a beginning auction price I would expect the BIN price to be higher so that the seller can dispense with the auction if his expectation is met.
maxmanHowever, if no one wants the item either at the beginning auction price or the BIN price, why would he not possibly accept an offer?
maxman The whole process sounds bass-ackwards to me
The whole process sounds bass-ackwards to me