Streamliner 09 Thanks Sheldon! All good points, and I understand exactly what you are conveying. After I "get my feet wet" in HO, I may break down and replace my "O" Gauge layout in the 24' x 12' room, but I haven't quite fully reached that stage as of yet. I first want to get a feel for the available equipment and sound systems in HO, and see if I can live without those meticulous actual recordings of steam and diesel locomotives created by the sound engineers for Lionel under the auspices of Neil Young's (Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young+) LionTech, or it's progeny. I'm sure the much larger speakers in many of the Lionel's also have an advantage over the necessarily smaller speakers in HO, but that's a trade-off I will likely have to learn to live with. As with many (if not most) endeavors in life, there are frequently trade-offs. Cordially, Dennis
Thanks Sheldon! All good points, and I understand exactly what you are conveying.
After I "get my feet wet" in HO, I may break down and replace my "O" Gauge layout in the 24' x 12' room, but I haven't quite fully reached that stage as of yet. I first want to get a feel for the available equipment and sound systems in HO, and see if I can live without those meticulous actual recordings of steam and diesel locomotives created by the sound engineers for Lionel under the auspices of Neil Young's (Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young+) LionTech, or it's progeny. I'm sure the much larger speakers in many of the Lionel's also have an advantage over the necessarily smaller speakers in HO, but that's a trade-off I will likely have to learn to live with.
As with many (if not most) endeavors in life, there are frequently trade-offs.
Cordially,
Dennis
Dennis, I wish you well on your adventure into HO.
And I do understand your goals and approach.
Mine is a bit different. I have no interest in sound, as a HiFi hobbiest as well, I simply find the sound quality offensive to my ears after about 5 minutes.
I am a bit old school HO in many ways, blended with selective use of recent advancements......
Take care,
Sheldon
wjstix Almost anything would be better than an 8' by 8' square layout. If it's two 4' by 8' sheets of plywood, putting them end to end (or in an L-shape) would be a better choice. Making 2' wide shelfs widened out at each end for loops to allow continous running would be even better... BTW with Kato Unitrack or Atlas True-Track, the gray part the track is attached to is meant to represent ballast. That is not the case with Bachmann E-Z track. It's subroadbed, taking the place of cork roadbed. You still need to add ballast when the track is in place, like when using flextrack or other types of track. https://www.deviantart.com/chandlertrainmaster1/art/NEW-Bachmann-HO-Scale-E-Z-Track-With-Concrete-Ties-900198031
Almost anything would be better than an 8' by 8' square layout. If it's two 4' by 8' sheets of plywood, putting them end to end (or in an L-shape) would be a better choice. Making 2' wide shelfs widened out at each end for loops to allow continous running would be even better...
BTW with Kato Unitrack or Atlas True-Track, the gray part the track is attached to is meant to represent ballast. That is not the case with Bachmann E-Z track. It's subroadbed, taking the place of cork roadbed. You still need to add ballast when the track is in place, like when using flextrack or other types of track.
https://www.deviantart.com/chandlertrainmaster1/art/NEW-Bachmann-HO-Scale-E-Z-Track-With-Concrete-Ties-900198031
Thanks wjstix!
I fully agree that an 8' x 8' table is not ideal -- not by any strech of the imagination -- but, that is the fully constructed table that is there, and, unfortunately, without moving some walls, or, doing some extensive carpentry, that is the "starter" base that I will have. That 8' x 8' table presently has part of my Standard Gauge layout on it. And, only Standard Gauge buildings and accessories are "out of reach". But, by design, once each of those items was put in its proper place by standing on a step stool, they have never been touched. Also, by design, all of the trackwork for that part of the SG layout is within easy arm's reach.
I plan to take that part of the Standard Gauge layout down, and replace it with HO trackwork that will also be within arm's reach. I will likely add some HO buildings and some other accessories farher back on the table, with each of those being accessible from one of the four sides, using a stool if necessary.
The trackwork will require little effort to lay down, and I plan to learn about HO powerbacks and, hopefully, DCC.
I'm starting to realize that the wiring for DCC is much like the "STAR" wiring necessary for MTH's DCS for "O" Gauge, which requires numerous feeder "power" wires at roughly 6' intervals. That alone seems to make Bachman's Easy Track unsuitable for DCC without extensive modifications.
Based on your excellent post, and the others above, I will have to explore Kato Unitrack or Atlas True-Track.
For my present purposes, I am making no attempt at realism, or scale detailing. I thoroughly enjoyed detailed scenery construction at the HO Club, but for now, I want something quick and reliable to learn about power, rolling stock, and locomotives. I'll hope to get more artistic in the future when I acquire some additional "right of way", and have learned far more about HO "equipment".
Finally, due to the timing of my OP, the ensuing weekend, and the well considered rule that new member's posts be reviewed, a number of my posts from the past 3 days have only been "populated" within the past few hours. They are interspersed throughout the thread at their intended original locations, since I did try to respond and thank everyone for their truly exceptional, thoughtful, and helpful suggestions.
Thanks again,
Almost anything would be better than an 8' by 8' square layout. If it's two 4' by 8' sheets of plywood, putting them end to end (or in an L-shape) would be a better choice. Making 2' wide shelfs widened out at each end for loops to allow continous running would be even better.
I would avoid 18" radius track and No. 4 turnouts. For years, 18" was the minimum HO radius, pretty much everything was designed to go around that tight a curve. In recent years, with improved scale fidelity, body mounted couplers, etc., 22"R has been becoming more and more common. Some large steam locomotives and passenger cars (like Walthers cars) need 24"R. Curves larger than that will certainly look better.
Thanks for all of the very well reasoned and helpful comments. I am, unfortunately, presently confined to the 8' X 8' space. I do hope to have a larger "Right of Way" next year some time, so I just want to consider this effort to be a learning experience, with some trial and error.
Since creating the OP, I have watched a number of videos on DCC, including decoders, and competing brands of decoders. Many of the suggestions above have helped with that effort.
Instead of an 8x8 table top, is there any possibility to do a 12" shelf around the room instead?
Hi Dennis, I am a "recovering O scaler", having been off the "big stuff" for 34 years.
One great thing about scaling down is, when you plan things, you'll find your mind still thinks in the larger scale. I'm still often pleasantly surprised that a building kit I made ended up being smaller than I pictured, leaving room for a more realistic surrounding...parking lot, loading area, sidewalks, etc.
Do be careful not to get too anxious to buy 'one of everything', since HO is so much cheaper it's easy to go a little nuts. Take it slow, and buy DCC-sound engines of high quality one at a time.
Bachmann track is OK, I tried several types of 'click track' when I switched to HO and decided Kato Unitrack was the best. The track is a narrow-profile code 83 so has a very realistic appearance. I paint some of the ties so they aren't all black, and use a product called Neo-Lube (from Micro-Mark) to paint the sides of the rails a flat dark gray. You can add a wash of black paint, water and a little alcohol to weather the ballast to make it look more realistic. But trains run very nicely on it, there's basically no electrical issues.
Streamliner 09 I currently have both "O" & Standard Gauge Layouts, and have lately rekindled my interest in HO trains. In the past, I have been a member of a very active HO Club, but HO sound systems for locomotives were in their infancy at that time. My membership in that very sophisticated HO club has satisfied my "scale modeling" gene, and, I will be perfectly happy at this time with an 8' X 8' tabletop layout using Bachman's "Easy Track"...blasphemy, I know!. In this regard, my main interests are in running the trains, and, creating a roster of attractive steam and diesel locomotives, together with rolling stock. I am not as interested in the very admirable pursuit of scale layout building. In recent days, I've visited a large retailer in the area that carries a wide variety of HO trains and equipment. I clearly need to learn more about HO sound systems -- to decode the plethora of options, if you will. I also need to learn which brands of locomotives and rolling stock tend to be the most detailed and reliable, although based on my experience with other gauges, I also understand that such a topic can be very subjective, and open to vigorous debate. Finally, I need to learn about options for powerpacks to power the layout. So, any suggestions as to how to effectively "dig in" to my "new" hobby would be appreciated. Cordially, Dennis P.S. For the past eight months, I have again subscribed to Model Railroader Magazine.
I currently have both "O" & Standard Gauge Layouts, and have lately rekindled my interest in HO trains. In the past, I have been a member of a very active HO Club, but HO sound systems for locomotives were in their infancy at that time.
My membership in that very sophisticated HO club has satisfied my "scale modeling" gene, and, I will be perfectly happy at this time with an 8' X 8' tabletop layout using Bachman's "Easy Track"...blasphemy, I know!. In this regard, my main interests are in running the trains, and, creating a roster of attractive steam and diesel locomotives, together with rolling stock. I am not as interested in the very admirable pursuit of scale layout building.
In recent days, I've visited a large retailer in the area that carries a wide variety of HO trains and equipment. I clearly need to learn more about HO sound systems -- to decode the plethora of options, if you will. I also need to learn which brands of locomotives and rolling stock tend to be the most detailed and reliable, although based on my experience with other gauges, I also understand that such a topic can be very subjective, and open to vigorous debate. Finally, I need to learn about options for powerpacks to power the layout.
So, any suggestions as to how to effectively "dig in" to my "new" hobby would be appreciated.
P.S. For the past eight months, I have again subscribed to Model Railroader Magazine.
About the engines, contrary to O, there are many manufacturers in HO. In steam, it's mostly Bachmann, BLI, Athearn, Hornby-Rivarossi and a few others. Unfortunately most have produced duds at some point in time. So I would recommend that you do a search when looking at a specific engine to see what folks are saying about it. I have a positive bias towards the Bachmann spectrum line (good quality for the price), but other manufacturers have done great engines as well. I still do my homework before buying any engine and do a search online for reviews, especially when buying brass.
Simon
jjdamnit Hello All, dstarr First thing you need to think about. You can only reach into a layout 24-30 inches. And you need to reach in, to fix track, fix scenery and rerail trains. Your 8 by 8 foot table is 96 inches across, which leaves something like 30 inches in the middle of the layout that you cannot reach. Excellent point! I was thinking about that same thing after I posted my response. For a walk-around pike, a better dimension would be 5'x9'. It gives a little more room than a 4'x8' which allows broader curves and you can reach into the center. Thank you for the additional thoughts. Hope this helps.
Hello All,
dstarr First thing you need to think about. You can only reach into a layout 24-30 inches. And you need to reach in, to fix track, fix scenery and rerail trains. Your 8 by 8 foot table is 96 inches across, which leaves something like 30 inches in the middle of the layout that you cannot reach.
Excellent point!
I was thinking about that same thing after I posted my response.
For a walk-around pike, a better dimension would be 5'x9'. It gives a little more room than a 4'x8' which allows broader curves and you can reach into the center.
Thank you for the additional thoughts.
Hope this helps.
Well, I suppose it depends on the look you are going for. The OP does not seem real concerned with scenery, but I built one layout that was partly "shelf" style, only 18" and 24" deep.
Never again, I was completely unhappy with the scenic appearance. While my new layout will keep most trackage closer to front, most scenes will be at least 3' deep or deeper for the dramatic effect.
Yes, it is old school, it looks better.
And, I will admit an interest in scenic modeling of features "outside" the railroad "right of way". It builds more imagery as to why the trains exist in the first place.
You know, cities, towns, farms, industries, homes, stores, fire stations, streets, etc - I need room to model this stuff too.
Just another reason why my layout space is "bigger" and my track plan goals simple.
At the corner where the roundhouse is, the scene is 11' deep.
I don't worry about access, I build the layout to support my weight, I have hatches and rear aisles where needed.
dstarrFirst thing you need to think about. You can only reach into a layout 24-30 inches. And you need to reach in, to fix track, fix scenery and rerail trains. Your 8 by 8 foot table is 96 inches across, which leaves something like 30 inches in the middle of the layout that you cannot reach.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Thanks Dan,
Initially, as with Dan, I also agree with virtually everthing that has been posted, including the posts following yours to the time of this posting.
Importantly, I also want to thank every Forum Member who has posted. Each of you has spent considerable time creating very well reasoned, detailed, and helpful comments, and, I'm most grateful for the time and effort that you have spent sharing your considerable expertise, and, your enthusiasm for the HO Hobby.
As for the HO Club I belonged to for about 6 years, the Club is building a 2,400 square foot "freelanced" layout, in a building owned by the Club. With one exception, the entire layout uses becnhwork that is fully accessible, and, within "arm's reach".
Among the several extremely talented HO hobbyists in the Club, one has built a layout that has been featured, within the past 5 years or so, as a "Cover Story" in Model Railroading Magazine, and, it is beyond exquisite. We have photographed some of the extensive sections of the Club layout that he has created, and, many of the photos look like photos taken in the real world.
As noted in the OP, I'm planning on again "getting my feet wet" in the HO Hobby. My present plan is to eventially just "sit back", and run trains, and, although layout construction is necessary, planning and creating a detailed layout is not presently a source of my satisfaction in the hobby.
For right now, I plan to grdually replace part of my Standard Gauge Layout with an HO layout - mostly to learn, and run trains.
Since my OP, I have watched several excellent videos on DCC, and am learning more about the myriad of suppliers and options in the HO realm -- far, far more sophisticated -- and complicated -- than when I was a member of the club.
Finally, we are planning to move within the next year or so, and, as I kiddingly tell my wife that, "It's because the basement is too small..."
Someone said EZ-track is limited to 26" radius. Bachmann has marketed 35.5" radius for some time, and it is commonly available.
Here's my take: The starter of this discussion (OP for Original Poster, if he doesnt know the term yet) knows the difference between highly detailed meticulous scale modeling and a more casual approach to just running some trains for entertainment.
I totally agree with everything that's been posted so far. My layout follows Sheldon's general guidelines as far as curve radii and such. I want to shoot for Doctor Wayne quality scenery on my 10x20 around the room layout.
My cousin (we're both in our 60s), recently revived a layout he built in the mid 80s using an Atlas (spaghetti bowl) track plan. His layout is 5x9, has passing tracks and crossover loops, looks kinda like an amusement park ride. And he knows it! And he thoroughly enjoys running his short trains at much higher than scale speeds through 18 and 22 inch radius curves. Realism isn't his concern.
I helped him get his trackwork and switches operating smoothly through long distance corrospondance, introduced him to Tortoise switch machines and Shinohara switches.That helped! Then he went on and successfully converted to DCC, something I dont think I'll ever have the patience for. He's a Techie.
I coached him on scenery until he got comfortable then took off developing his own techniques, keeping the detail on the simple but still pleasant side.
He's having a GREAT time with his 5x9 layout, happliy working within its limitations.
if that's the approach the OP wants to take, 8x8 is plenty of space. Dan
First thing you need to think about. You can only reach into a layout 24-30 inches. And you need to reach in, to fix track, fix scenery and rerail trains. Your 8 by 8 foot table is 96 inches across, which leaves something like 30 inches in the middle of the layout that you cannot reach.
Think about an around the walls layout that only needs to be 24 inches wide. Think about penisulas, with view blocks running down the center. You also want the largest radius curves you can fit into the train room. The bigger HO rolling stock, full length passenger cars, big steamers, long flat cars, all want 30 to 36 inch curves. Be aware that the snap track curves are all 18 inch. To obtain good broad curves you want flew track, comes in 36 inch lengths, is bendable, and gives a 36 inch run with no bumbs or bruises and perfect electrical connectivity. Good track laying will yield joints with no kinks, and good and flat, over which rolling stock will roll freely.
Rolling stock is cheapestly obtained used at train shows. Follow the 24 inch rule, if the rolling stock looks good at a 24 inch viewing distance, it's good. You want to weigh all your rolling stock up to the NMRA reccomendation of 1 oz plus another half ounce of weight per inch of car length. If you choose to model a real railroad you can buy rolling stock marked for that road. If you choose to model an maginary road, you will have to decal all you rolling stock with your imaginary road name. I run plain DC. The DCC systems allow running multiple trains on the same piece of rail. This is cool if you have multiple operators running. If it is just you, plain DC works fine. The DCC control modules can also do sound, although getting a decent amount of sound out of a speaker small enough to fit inside an HO locomotive is a trick.
Also, think about rivers which need be crossed on mighty bridges.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
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Streamliner 09I will be perfectly happy at this time with an 8' X 8' tabletop layout...
ATLANTIC CENTRALYou will get a wide range of opinions on this, but in my view and 8x8 layout will not provide much in the way of visual interest even for your stated goals.
Streamliner 09...my main interests are in running the trains, and, creating a roster of attractive steam and diesel locomotives, together with rolling stock.
An 8'x8' is a good starting point.
I have been limited to 4'x8' for my HO pike.
This is all "She Who Must Be Obeyed" has allowed me- -which sits on top of the bed in the computer/railroad/spare bedroom.
Streamliner 09...using Bachman's "Easy Track"
I recommend the Nickle-Silver rails with gray roadbed over the Steel-Alloy with black roadbed- -if you must use this type of track.
Nickle-Silver is a better conductor between feeders and is less prone to oxidation = less cleaning.
What might at first seem a plus- -using this type of track- -will soon highlight it's limitations.
This type of track is known as sectional track as opposed to flex track; which does not have a built-in roadbed.
Your radii choices with "Easy Track" are limited to 15-, 18-, 22-, 26-, 28-, 33.25- and 35.5-inch curves. Turnout selections are less of an issue.
The drawbacks of sectional "Easy Track" are further exacerbated over traditional sectional track (no built-in roadbed) or flex track: it is difficult to interface the different types.
Yes, it can be done but the drawbacks and headaches soon become apparent.
Another major drawback is the difficulty to add track feeders; recommended every other section of track for sectional or flex type no matter the control system.
Ideally, feeders are soldered to the field side (outside) of the track and not the gauge side (inside).
The difficulty of soldering feeders to the field side of Easy Track is you have to drill through the plastic roadbed and the sub-roadbed (base) to access the bus wires.
Streamliner 09...options for powerpacks to power the layout.
There are two primary systems to move trains over the tracks; Direct Current (DC) & Digital Command Control (DCC).
It has been said that with DC you control the track, with DCC you control the train(s).
As far as sound goes, you can have sound with DC, but again there are limitations and pitfalls.
There are a number of DCC systems available.
When choosing a DCC system, people that are associated with a club tend to choose the system the club uses.
This way you can run trains at home and on the club layout with minimal fuss.
Getting power to the track typically utilizes what is known as a bus.
These are two (2) wires that roughly follow the track underneath the sub-roadbed.
With DC this carries the direct current that powers the motor.
In DCC the bus carries both the current that powers the motors and the signal packets to the decoders that in turn control the power from the track to the motors.
Both control systems are in use today and you will get varying opinions on each system.
The choice is up to you.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Dennis, I fear that the one thing that will disappoint you is this: Unlike your O gauge trains, large HO models of famous and flashy steam locomotives require larger curves for good perfomance and appearance. You will get a wide range of opinions on this, but in my view and 8x8 layout will not provide much in the way of visual interest even for your stated goals. Big locos, modern freight cars or full length scale passenger cars require at least 30" radius for reliable operation, and 36" radius is better. Because these are more "scale" models, there are considerably less compromises made to allow them to operate on "toy" curves. Nothing wrong with what you want to do, just understand the limitations. Sheldon
Dennis, I fear that the one thing that will disappoint you is this:
Unlike your O gauge trains, large HO models of famous and flashy steam locomotives require larger curves for good perfomance and appearance.
You will get a wide range of opinions on this, but in my view and 8x8 layout will not provide much in the way of visual interest even for your stated goals.
Big locos, modern freight cars or full length scale passenger cars require at least 30" radius for reliable operation, and 36" radius is better.
Because these are more "scale" models, there are considerably less compromises made to allow them to operate on "toy" curves.
Nothing wrong with what you want to do, just understand the limitations.
When I first ventured into HO scale after spending my youth running S gauge American Flyer trains, I set up a layout on a 4 x 8 table to see if I would like HO scale. I convinced myself that HO scale was the way to go but just watching trains go round and round, I expanded to three 4 x 8 tables forming an 8 x 12 layout.
That was even more fun, but again my options were limited to walking around the perimeter of the layout with few trackwork options, at least for my taste. So, eventually, I built a bigger layout to accommodate more scenery and more interesting trackwork.
Rich
Alton Junction
Thanks Tin Can II, that's very helpful.
I presume BLI is Brodway Limited? I'll obviously need to learn more about DCS, and TCS WOW, and the relationships among the various "decoders" and Powerpacks. I noticed at the hobby shop that some of the Broadway limited locos had the sound system installed, as was true with some of the other HO manufacturers.
If you or any forum members have a good book, or books to recommend, that would also be great. Thanks again!
Dennis: Welcome aboard. So much of what you describe is subjective, but at the end of the day, it is your railroad, your fun, and your decision. There is no right or wrong decision. If you have a local hobby shop, see if you can demo different brands of the types of locomotives you want to run. Maybe you could do the same at the HO club you have described.
I am perfectly happy with the three BLI DCC sound-equipped steam locomotives that I have. I only have one factory equipped diesel; an Athearn Genesis F7; it is fine for my needs. I have sound installed in a brass steamer (TCS WOW sound; it is great) and I have several TCS WOW sound kits that need to be installed in various Athearn and Kato locomotives. My preference is for TCS decoders; WOW sound is an easy enough install that even I can do one.
Have fun, and let us know how you are progressing.