Well, since we are talking freight car prices now....
I have learned my lesson about opening new threads from thoughts posted in this thread.
The Fleet Of Nonsense is a well varied set of freight cars because this is my passion. I love the freight car fleet of mid-century. There is so much variety.
Scratchbuilt boxcar built from my scrap box, basically free:
Basic boxcar built from an Intermountain kit, $20.00:
Pullman PS-1 built from a Kadee kit, $30.00:
Unique boxcar built from a Funaro & Camerlengo kit, $45.00:
Unique boxcar built from a Yarmouth kit, $65.00:
Ribbed boxcar built from a Sunshine Kit, $100.00:
Pullman pre-war welded boxcar in brass from W&R, $125.00:
-All Photographs by Kevin Parson
Look at the pictures and you can see that basically all of these freight cars have the same level of detail. Freestanding ladders and grab irons. Brake rod detail when visible. Nice looking sill steps.
Yet, they range in price from "FREE" to $125.00 not including trucks and couplers (except on the Kadee PS-1).
Why would I spend $125.00 on a boxcar that is no better than a $30.00 boxcar?
Because, they all fit my desires. I desire a highly varied fleet of freight cars. It does not matter what they cost. I love the free one just as much as the brass oddity. It is my decision to buy what I want.
I consider all of these simply "freight cars", not "$30.00 freight cars" or "$100.00 freight cars", they are all the same once painted and decorated. All are equal. All bring me joy.
I need all of them for total satisfaction.
I feel the same way about my locomotives and cabooses. Price does not really matter.
Passenger cars... well those I can take or leave... I haven't seen one yet worth dropping a Jackson on.
BTW: Please don't post any comments about how the scratchbuilt boxcar isn't really scratchbuilt because I didn't forge my own hobby knife from a cannister damascus billet made of old fish hooks.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 gmpullman Yes, Kevin. I should have mentioned that. Thanks. And... in the new picture you posted, it looks a proper blue. Doughless My wife buys purses...and seems to never be satisfied with our current vaccum cleaner. That is too funny. I could have posted the exact word-for-word comment about my wife. Purses, purses, purses... none of them is ever "cute" enough. Vacuums... Dyson, Hoover, Black & Decker, none of them ever work right. I even bought her a Milwaukee M18 "workshop vacuum", and it was no good. -Kevin
gmpullman Yes, Kevin. I should have mentioned that.
Thanks.
And... in the new picture you posted, it looks a proper blue.
Doughless My wife buys purses...and seems to never be satisfied with our current vaccum cleaner.
That is too funny. I could have posted the exact word-for-word comment about my wife.
Purses, purses, purses... none of them is ever "cute" enough.
Vacuums... Dyson, Hoover, Black & Decker, none of them ever work right. I even bought her a Milwaukee M18 "workshop vacuum", and it was no good.
Inside the house, the Miele is the best so far, small, light, basic, powerful, easy to keep clean and working.
In the shop, on the jobs, I have had the best luck with "shopvac" brand. We usually bust them up before they stop vacuuming.
Sheldon
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL But here is the most important thing, they all look good and run fine, so I will not replace them just because someone new makes a "better" GP7. Sheldon Why not? Maybe what I'm about to discuss belongs over in Kevin's locked thread. My purchasing habits for just about anything involve getting new better stuff that replaces the older stuff. And the older stuff does not necessarily have to be worn out or broken. It doesn't need to be replaced. Its best to keep what you have and run it into the ground, but things like cars, clothes, electronics, shoes, etc. People get new stiuff all of the time, and the old stuff still fits, works, isn't worn out. If a new item serves a situation better than an existing item; I think its pretty common to replace old with the new. Now, a person might be fickle about it. Or trendy, just buying the new version because it is the new version, but most don't do that. I guess I do churn many things I own...not frequently, and less so if the churn is costly (like someone who trades in cars every 3 to 5 years). My wife buys purses...and seems to never be satisfied with our current vaccum cleaner, whichever one it is this year. And I wouldn't say this happens with trinket disposable things. In your profession; you probably see people throw out cabinets, refrigerators, trim work, just because they are remodling something...and the stuff isn't broken or worn out. We just sold our good old golf cart to buy a new one, because the new one has better seats and is faster. For me, model trains, which are just hobby stuff, don't involve a different approach than anything else I buy. And having said that, you have shown that you keep a lot things for a long time, not just trains, and take some pride in that. That's fine.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But here is the most important thing, they all look good and run fine, so I will not replace them just because someone new makes a "better" GP7. Sheldon
Why not?
Maybe what I'm about to discuss belongs over in Kevin's locked thread.
My purchasing habits for just about anything involve getting new better stuff that replaces the older stuff. And the older stuff does not necessarily have to be worn out or broken. It doesn't need to be replaced.
Its best to keep what you have and run it into the ground, but things like cars, clothes, electronics, shoes, etc. People get new stiuff all of the time, and the old stuff still fits, works, isn't worn out. If a new item serves a situation better than an existing item; I think its pretty common to replace old with the new.
Now, a person might be fickle about it. Or trendy, just buying the new version because it is the new version, but most don't do that.
I guess I do churn many things I own...not frequently, and less so if the churn is costly (like someone who trades in cars every 3 to 5 years).
My wife buys purses...and seems to never be satisfied with our current vaccum cleaner, whichever one it is this year.
And I wouldn't say this happens with trinket disposable things. In your profession; you probably see people throw out cabinets, refrigerators, trim work, just because they are remodling something...and the stuff isn't broken or worn out.
We just sold our good old golf cart to buy a new one, because the new one has better seats and is faster.
For me, model trains, which are just hobby stuff, don't involve a different approach than anything else I buy.
And having said that, you have shown that you keep a lot things for a long time, not just trains, and take some pride in that. That's fine.
Why not? Because it takes resourses away from other goals not yet reached.
I replace things when they are no longer serviceable.
I replace things when a new version REALLY does a better job and doing that task better will have impact.
When I buy a computer, I buy way more than I need, near the top of the technology so that it takes longer for it to become obsolete.
If my needs change I make adjustments. At the old house we only had about 3/4 acre of actual grass to cut but we had a pool - so I cut the grass and bagged all the clippings with this setup, it only had to be emptied twice to cut the whole lawn:
At the new house we have over two acres, no pool, less elaborate landscaping, way more trees. So I found one of these trailers for spring and fall cleanup, but I no longer bag clippings during regular mowing.
But yes, same tractor. Ther smart people who designed this machine set it up for both situations.
I understand how other people live, I don't want to afford that. I see it as wasteful.
But part of this question is what defines "better".
I don't need a "better" garden tractor, this one cost $8000 in 1996, it's really good, but more importantly it still does what I need done in an effective manner.
So what defines better with model trains?
Sound?, DCC?, more detail?, accuracy?
I have been over my thoughts on those topics.
Vacuum cleaners - in 45 years and two marrages, there have only been 5 of those things. One Kirby, one Electrolux, two Kenmores, and a Miele. But all of them were expensive.
Back to model trains - our modeling styles and interests are very different. I mean no disrepect to you or anyone, but the "less is more" approach leaves me cold.
So the realization that building a large layout is an extended commitment requires that some part of it will be a delayed gratifcation exercise, and replacing stuff before you even get things to a reasonable point of completeness just makes no sense.
This hobby is FULL of compromises - I choose the big layout, large curves, vast scenery, with the long trains, and the working signal system and the 30 trains hidden in staging tracks OVER squalky sound and perfect detail on every piece of equipment, DCC, etc.
So for MY GOALS, an Athearn blue box box car is in many cases "just as good".
And a Proto2000 GP7 will always be detailed enough, and in proper running order, run well enough.
I just have to ask, why do you own a golf cart?
gmpullmanYes, Kevin. I should have mentioned that.
DoughlessMy wife buys purses...and seems to never be satisfied with our current vaccum cleaner.
n012944 ATLANTIC CENTRAL But, in the era I model, the ALCO PA era, most of my diesel powered trains are pulled by anywhere from two to four powered units, so one might consider that a $400 to $800 locomotive as well. Sheldon Kind of a stretch there. A coal hopper costs $40. I run a train of 45 of them. I don't consider a hopper to now cost $1800. Nor should anyone else.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But, in the era I model, the ALCO PA era, most of my diesel powered trains are pulled by anywhere from two to four powered units, so one might consider that a $400 to $800 locomotive as well. Sheldon
But, in the era I model, the ALCO PA era, most of my diesel powered trains are pulled by anywhere from two to four powered units, so one might consider that a $400 to $800 locomotive as well.
Kind of a stretch there. A coal hopper costs $40. I run a train of 45 of them. I don't consider a hopper to now cost $1800. Nor should anyone else.
Not apples to apples.
If I pull one 45 car train with one $600 steam loco, and I pull another 45 car train with three $200 diesels, then the motive power cost per train is the same.
That was my only point.
In actual practice on previous layouts, a 45 car train might be pulled by two Spectrum USRA Mountains given the 2% grades, locos I paid $100 each for.
And a similar train with diesel power might be powered with a 4 unit set of Proto2000 ALCO FA1/FB1 locos that I paid $89 per A/B set.
The rolling stock - many of them have more $ in trucks and couplers than the rest of the car since most of my fleet rides on Kadee sprung trucks that have been refitted with Intermountain wheelsets, even simple Athearn Blue Box cars with a little weathering. But only a small percentage of my rolling stock represents an investment of $40 each. But then again I have been developing the fleet for about 50 years now.
An "expensive model collector"
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut here is the most important thing, they all look good and run fine, so I will not replace them just because someone new makes a "better" GP7. Sheldon
- Douglas
SeeYou190Ed: I lost track of this discusssion a while back. Is NKP 186 one of the new Rapido models?
Yes, Kevin. I should have mentioned that.
NKP_186_after-brake-color by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
maxman ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm very happy with my whole loco roster - dollar cost average price, about $125.00 Is that the dollar cost average of purchases over 20/30 years, or what it would cost to obtain similar locos currently?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm very happy with my whole loco roster - dollar cost average price, about $125.00
Is that the dollar cost average of purchases over 20/30 years, or what it would cost to obtain similar locos currently?
Over about 30 years, a mix of steam and diesel. Most were purchased at what were very good prices at the time, while others were "typical" street prices at the time.
So there are some that I paid $200, $300 for, and others that only cost $50 when $100 would have been the typical price for that piece.
I bought three Spectrum 2-6-6-2's for $75 each, at a time when $150 was a deal.
But I also paid $250 each for two BLI/PCM Reading 4-8-4's when they offered "Stealth" versions - DC.
I have lots of early Proto diesels, Intermountain and Genesis F units, Spectrum, BLI, Rivarossi steam, just to name some.
It is 1954 here, these are the companies that made the prototypes I am interested in.
But here is the most important thing, they all look good and run fine, so I will not replace them just because someone new makes a "better" GP7.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI'm very happy with my whole loco roster - dollar cost average price, about $125.00
gmpullmanAfter a little surgery this morning my brake cylinders are properly parallel to the rail:
Ed: I lost track of this discusssion a while back. Is NKP 186 one of the new Rapido models?
On my monitor it looks gray and white.
Sheldon--
Certainly you make some valid points.
For me it is a case of value or perceived value of a model versus cost (current street price point).
I can forgive minor shortcomings of an older body shell like the Walthers/Proto PA-1 because they make certain to provide a great deal of VALUE for the price that they charge. The newest runs perform superbly well on the layout, and look pretty good--good enough for the price point. The shortcomings in the body, so far as I am aware, are relatively minor, except perhaps not for NH fans.
Put differently, other manufacturers are not making the accuracy claims of Rapido's advertising but yet are delivering new models which are factually more accurate representations of the prototype they represent. I'm choosing to spend my money there.
Since I'm an admittedly expensive model collector, for the significantly greater expense, I want things to be "right" for that higher price point. I have less tolerance for errors as the price increases.
Rapido's price on these things is such that I can find factory painted brass models, some of which I know will run well, and even if they don't, I know how to tune them to make them run well, that will be just as good. I'm comfortable working on Overland/Ajin units...was taught by now deceased friend how to tune them.
John
After a little surgery this morning my brake cylinders are properly parallel to the rail:
NKP_186_after-brake fix by Edmund, on Flickr
Now I know how an orthopedic surgeon feels when they re-set a bone. I grabbed the cylinder itself with non-serrated pliers and gave them a twist. This cracked the bond but maintained the pin in the socket.
NKP_186_after-brake-B by Edmund, on Flickr
A light application of liquid cement (Green-cap Tamiya) and they were set in place.
To reassure the OP, I'm still happy...
Cheers, Ed
richhotrain I am glad that my steam locomotive shopping days are over. Rich
I am glad that my steam locomotive shopping days are over.
Rich
I'm very happy with my whole loco roster - dollar cost average price, about $125.00
PRR8259 Regarding Rapido PA's, I've now read and seen enough photos illustrating issues with them that I'm glad I didn't order multiples of any. I'll try the one that is ordered, and not lose any sleep over the ones that got away, because it clearly is a model that has some issues, more for some roads than for others, and is not the be-all end-all PA model some were hoping for. It just is not. In this day and age of 3D scans and high quality 3D drafting, it is just sad that Rapido seemingly produces so many models that get mostly but not all the way finished, that in some areas settle too easily for just good enough. Their couplers are horrible and do not play well with other rolling stock but are difficult to uncouple. The first thing I do is throw Rapido's couplers away and substitute real Kadee couplers. The other manufacturers are doing a better job of getting the details right. John
Regarding Rapido PA's, I've now read and seen enough photos illustrating issues with them that I'm glad I didn't order multiples of any. I'll try the one that is ordered, and not lose any sleep over the ones that got away, because it clearly is a model that has some issues, more for some roads than for others, and is not the be-all end-all PA model some were hoping for. It just is not.
In this day and age of 3D scans and high quality 3D drafting, it is just sad that Rapido seemingly produces so many models that get mostly but not all the way finished, that in some areas settle too easily for just good enough. Their couplers are horrible and do not play well with other rolling stock but are difficult to uncouple. The first thing I do is throw Rapido's couplers away and substitute real Kadee couplers.
The other manufacturers are doing a better job of getting the details right.
John, I just can't get deep in the weeds over all this "accuracy" stuff. The Rapido loco looks like a PA, my three Protos look like PA's.
That said, comparing the two, like Ed did above, it is easy to see the good and bad aspects of both models. In a lot of ways the 30 year old one holds up pretty well.
This endless quest for "more accuracy" is something that would suck the fun right out of this hobby for me - it almost did 35 years ago.
I have been known to be a bit of a parts hoarder. Something breaks, the part is available - I buy two.
Back to accuracy for a minute - I want my trains to look like the real thing, BUT, they are little 1/87 models that I spend more time viewing from 4-8 feet than from 18".
It is about "impression" not perfection.
So, 40 cars pulled by three GP7's around broad curves thru sweeping scenery gives a realistic impression compared 12 cars behind one GP7 on 22" radius.
If they run good and look good, I'm fine with a few incorrect details. I'm even fine with "stand-ins" with the right proportions and lettering.
Do I like my carefully done Spring Mills Depot B&O models? Wagon top hoppers and cabooses - sure.
Do all 150 locomotives, 175 passenger cars, and 1,000 freight cars on the layout need to be models of that detail level? NO!
My dad, who is gone now, would abolutely agree with your $600 disposable loco comment. When he traded in his worn out Lionel trains on my first HO train set (he actually did use them enough to have nearly worn them all out) his reasoning then was that in HO, if it breaks and you can't get parts, you just junk it or put it on a layout "deadline". Mr. English put the trade in Lionel trains into his collection where they stayed until he passed away at age 93.
I agree we are moving in that direction. Perhaps some time away, but I actually have taken some rolling stock that was broken or damaged imo beyond repair, and chucked it in the garbage. I once dropped an Atlas Reading C-424 on the concrete floor, and it was instant junk.
Most buyers put them in the closet roundhouse for the layout they someday hope to build, which is why so many nos or nearly nos locos show up on Ebay.
If a newer version of a model is available when something breaks it can be easy to just buy a replacement chassis and put your favorite loco body on it.
Even though these are expensive model toys, they still are toys, and when things break and are not repairable I strip parts and junk the rest.
My post above was alluding to the fact that some locos cannot and will not be rerun, at least not until someone else tools a newer better version of it.
I am not faulting any company for not having parts a year or two after models enter the country. I understand you can't have parts for everything, and holy cow, just the number of parts on the average Athearn Genesis GP-7 or -9 is incredible. I don't expect them to stock all the parts for all the roads, beyond a year or so like the warranty says.
I have contacted others for parts recently, and they had nada, zilch, zero parts for some recently made engines. I found a way to execute repairs on my own (allegedly nos model bought off ebay).
One reason I tend to buy multiple units is that assuming I really like a model, I figure some will get damaged and others will survive for a long time.
n012944 ATLANTIC CENTRAL n012944 Why are we talking about $600 dollar locomotives? Exaggerating for effect? The locomotive that this thread had started off about, before the thread got derailed by people that have no interest in buying it because it doesn't come undecorated, retailed for $335 if you wanted DCC/sound. Those that model the "OLD WAY" as another thread put it, will pay $225 retail for the silent version. Again, that is retail prices, I am sure you will find it cheaper at the usual spots, though selection may be limited. Inflation is running crazy, but good grief. Have you looked at the prices of steam locomotives these days? I guess maybe they are outside your interests? Rapido Hudson - $749.00 Rapido 4-6-0 - $599.00 BLI Challenger - $699.00 BLI PRR K4 - $549.00 BLI UP FEF - $699.00 And the list goes on.... Sheldon Oh, my bad, I thought this thread was about Rapido PAs.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL n012944 Why are we talking about $600 dollar locomotives? Exaggerating for effect? The locomotive that this thread had started off about, before the thread got derailed by people that have no interest in buying it because it doesn't come undecorated, retailed for $335 if you wanted DCC/sound. Those that model the "OLD WAY" as another thread put it, will pay $225 retail for the silent version. Again, that is retail prices, I am sure you will find it cheaper at the usual spots, though selection may be limited. Inflation is running crazy, but good grief. Have you looked at the prices of steam locomotives these days? I guess maybe they are outside your interests? Rapido Hudson - $749.00 Rapido 4-6-0 - $599.00 BLI Challenger - $699.00 BLI PRR K4 - $549.00 BLI UP FEF - $699.00 And the list goes on.... Sheldon
n012944 Why are we talking about $600 dollar locomotives? Exaggerating for effect? The locomotive that this thread had started off about, before the thread got derailed by people that have no interest in buying it because it doesn't come undecorated, retailed for $335 if you wanted DCC/sound. Those that model the "OLD WAY" as another thread put it, will pay $225 retail for the silent version. Again, that is retail prices, I am sure you will find it cheaper at the usual spots, though selection may be limited. Inflation is running crazy, but good grief.
Why are we talking about $600 dollar locomotives? Exaggerating for effect? The locomotive that this thread had started off about, before the thread got derailed by people that have no interest in buying it because it doesn't come undecorated, retailed for $335 if you wanted DCC/sound. Those that model the "OLD WAY" as another thread put it, will pay $225 retail for the silent version. Again, that is retail prices, I am sure you will find it cheaper at the usual spots, though selection may be limited.
Inflation is running crazy, but good grief.
Have you looked at the prices of steam locomotives these days?
I guess maybe they are outside your interests?
Rapido Hudson - $749.00
Rapido 4-6-0 - $599.00
BLI Challenger - $699.00
BLI PRR K4 - $549.00
BLI UP FEF - $699.00
And the list goes on....
Oh, my bad, I thought this thread was about Rapido PAs.
Well, the thread has touched on a lot of issues related to the production and delivery of the Rapido PA and current locos in general.
Alton Junction
BATMAN ATLANTIC CENTRAL What happens when they break? Frustrating as it is I have decided that when buying a $600.00 loco you now need to factor in the additional cost of sending it in for repairs. It cost me about $25.00 in postage to send a loco back to Rapido which is not much at all in the grand scheme of things. Anything I have sent back has run flawlessly once I got it back. So that $600.00 loco is now a $650.00 loco if you send it in twice, but that is the cost of doing business and whether or not you can afford it is up to you. We bought a Toyota AWD Hylander Hybrid a year ago and it is awesome, but I would not even know where to start if I had to fix it. I have always been able to fix my own vehicles until now. So I factor repairs into the cost of owning the Hylander or I drive an old beater that I can fix myself.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL What happens when they break?
Frustrating as it is I have decided that when buying a $600.00 loco you now need to factor in the additional cost of sending it in for repairs. It cost me about $25.00 in postage to send a loco back to Rapido which is not much at all in the grand scheme of things. Anything I have sent back has run flawlessly once I got it back.
So that $600.00 loco is now a $650.00 loco if you send it in twice, but that is the cost of doing business and whether or not you can afford it is up to you.
We bought a Toyota AWD Hylander Hybrid a year ago and it is awesome, but I would not even know where to start if I had to fix it. I have always been able to fix my own vehicles until now. So I factor repairs into the cost of owning the Hylander or I drive an old beater that I can fix myself.
I'm not as concerned about problems when it is relatively new as I am about problems 4, or 6, or 10 years down the road.
I have a lot of Bachmann locos, and had to sent a few back, always with a very good outcome.
My experiance with Broadway just buying parts has not been so good, forget any expectation of warranty consideration.
I have never had any problems with any other brand that justified returning a loco.
But I did get a very large quantity of free Proto replacement geared axles from LifeLike (pre Walthers) to fix any cracked gears.
And I bought lots of detail replacement parts from both Bachmann and LifeLIke for kit bashing, etc.
But with the prospect of not being able to service these things long term, I don't see many, if any, $600 locomotives in my future.
I have four Boswer RS-3's on preorder, $200 each in DC. That might bre about my limit from here on out.
Cars, I once worked in that business, sold MATCO TOOLS for most of a decade, and built lots of hot rods, every nut and bolt. But not these days - buy them new, have them serviced at the dealer where the mechanics are trained on those cars, and my experiances have generally been good.
No corner mechanic can keep up with all this stuff today. When I worked in service management in dealerships, even I had to go to BMW school, or Buick school.....
maxman ATLANTIC CENTRAL What happens when they break? .... In my opinion, we are moving dangerously toward a disposable mentality for $600 locomotives. I don't like $600 locos either. But I don't quite understand the "if they break" comment. I think the ability to find replacmentor items for things that break or have gone missing disappeared just about the time that Irv Athearn passed.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL What happens when they break? .... In my opinion, we are moving dangerously toward a disposable mentality for $600 locomotives.
....
In my opinion, we are moving dangerously toward a disposable mentality for $600 locomotives.
I don't like $600 locos either. But I don't quite understand the "if they break" comment.
I think the ability to find replacmentor items for things that break or have gone missing disappeared just about the time that Irv Athearn passed.
Not in my experiance. Long after Irv was gone I have bought, or received free replacement parts from lots of companies, Bachmann, Intermountain, Athearn, Walthers, LifeLike, and more.
But it does seem to be changing.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat happens when they break?
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat happens when they break? .... In my opinion, we are moving dangerously toward a disposable mentality for $600 locomotives.
John, I understand, no offense or sense of ill will here.
These are the pitfalls of subcontract manufacturing a half a world away.
And I am not being critical of those who highly prefer all this higher end, very proto specific RTR models.
But questions come to mind.
What happens when they break?
When will a next generation of modelers come along and want locomotive "X"?
In my opinion, we are moving dangerously toward a disposable mentality for $600 locomotives. That would exclude me for future purchases. Not because I don't have another $600, but because I find it morally and economically untenable.
My general objection to the current state of the hobby can be summed up in this example.
It would be near impossible to go on whatever retail web sites this afternoon and by a B&O E8 set, and and a ten car set of matching passenger cars.
Maybe I'm a little too OCD, or just too fussy, but if I was relatively new to this hobby, the above fact would be discouraging and off putting.
I hate "the hunt", I just want to go to the store, virtual or brick and mortar, and buy what I want.
Hi Sheldon--
Please note I am not trying to be argumentative with you. These posts never accurately convey tone, so please understand that I am not purposefully directing anything at you. Please do not read my posts that way. It is merely a discussion, nothing more.
The part I deleted to save space (and because it is too far away from this topic) kinda goes a little bit toward your idea of "investing in future sales".
Things being what they are, I have asked about and been informed that one diesel that a manufacturer would actually prefer to re-release most likely can never be released again. In my opinion there likely will be a few others in the same boat at other manufacturers.
The reason is that at least one factory in China closed for certain, and also another factory decided to limit themselves to only producing freight cars in the future. So I have been informed that when tooling is moved from one factory in China to another factory, the importer here cannot be 100% sure that they got all the tooling transferred without losing any of it. Obviously, they did the best they could but we are half a world away. This potentially affects several manufacturer/importers as various factories may work with more than one importer.
So to rerun any model, even to make samples of a new product run, it takes factory setup time to be able to make all the parts. If in the process you find that some tooling is missing, then it costs thousands to replace the missing tooling. Just even setting up to run sample models costs thousands of dollars of factory time even if you have 100% of the tooling. In one specific case the manufacturer does not believe there are enough remaining sales out there of one diesel to cover the factory setup time and replacement of any missing tooling. They said they want to make it, but may not ever be able to do so. Instead they are literally focusing on other diesels not offered before in HO plastic for which the sales potential now and future is significantly higher.
So the whole point of this story is that a hobbyist has to make the most informed decision they can about whatever model it is that they want to have. There are models from the past that simply will not ever be rerun again, not even as undecorated kits for people to assemble.
I understand that teaching people to assemble models trains them for a lifetime of hobby enjoyment. Increasingly locos will be offered fully factory finished in most paint schemes the prototype ever had, which obviously cuts into any would-be sales of undecorated models.
I still don't have a Rapido PA-1 in my hands here to be able to offer any comments, and it will be a few days until I do.
n012944 It is interesting, as I have only seen two reviews of the model from people that have them in hand, and both are favorable. It is being torn to shreds on another site, based on pictures of it, by people who state they would never buy from Rapido in the 1st place. So take that with a grain of salt. Maybe those would like it more if it was built the "OLD WAY". I am sure it will be a fine expensive toy built by others.
It is interesting, as I have only seen two reviews of the model from people that have them in hand, and both are favorable. It is being torn to shreds on another site, based on pictures of it, by people who state they would never buy from Rapido in the 1st place. So take that with a grain of salt. Maybe those would like it more if it was built the "OLD WAY".
I am sure it will be a fine expensive toy built by others.
I think it is a nice looking model, and was willing to buy a few.
Who knows, maybe Kevin and I were the only people who ordered undecorated versions.....
I don't read any other sites....... spending much less time here as well. It takes away from model building time.
PRR8259 ATLANTIC CENTRAL OR, The retailers simply decide not to order them? Sheldon Oh, I missed this comment previously and would like to respond: (I am not authorized to speak on behalf of any manufacturer so should keep names out of this.) Some manufacturers would be fine with selling undecorated models. They'd sell anything they could to make an honest profit. One major issue for them is that the factories in China do NOT want to offer undecorated models. Specifically they do not want their people having to count out, double check count, and package all the parts for an undecorated model. They do not want to write up instructions. Even the undecorated freight cars coming in from some manufacturers can come without any instructions at all--and the prospective kit builder had better know the prototype well to know where parts go. They cannot be packaged the same way as a decorated model, so separate packaging must be designed. All of that has a cost associated with it. Also--regarding the idea of only making enough to cover orders--the last time that one manufacturer offered undecorated locos they only ever received about 40 orders. That's all there ever were. Minimum quantity established by factory to do them was 100. So are you saying the manufacturer should produce undecorated diesel locos at a net loss? In the factual real world example I am citing, the manufacturer decided to make the 100 (minimum order as established with factory) undecorated diesels anyway, perhaps as a form of "customer service", but nevertheless, they were made. Cost was amortized over the entire product run, so economically speaking, it became a "hidden cost" at that point. There is really no good way of assessing what the actual cost of an undecorated loco was when the cost was spread out over the entire product run. The financial terms with these factories can be one price for the entire run, without itemizing individual items. They couldn't give the other 60 undecorated models away and subsequently joked about that quite openly. Other people have criticized when I've made reference to this example before: Saying the manufacturer didn't offer the "right" version of the diesel that they wanted to buy in undecorated. OR the manufacturer offered all prototypical paint schemes ever worn by these diesels as factory painted, so "of course" nobody would want any undecs. (The product runs after the undecorated offering completed the full line of paint schemes, so it was a spurious, after the fact argument.) Fine, the issue is when offered the undecorateds just did not sell. Lots of folks have talked about minimum build quantities. The minimum build quantity on a brand new diesel model is approximately 50 units of each unique item number, but other roadnames of the same run should be much more numerous.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL OR, The retailers simply decide not to order them? Sheldon
OR,
The retailers simply decide not to order them?
Oh, I missed this comment previously and would like to respond:
(I am not authorized to speak on behalf of any manufacturer so should keep names out of this.)
Some manufacturers would be fine with selling undecorated models. They'd sell anything they could to make an honest profit.
One major issue for them is that the factories in China do NOT want to offer undecorated models. Specifically they do not want their people having to count out, double check count, and package all the parts for an undecorated model. They do not want to write up instructions. Even the undecorated freight cars coming in from some manufacturers can come without any instructions at all--and the prospective kit builder had better know the prototype well to know where parts go. They cannot be packaged the same way as a decorated model, so separate packaging must be designed. All of that has a cost associated with it.
Also--regarding the idea of only making enough to cover orders--the last time that one manufacturer offered undecorated locos they only ever received about 40 orders. That's all there ever were. Minimum quantity established by factory to do them was 100. So are you saying the manufacturer should produce undecorated diesel locos at a net loss?
In the factual real world example I am citing, the manufacturer decided to make the 100 (minimum order as established with factory) undecorated diesels anyway, perhaps as a form of "customer service", but nevertheless, they were made. Cost was amortized over the entire product run, so economically speaking, it became a "hidden cost" at that point. There is really no good way of assessing what the actual cost of an undecorated loco was when the cost was spread out over the entire product run. The financial terms with these factories can be one price for the entire run, without itemizing individual items.
They couldn't give the other 60 undecorated models away and subsequently joked about that quite openly.
Other people have criticized when I've made reference to this example before: Saying the manufacturer didn't offer the "right" version of the diesel that they wanted to buy in undecorated. OR the manufacturer offered all prototypical paint schemes ever worn by these diesels as factory painted, so "of course" nobody would want any undecs. (The product runs after the undecorated offering completed the full line of paint schemes, so it was a spurious, after the fact argument.) Fine, the issue is when offered the undecorateds just did not sell.
Lots of folks have talked about minimum build quantities. The minimum build quantity on a brand new diesel model is approximately 50 units of each unique item number, but other roadnames of the same run should be much more numerous.
John, I understand the economics and logistics, and I'm not interested in debating that again.
As a consumer, I'm only interested in buying the things I want.
It is a sad day that these companies can no longer invest in future sales like they did in the past.
I had a somewhat longer reply started, but what's the point?