We had a thread on these a few weeks ago.
How? They were not actually out then.
Now they are, and will be physically in people's hands within a day or so.
That other thread was more about the "sample" models and photos of same.
I'm trying to discern whether or not I want to try just one unit, based upon people's comments here. As I do not have any ordered right now, but am moving my whole roster back to the first generation era (bought bunch of RS-3's), hearing ahem reading people's comments would be useful to me.
PRR8259How? They were not actually out then.
I don't think we actually had a thread about the PA models after they were in customer's hands.
I am also interested in how the model is. I really wanted a pair of them, but it was not to be. Thus, for me, this thread is about what I missed.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
PRR8259 Have to ask the questions: New Rapido PA-1 owners, are you happy with your new acquisitions? Do they meet your expectations? How well do they run for you?
Have to ask the questions: New Rapido PA-1 owners, are you happy with your new acquisitions? Do they meet your expectations? How well do they run for you?
Looking at opinions for different things, I find that there are usually a certain percentage of buyers who are happy with the product. And also there may usually be a sometimes very small percentage of buyers who think the item is a piece of crap.
And for whatever reason this small percentage of individuals seem to be the most vociferous.
About as happy as a man who just sold a kidney to pay for a PA-PA set can be...
Charles
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Modeling the Santa Fe & Pennsylvania in HO
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLb3FRqukolAtnD1khrb6lQ
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
Hmmm, I ordered a set but haven't heard a peep that they were out yet.
Texas Zephyr Hmmm, I ordered a set but haven't heard a peep that they were out yet.
Same here!
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
I assure you they are out now. English's Model RR Supply has a bunch of them, and I looked at a couple today, but they did not happen to have the one roadname that I am interested in.
John
I forgot that I'd ordered a pair of Nickel Plate "Bluebirds". Just got a reminder to send bags of cash to Overland Hobbies in order to free mine from captivity.
I'll post photos in a few days...
They'll be replacing my venerable Life-Like models.
Nickel Plate Depart-Arrive by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
I received a couple of emails and a phone call from Rapido regarding the two I preordered (Leigh Valley). I robbed the local bank and sent them the money. Waiting for them or the cops to arrive. Hopefully it's the loco's before the popo's so I can enjoy the fruits of my labor for a little while.
So, after looking quickly a couple youtube videos of these, I have a question for those who have them or who have seen them up close. Is there any factory provision for close coupling and do the diaphragms work?
If the answer is no, I'm not disappointed that my order for undecorated versions was canceled.
While they do look nice, without that feature they are not that much nicer than my Proto units.
Sheldon
Interesting. My main sources for trains; M. B. Klein's, Midwest Model RR Supply, and Spring Creek Model Trians don't list them this morning.
I have a really hard time convincing myself to buy one at the price point that is mentioned. I get a lot of enjoyment in updating my old purchases; I can spend time and effort detailing and tuning my Walthers and Blue Box units and be very happy.
FlattenedQuarterWaiting for them or the cops to arrive. Hopefully it's the loco's before the popo's so I can enjoy the fruits of my labor for a little while.
I hope they arrive soon for you.
Unfortunately, these were all pre-order items. So anyone expecting to walk into a retail store and finding their favorite flavor on the shelf may be out of luck. Or at least until the units hit the resale market.
I checked the website of the distributor where I have an account and many of the flavors are shown as unavailable. Since they also required pre-orders, unavailable means they never got pre-orders in the first place, or what they received already went out the door.
Well, some people do not necessarily trust Rapido for various reasons beyond the scope of my post here, so that is why there aren't very many that were not already spoken for.
My local dealer is trying to get a unit or two for me, as I did not pre-order any myself.
As of Wednesday afternoon 8/24 distributor Heartland had not yet received their shipment, and I have no idea how many were even still available for sale of what they had pre-ordered, so it is what it is. If I don't get one then so be it.
My main focus is freight trains anyway, so it's not a have to have for me. I just always liked PA's.
There were a whole lot of Rapido boxes coming off the truck at PWRS the other day. They tend to stock a lot of Rapido stuff from what I have seen in the past there.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Well... I just went to the Rapido site, and it seems the GLA hoppers were released already, and are all sold out.
I had two pre-ordered through an online retailer, and never heard a word about them.
PRR8259 Well, some people do not necessarily trust Rapido for various reasons beyond the scope of my post here, so that is why there aren't very many that were not already spoken for. My local dealer is trying to get a unit or two for me, as I did not pre-order any myself. As of Wednesday afternoon 8/24 distributor Heartland had not yet received their shipment, and I have no idea how many were even still available for sale of what they had pre-ordered, so it is what it is. If I don't get one then so be it. My main focus is freight trains anyway, so it's not a have to have for me. I just always liked PA's. John
Rapido has let me down a few too many times. In my experience, they overpromise and underdeliver. As an example I wanted to get their SW1200s. But then in the last week of preorders, they subly removed the ditch lights, the marker lights, and a few cab details. Well shoot, why pay Rapido prices when I can get a walthers proto sw1200 for $120 less? Just my two cents. Take it as you will.
JJF
Prototypically modeling the Great Northern in Minnesota with just a hint of freelancing.
Yesterday is History.
Tomorrow is a Mystery.
But today is a Gift, that is why it is called the Present.
SeeYou190 Well... I just went to the Rapido site, and it seems the GLA hoppers were released already, and are all sold out. I had two pre-ordered through an online retailer, and never heard a word about them. -Kevin
When I preordered my Rapido F30 flat cars, I had an interesting experiance. For whatever reason, EVERYONE had their decorated versions of the F30 flats a week before my undecorated F30's were shipped to me. I ordered and purchased them from a large well known retailer/mail order outlet here in the Mid Atlantic.
As the layout space is progressing and benchwork is about to begin, I am also getting my workbench in working order. As I revisit models previously built, and those still to be built, I become less and less interested in purchasing much more expensive RTR.
I guess I almost have enough trains.....
Rapido has passed the point of deminishing return, and has yet to make a model I want that is completely missing from my roster.
Lombard still has some in stock.
An "expensive model collector"
n012944Lombard still has some in stock.
I went and looked, and they do not list the undecorated model.
The place I ordered them from does not list the undecorated model either.
I would bet that Rapido cancelled the undecorated GLA hoppers. Since I did not order them directly from Rapido, I guess I never got a notice.
That is what I get for bargain shopping.
Thank you for sharing the tip.
A pair of mine arrived today —
NKP_181_Rapido by Edmund, on Flickr
Nothing was broken or loose in the shipping process save for one rear coupler that seems to be jammed open.
A note on the couplers, these are Rapido's own "old Macdonald" couplers. [Macdonald-Cartier] They are pretty much worthless. Some reviews I've read, even in MR, for the recent Rapido cars and locos refer to them as being Kadee. They are NOT Kadee.
NKP_181_Rapido-1 by Edmund, on Flickr
Minus one point for the headlight LED configuration. IMHO the color leans too much to the "cool-blue" side and not a decent "yellow-white" or golden glow color. In addition there seems to be an arrangement of the lens that kind of makes the headlight and Mars light "shadowy" rather than seeing the full brightness of the lamp. The Mars light is set for a very slow oscillation. I'm sure that can be fixed in a CV setting. The number boards are nicely lit but perhaps just a tad bright. I'll probably fix this by placing a small piece of masking tape behind the board which is a method I use to tone down the brightness and give the boards more of a yellowish glow.
NKP_181_Rapido-Proto by Edmund, on Flickr
NKP_181_Rapido-Proto-rear by Edmund, on Flickr
Out of the box the Rapidos couple slightly closer than the Proto 2000s. I'm sure Kadee short-shank couplers could be substituted. I will change out all the couplers anyway and might try a short shank for evaluation.
NKP_181_Rapido-Proto-rear-1 by Edmund, on Flickr
Yes, most of the brake cylinders are slightly askew. This was even pointed out when the sample photos were shown. I will have to take a look at what it will take to tweak these back into proper position.
NKP_181_Rapido-paint line by Edmund, on Flickr
There is a slight oops where the painting mask didn't quite fit up properly so the paint separation is a little fuzzy and there's a little overspray around the door jamb.
I have not run them as yet. That will be later tonight. The default sound settings have the wrong horn, no biggie, and, of course, is considerably too loud. Both easily fixed.
NKP_PE6 by Edmund, on Flickr
I'm nearly always happy. I'm a glass half-full kind of person.
Cheers, Ed
SeeYou190 n012944 Lombard still has some in stock. I went and looked, and they do not list the undecorated model. The place I ordered them from does not list the undecorated model either. I would bet that Rapido cancelled the undecorated GLA hoppers. Since I did not order them directly from Rapido, I guess I never got a notice. That is what I get for bargain shopping. Thank you for sharing the tip. -Kevin
n012944 Lombard still has some in stock.
The Rapido web site shows undecorated GLa hoppers, and shows them as "out of stock" - the question is did they really make any?
This hobby has changed considerably in the time I have been in it, and I don't see all of it as good.
Just happy that I have much of what I need and want to build my upcoming layout, which, like my garden tractor, I expect will last me the rest of my life.
I have tried to be a Rapido customer, with little success.
My Bowser GLa hoppers are just fine....
My Proto PA's are close coupled like this:
With this simple kit which has been offered for the Proto PA and E7 units for over 2 decades.
And my front couplers are like this and work fine.
There is no question that the Rapido PA is more detailed and more road specific correct. But my interest in PA's is only for the roadname pictured above.
I had a set of undecorated PA's on preorder as soon as they were announced, Rapido decided they could not make any money selling me those locomotives.
So I bought two more NOS Protos on Ebay.
And Ed, your Proto unit is missing the coupler lift bar it came with, note my picture from the bottom.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe question is did they really make any?
If they did, I'll bet it was just enough to satisfy their pre-orders directly from Rapido.
I placed my pre-order from an online retailer that everyone said gave good service. They only charged my credit card for 0.02 for the reservation.
Oh well, it's not like I am hurting for open top hopper cars. If I really want a GLA I think Funaro and Camerlengo makes a kit.
When it comes to PAs, I just bought two NOS undecorated A shells and two NOS undecorated B shells on eBay, all from Athearn. I have an A/B powered Athearn set that has served me well. It looks like I will have plenty of chances to paint and detail updgraded bodies for them.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL The question is did they really make any? If they did, I'll bet it was just enough to satisfy their pre-orders directly from Rapido. I placed my pre-order from an online retailer that everyone said gave good service. They only charged my credit card for 0.02 for the reservation. Oh well, it's not like I am hurting for open top hopper cars. If I really want a GLA I think Funaro and Camerlengo makes a kit. - - - - - - - - - - When it comes to PAs, I just bought two NOS undecorated A shells and two NOS undecorated B shells in eBay. I have an A/B powered Athearn set that has served me well. It looks like I will have plenty of chances topaint and detail updgraded bodies for them. -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The question is did they really make any?
When it comes to PAs, I just bought two NOS undecorated A shells and two NOS undecorated B shells in eBay. I have an A/B powered Athearn set that has served me well. It looks like I will have plenty of chances topaint and detail updgraded bodies for them.
Already had three Proto PA's and one PB which I powered years ago (the early releases only offered unpowered B units).
When Rapido canceled the undec units, I found several more Protos on Ebay and now have parts for two AB sets and a AA set.
And I bought spare axle sets, and other spare parts from LifeLike years ago when they were just 40 minutes from my house.
The Roster is now full in the PA department.
You make a good point there. If they see undecorated models as such a money loosing, extra trouble, issue, it would make sense to only produce those orders that they are making the full markup on as long as it is enough units for reasonable production deviation same as a separate roadname.
OR,
The retailers simply decide not to order them?
A Proto PA rear shot with all the parts.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd Ed, your Proto unit is missing the coupler lift bar it came with, note my picture from the bottom. Sheldon
Thanks for pointing that out, Sheldon. I had every intention of mentioning that fact but got involved with the other captions and also had other obligations away from the internet which precluded me from further editing.
These older PAs were actually on my "to-do" shelf for lubing and other upgrades and I knew I was going to be opening them up so thought there was no reason to replace the cut lever since I'd be removing it again soon to remove the shell.
NKP_187_Cut lever1 by Edmund, on Flickr
The trailing unit has faired better.
NKP_187_Cut lever by Edmund, on Flickr
Fact of the matter is, the horns are missing as well:
NKP_187_Missing Horns by Edmund, on Flickr
In later years the Leslie A-200 was replaced by a Nathan M-5 (reference my photo at PE Tower in an earlier reply) and I was in the process of performing this modification
I should have mentioned it.
Thanks, Ed
No worries, I just wanted others to be aware ofthe close coupling kit.
The Rapido units look very nice, but I don't model any roads that actually had them.
Only ATLANTIC CENTRAL, B&O, C&O and WESTERN MARYLAND here. That is enough to try and do a fair job at modeling locomotive wise.
I don't have any real gripe about the trend toward RTR high detail models, I have my share.
But:
I am not motivated to replace models I have always been happy with.
I have no interest in DCC or onboard sound.
I still like building models including the freelance/protolance thing.
I have new Bowser RS-3's on preorder - WM and C&O.
But honestly, there are only about 5 or 10 more locos that I have any need or interest in aquiring.
Sheldon--
I have 5 new Bowser RS-3's here, and although I may be biased due to once working for them 30 years ago, they are fantastic, and I think you will be happy when yours arrive.
My local train store owner friend is trying to get me just 1 Rapido PA-1. Most PA-1 units of most road names were spoken for before the last distributor (to my knowledge) received their container just a couple days ago.
PRR8259 Sheldon-- I have 5 new Bowser RS-3's here, and although I may be biased due to once working for them 30 years ago, they are fantastic, and I think you will be happy when yours arrive. My local train store owner friend is trying to get me just 1 Rapido PA-1. Most PA-1 units of most road names were spoken for before the last distributor (to my knowledge) received their container just a couple days ago.
I have the two C&O numbers and the two WM Fireball numbers on preorder in DC. They will round out my rosters for those two roads nicely
The WM units are exactly correct for my era, the C&O units close enough (they were delived some months after my Steptember 1954 "setting"). SAee I don't loose sleep over little things like that.
After that, I would like to find a nice WM Pacific.
I am sure the Bowser RS units will be to my liking, I have seen their work.
I like PA's, that why the ATLANTIC CENTRAL has them, but I have no use for them in any of the road names that actually had them.
I was trying to get back to topic not in any way insinuating that you should buy any decorated PA's that don't fit your railroad's theme.
PRR8259 Sheldon-- I was trying to get back to topic not in any way insinuating that you should buy any decorated PA's that don't fit your railroad's theme.
Well, ok, that's fine.
As I pointed out Rapido once again missed their chance to get my money, Bowser will get it instead - all of it since they are ordered thru their outlet.......
As this hobby becomes more and more about buying expensive toys built by others, I become more determined to maintain those aspects of the "old ways" I enjoy.
Rapido and others have past the point of diminishing returns in my opinion. Bachmann has pulled back from the excessive detail market as prices push ever higher. Athearn and Bowser seem to have a good balance of cost vs detail. Broadway still thinks sound is more important than even basic model accuracy in some cases.
Again, I'm just happy I have nearly all the trains I want and need for my new layout.
And I don't have any emotional need to trade them on on something newer or "better".
There is a saying in construction - the enemy of "good" is "better".
And in carpentry - it is not perfection, it is the illusion of perfection.
Getting back to the original topic, who has gotten the Rapido PA and what do you think of them.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
ATLANTIC CENTRAL OR, The retailers simply decide not to order them? Sheldon
Oh, I missed this comment previously and would like to respond:
(I am not authorized to speak on behalf of any manufacturer so should keep names out of this.)
Some manufacturers would be fine with selling undecorated models. They'd sell anything they could to make an honest profit.
One major issue for them is that the factories in China do NOT want to offer undecorated models. Specifically they do not want their people having to count out, double check count, and package all the parts for an undecorated model. They do not want to write up instructions. Even the undecorated freight cars coming in from some manufacturers can come without any instructions at all--and the prospective kit builder had better know the prototype well to know where parts go. They cannot be packaged the same way as a decorated model, so separate packaging must be designed. All of that has a cost associated with it.
Also--regarding the idea of only making enough to cover orders--the last time that one manufacturer offered undecorated locos they only ever received about 40 orders. That's all there ever were. Minimum quantity established by factory to do them was 100. So are you saying the manufacturer should produce undecorated diesel locos at a net loss?
In the factual real world example I am citing, the manufacturer decided to make the 100 (minimum order as established with factory) undecorated diesels anyway, perhaps as a form of "customer service", but nevertheless, they were made. Cost was amortized over the entire product run, so economically speaking, it became a "hidden cost" at that point. There is really no good way of assessing what the actual cost of an undecorated loco was when the cost was spread out over the entire product run. The financial terms with these factories can be one price for the entire run, without itemizing individual items.
They couldn't give the other 60 undecorated models away and subsequently joked about that quite openly.
Other people have criticized when I've made reference to this example before: Saying the manufacturer didn't offer the "right" version of the diesel that they wanted to buy in undecorated. OR the manufacturer offered all prototypical paint schemes ever worn by these diesels as factory painted, so "of course" nobody would want any undecs. (The product runs after the undecorated offering completed the full line of paint schemes, so it was a spurious, after the fact argument.) Fine, the issue is when offered the undecorateds just did not sell.
Lots of folks have talked about minimum build quantities. The minimum build quantity on a brand new diesel model is approximately 50 units of each unique item number, but other roadnames of the same run should be much more numerous.
PRR8259Even the undecorated freight cars coming in from Tangent and some other manufacturers often come without any instructions at all--and the prospective kit builder had better know the prototype well to know where parts go.
John,
Do you have or have you actually assembled a Tangent undecorated kit? I have one of their steel bay window caboose kits and Tangent provides VERY detailed assembly instructions for that and ALL their undecorated kits on their website for download.
The NYC bay caboose instructions are 39 pages in length and contain a plethora of helpful photos to aid the modeler in assembling that specific car. Having written detailed work instructions as part of my job, I can greatly appreciate the time & effort taken by Tangent to put something like that together for its customers. They have also done a fine job of organizing the various pieces/parts in separate numbered bags to aid in the assembly process. Either they did that themselves...or had the folks in China do that for them.
The above makes purchasing an undecorated Tangent kit well-worth the price - to me. And, apparently, the undecorated NYC cab caboose kits were popular because there are NO more available on the Tangent website. The fully-assembled, painted & detailed NYC cabooses were gone in a very short time after their release in early Sep '21. I was delighted to nab two of them directly from Tangent before they disappeared. They are gorgeous!
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Hi Tom--
I believe on another forum someone stated they received a covered hopper kit with no instructions at all. I thought he stated it was Tangent's. It is possible that it could have been Exactrail's?
Just in case, I have updated my post above to remove Tangent's name.
My apologies and thank you for the update.
Back to the Rapido Alco PA/PBs. I have not yet received my Santa Fe PA/PB-1 pair; I will comment on it once I have it in my hands. However, several eBay dealers posted pics, and as Ed (gmpullman) had pointed out, Rapido did not correct the brake cylinder issue (the cylinders are not arranged horizontally as would be prototypical, but they follow the upper curve of the truck). Considering the price of these units and that Rapido was aware of this issue, I find this truly disappointing.
In a previous thread about the Alco PAs, a poster had referred to a planned run of these engines in brass by Division Point. Well, more recently DP released pics of their UP #80/8080 Coal Turbine 3 unit set. The #80 unit is essentially an Alco PA-1, and it is a georgeous model.
However, my brass dealer contact (www.railmodel.com) is nor very optimistic that DP will come out with the PAs in the foreseeable future. Reservation numbers were just too low.
It is interesting, as I have only seen two reviews of the model from people that have them in hand, and both are favorable. It is being torn to shreds on another site, based on pictures of it, by people who state they would never buy from Rapido in the 1st place. So take that with a grain of salt. Maybe those would like it more if it was built the "OLD WAY".
I am sure it will be a fine expensive toy built by others.
PRR8259 ATLANTIC CENTRAL OR, The retailers simply decide not to order them? Sheldon Oh, I missed this comment previously and would like to respond: (I am not authorized to speak on behalf of any manufacturer so should keep names out of this.) Some manufacturers would be fine with selling undecorated models. They'd sell anything they could to make an honest profit. One major issue for them is that the factories in China do NOT want to offer undecorated models. Specifically they do not want their people having to count out, double check count, and package all the parts for an undecorated model. They do not want to write up instructions. Even the undecorated freight cars coming in from some manufacturers can come without any instructions at all--and the prospective kit builder had better know the prototype well to know where parts go. They cannot be packaged the same way as a decorated model, so separate packaging must be designed. All of that has a cost associated with it. Also--regarding the idea of only making enough to cover orders--the last time that one manufacturer offered undecorated locos they only ever received about 40 orders. That's all there ever were. Minimum quantity established by factory to do them was 100. So are you saying the manufacturer should produce undecorated diesel locos at a net loss? In the factual real world example I am citing, the manufacturer decided to make the 100 (minimum order as established with factory) undecorated diesels anyway, perhaps as a form of "customer service", but nevertheless, they were made. Cost was amortized over the entire product run, so economically speaking, it became a "hidden cost" at that point. There is really no good way of assessing what the actual cost of an undecorated loco was when the cost was spread out over the entire product run. The financial terms with these factories can be one price for the entire run, without itemizing individual items. They couldn't give the other 60 undecorated models away and subsequently joked about that quite openly. Other people have criticized when I've made reference to this example before: Saying the manufacturer didn't offer the "right" version of the diesel that they wanted to buy in undecorated. OR the manufacturer offered all prototypical paint schemes ever worn by these diesels as factory painted, so "of course" nobody would want any undecs. (The product runs after the undecorated offering completed the full line of paint schemes, so it was a spurious, after the fact argument.) Fine, the issue is when offered the undecorateds just did not sell. Lots of folks have talked about minimum build quantities. The minimum build quantity on a brand new diesel model is approximately 50 units of each unique item number, but other roadnames of the same run should be much more numerous.
John, I understand the economics and logistics, and I'm not interested in debating that again.
As a consumer, I'm only interested in buying the things I want.
It is a sad day that these companies can no longer invest in future sales like they did in the past.
I had a somewhat longer reply started, but what's the point?
n012944 It is interesting, as I have only seen two reviews of the model from people that have them in hand, and both are favorable. It is being torn to shreds on another site, based on pictures of it, by people who state they would never buy from Rapido in the 1st place. So take that with a grain of salt. Maybe those would like it more if it was built the "OLD WAY". I am sure it will be a fine expensive toy built by others.
I think it is a nice looking model, and was willing to buy a few.
Who knows, maybe Kevin and I were the only people who ordered undecorated versions.....
I don't read any other sites....... spending much less time here as well. It takes away from model building time.
Hi Sheldon--
Please note I am not trying to be argumentative with you. These posts never accurately convey tone, so please understand that I am not purposefully directing anything at you. Please do not read my posts that way. It is merely a discussion, nothing more.
The part I deleted to save space (and because it is too far away from this topic) kinda goes a little bit toward your idea of "investing in future sales".
Things being what they are, I have asked about and been informed that one diesel that a manufacturer would actually prefer to re-release most likely can never be released again. In my opinion there likely will be a few others in the same boat at other manufacturers.
The reason is that at least one factory in China closed for certain, and also another factory decided to limit themselves to only producing freight cars in the future. So I have been informed that when tooling is moved from one factory in China to another factory, the importer here cannot be 100% sure that they got all the tooling transferred without losing any of it. Obviously, they did the best they could but we are half a world away. This potentially affects several manufacturer/importers as various factories may work with more than one importer.
So to rerun any model, even to make samples of a new product run, it takes factory setup time to be able to make all the parts. If in the process you find that some tooling is missing, then it costs thousands to replace the missing tooling. Just even setting up to run sample models costs thousands of dollars of factory time even if you have 100% of the tooling. In one specific case the manufacturer does not believe there are enough remaining sales out there of one diesel to cover the factory setup time and replacement of any missing tooling. They said they want to make it, but may not ever be able to do so. Instead they are literally focusing on other diesels not offered before in HO plastic for which the sales potential now and future is significantly higher.
So the whole point of this story is that a hobbyist has to make the most informed decision they can about whatever model it is that they want to have. There are models from the past that simply will not ever be rerun again, not even as undecorated kits for people to assemble.
I understand that teaching people to assemble models trains them for a lifetime of hobby enjoyment. Increasingly locos will be offered fully factory finished in most paint schemes the prototype ever had, which obviously cuts into any would-be sales of undecorated models.
I still don't have a Rapido PA-1 in my hands here to be able to offer any comments, and it will be a few days until I do.
John, I understand, no offense or sense of ill will here.
These are the pitfalls of subcontract manufacturing a half a world away.
And I am not being critical of those who highly prefer all this higher end, very proto specific RTR models.
But questions come to mind.
What happens when they break?
When will a next generation of modelers come along and want locomotive "X"?
In my opinion, we are moving dangerously toward a disposable mentality for $600 locomotives. That would exclude me for future purchases. Not because I don't have another $600, but because I find it morally and economically untenable.
My general objection to the current state of the hobby can be summed up in this example.
It would be near impossible to go on whatever retail web sites this afternoon and by a B&O E8 set, and and a ten car set of matching passenger cars.
Maybe I'm a little too OCD, or just too fussy, but if I was relatively new to this hobby, the above fact would be discouraging and off putting.
I hate "the hunt", I just want to go to the store, virtual or brick and mortar, and buy what I want.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat happens when they break? .... In my opinion, we are moving dangerously toward a disposable mentality for $600 locomotives.
....
In my opinion, we are moving dangerously toward a disposable mentality for $600 locomotives.
I don't like $600 locos either. But I don't quite understand the "if they break" comment.
I think the ability to find replacmentor items for things that break or have gone missing disappeared just about the time that Irv Athearn passed.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat happens when they break?
Frustrating as it is I have decided that when buying a $600.00 loco you now need to factor in the additional cost of sending it in for repairs. It cost me about $25.00 in postage to send a loco back to Rapido which is not much at all in the grand scheme of things. Anything I have sent back has run flawlessly once I got it back.
So that $600.00 loco is now a $650.00 loco if you send it in twice, but that is the cost of doing business and whether or not you can afford it is up to you.
We bought a Toyota AWD Hylander Hybrid a year ago and it is awesome, but I would not even know where to start if I had to fix it. I have always been able to fix my own vehicles until now. So I factor repairs into the cost of owning the Hylander or I drive an old beater that I can fix myself.
maxman ATLANTIC CENTRAL What happens when they break? .... In my opinion, we are moving dangerously toward a disposable mentality for $600 locomotives. I don't like $600 locos either. But I don't quite understand the "if they break" comment. I think the ability to find replacmentor items for things that break or have gone missing disappeared just about the time that Irv Athearn passed.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL What happens when they break? .... In my opinion, we are moving dangerously toward a disposable mentality for $600 locomotives.
Not in my experiance. Long after Irv was gone I have bought, or received free replacement parts from lots of companies, Bachmann, Intermountain, Athearn, Walthers, LifeLike, and more.
But it does seem to be changing.
BATMAN ATLANTIC CENTRAL What happens when they break? Frustrating as it is I have decided that when buying a $600.00 loco you now need to factor in the additional cost of sending it in for repairs. It cost me about $25.00 in postage to send a loco back to Rapido which is not much at all in the grand scheme of things. Anything I have sent back has run flawlessly once I got it back. So that $600.00 loco is now a $650.00 loco if you send it in twice, but that is the cost of doing business and whether or not you can afford it is up to you. We bought a Toyota AWD Hylander Hybrid a year ago and it is awesome, but I would not even know where to start if I had to fix it. I have always been able to fix my own vehicles until now. So I factor repairs into the cost of owning the Hylander or I drive an old beater that I can fix myself.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL What happens when they break?
I'm not as concerned about problems when it is relatively new as I am about problems 4, or 6, or 10 years down the road.
I have a lot of Bachmann locos, and had to sent a few back, always with a very good outcome.
My experiance with Broadway just buying parts has not been so good, forget any expectation of warranty consideration.
I have never had any problems with any other brand that justified returning a loco.
But I did get a very large quantity of free Proto replacement geared axles from LifeLike (pre Walthers) to fix any cracked gears.
And I bought lots of detail replacement parts from both Bachmann and LifeLIke for kit bashing, etc.
But with the prospect of not being able to service these things long term, I don't see many, if any, $600 locomotives in my future.
I have four Boswer RS-3's on preorder, $200 each in DC. That might bre about my limit from here on out.
Cars, I once worked in that business, sold MATCO TOOLS for most of a decade, and built lots of hot rods, every nut and bolt. But not these days - buy them new, have them serviced at the dealer where the mechanics are trained on those cars, and my experiances have generally been good.
No corner mechanic can keep up with all this stuff today. When I worked in service management in dealerships, even I had to go to BMW school, or Buick school.....
Why are we talking about $600 dollar locomotives? Exaggerating for effect? The locomotive that this thread had started off about, before the thread got derailed by people that have no interest in buying it because it doesn't come undecorated, retailed for $335 if you wanted DCC/sound. Those that model the "OLD WAY" as another thread put it, will pay $225 retail for the silent version. Again, that is retail prices, I am sure you will find it cheaper at the usual spots, though selection may be limited.
Inflation is running crazy, but good grief.
n012944 Why are we talking about $600 dollar locomotives? Exaggerating for effect? The locomotive that this thread had started off about, before the thread got derailed by people that have no interest in buying it because it doesn't come undecorated, retailed for $335 if you wanted DCC/sound. Those that model the "OLD WAY" as another thread put it, will pay $225 retail for the silent version. Again, that is retail prices, I am sure you will find it cheaper at the usual spots, though selection may be limited. Inflation is running crazy, but good grief.
Have you looked at the prices of steam locomotives these days?
I guess maybe they are outside your interests?
Rapido Hudson - $749.00
Rapido 4-6-0 - $599.00
BLI Challenger - $699.00
BLI PRR K4 - $549.00
BLI UP FEF - $699.00
And the list goes on....
I am glad that my steam locomotive shopping days are over.
Rich
Alton Junction
ATLANTIC CENTRAL n012944 Why are we talking about $600 dollar locomotives? Exaggerating for effect? The locomotive that this thread had started off about, before the thread got derailed by people that have no interest in buying it because it doesn't come undecorated, retailed for $335 if you wanted DCC/sound. Those that model the "OLD WAY" as another thread put it, will pay $225 retail for the silent version. Again, that is retail prices, I am sure you will find it cheaper at the usual spots, though selection may be limited. Inflation is running crazy, but good grief. Have you looked at the prices of steam locomotives these days? I guess maybe they are outside your interests? Rapido Hudson - $749.00 Rapido 4-6-0 - $599.00 BLI Challenger - $699.00 BLI PRR K4 - $549.00 BLI UP FEF - $699.00 And the list goes on.... Sheldon
Oh, my bad, I thought this thread was about Rapido PAs.
n012944 ATLANTIC CENTRAL n012944 Why are we talking about $600 dollar locomotives? Exaggerating for effect? The locomotive that this thread had started off about, before the thread got derailed by people that have no interest in buying it because it doesn't come undecorated, retailed for $335 if you wanted DCC/sound. Those that model the "OLD WAY" as another thread put it, will pay $225 retail for the silent version. Again, that is retail prices, I am sure you will find it cheaper at the usual spots, though selection may be limited. Inflation is running crazy, but good grief. Have you looked at the prices of steam locomotives these days? I guess maybe they are outside your interests? Rapido Hudson - $749.00 Rapido 4-6-0 - $599.00 BLI Challenger - $699.00 BLI PRR K4 - $549.00 BLI UP FEF - $699.00 And the list goes on.... Sheldon Oh, my bad, I thought this thread was about Rapido PAs.
Well, the thread has touched on a lot of issues related to the production and delivery of the Rapido PA and current locos in general.
But, in the era I model, the ALCO PA era, most of my diesel powered trains are pulled by anywhere from two to four powered units, so one might consider that a $400 to $800 locomotive as well.
My dad, who is gone now, would abolutely agree with your $600 disposable loco comment. When he traded in his worn out Lionel trains on my first HO train set (he actually did use them enough to have nearly worn them all out) his reasoning then was that in HO, if it breaks and you can't get parts, you just junk it or put it on a layout "deadline". Mr. English put the trade in Lionel trains into his collection where they stayed until he passed away at age 93.
I agree we are moving in that direction. Perhaps some time away, but I actually have taken some rolling stock that was broken or damaged imo beyond repair, and chucked it in the garbage. I once dropped an Atlas Reading C-424 on the concrete floor, and it was instant junk.
Most buyers put them in the closet roundhouse for the layout they someday hope to build, which is why so many nos or nearly nos locos show up on Ebay.
If a newer version of a model is available when something breaks it can be easy to just buy a replacement chassis and put your favorite loco body on it.
Even though these are expensive model toys, they still are toys, and when things break and are not repairable I strip parts and junk the rest.
My post above was alluding to the fact that some locos cannot and will not be rerun, at least not until someone else tools a newer better version of it.
I am not faulting any company for not having parts a year or two after models enter the country. I understand you can't have parts for everything, and holy cow, just the number of parts on the average Athearn Genesis GP-7 or -9 is incredible. I don't expect them to stock all the parts for all the roads, beyond a year or so like the warranty says.
I have contacted others for parts recently, and they had nada, zilch, zero parts for some recently made engines. I found a way to execute repairs on my own (allegedly nos model bought off ebay).
One reason I tend to buy multiple units is that assuming I really like a model, I figure some will get damaged and others will survive for a long time.
Regarding Rapido PA's, I've now read and seen enough photos illustrating issues with them that I'm glad I didn't order multiples of any. I'll try the one that is ordered, and not lose any sleep over the ones that got away, because it clearly is a model that has some issues, more for some roads than for others, and is not the be-all end-all PA model some were hoping for. It just is not.
In this day and age of 3D scans and high quality 3D drafting, it is just sad that Rapido seemingly produces so many models that get mostly but not all the way finished, that in some areas settle too easily for just good enough. Their couplers are horrible and do not play well with other rolling stock but are difficult to uncouple. The first thing I do is throw Rapido's couplers away and substitute real Kadee couplers.
The other manufacturers are doing a better job of getting the details right.
PRR8259 Regarding Rapido PA's, I've now read and seen enough photos illustrating issues with them that I'm glad I didn't order multiples of any. I'll try the one that is ordered, and not lose any sleep over the ones that got away, because it clearly is a model that has some issues, more for some roads than for others, and is not the be-all end-all PA model some were hoping for. It just is not. In this day and age of 3D scans and high quality 3D drafting, it is just sad that Rapido seemingly produces so many models that get mostly but not all the way finished, that in some areas settle too easily for just good enough. Their couplers are horrible and do not play well with other rolling stock but are difficult to uncouple. The first thing I do is throw Rapido's couplers away and substitute real Kadee couplers. The other manufacturers are doing a better job of getting the details right. John
John, I just can't get deep in the weeds over all this "accuracy" stuff. The Rapido loco looks like a PA, my three Protos look like PA's.
That said, comparing the two, like Ed did above, it is easy to see the good and bad aspects of both models. In a lot of ways the 30 year old one holds up pretty well.
This endless quest for "more accuracy" is something that would suck the fun right out of this hobby for me - it almost did 35 years ago.
I have been known to be a bit of a parts hoarder. Something breaks, the part is available - I buy two.
Back to accuracy for a minute - I want my trains to look like the real thing, BUT, they are little 1/87 models that I spend more time viewing from 4-8 feet than from 18".
It is about "impression" not perfection.
So, 40 cars pulled by three GP7's around broad curves thru sweeping scenery gives a realistic impression compared 12 cars behind one GP7 on 22" radius.
If they run good and look good, I'm fine with a few incorrect details. I'm even fine with "stand-ins" with the right proportions and lettering.
Do I like my carefully done Spring Mills Depot B&O models? Wagon top hoppers and cabooses - sure.
Do all 150 locomotives, 175 passenger cars, and 1,000 freight cars on the layout need to be models of that detail level? NO!
richhotrain I am glad that my steam locomotive shopping days are over. Rich
I'm very happy with my whole loco roster - dollar cost average price, about $125.00
After a little surgery this morning my brake cylinders are properly parallel to the rail:
NKP_186_after-brake fix by Edmund, on Flickr
Now I know how an orthopedic surgeon feels when they re-set a bone. I grabbed the cylinder itself with non-serrated pliers and gave them a twist. This cracked the bond but maintained the pin in the socket.
NKP_186_after-brake-B by Edmund, on Flickr
A light application of liquid cement (Green-cap Tamiya) and they were set in place.
To reassure the OP, I'm still happy...
Certainly you make some valid points.
For me it is a case of value or perceived value of a model versus cost (current street price point).
I can forgive minor shortcomings of an older body shell like the Walthers/Proto PA-1 because they make certain to provide a great deal of VALUE for the price that they charge. The newest runs perform superbly well on the layout, and look pretty good--good enough for the price point. The shortcomings in the body, so far as I am aware, are relatively minor, except perhaps not for NH fans.
Put differently, other manufacturers are not making the accuracy claims of Rapido's advertising but yet are delivering new models which are factually more accurate representations of the prototype they represent. I'm choosing to spend my money there.
Since I'm an admittedly expensive model collector, for the significantly greater expense, I want things to be "right" for that higher price point. I have less tolerance for errors as the price increases.
Rapido's price on these things is such that I can find factory painted brass models, some of which I know will run well, and even if they don't, I know how to tune them to make them run well, that will be just as good. I'm comfortable working on Overland/Ajin units...was taught by now deceased friend how to tune them.
gmpullmanAfter a little surgery this morning my brake cylinders are properly parallel to the rail:
Ed: I lost track of this discusssion a while back. Is NKP 186 one of the new Rapido models?
On my monitor it looks gray and white.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI'm very happy with my whole loco roster - dollar cost average price, about $125.00
Is that the dollar cost average of purchases over 20/30 years, or what it would cost to obtain similar locos currently?
maxman ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm very happy with my whole loco roster - dollar cost average price, about $125.00 Is that the dollar cost average of purchases over 20/30 years, or what it would cost to obtain similar locos currently?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm very happy with my whole loco roster - dollar cost average price, about $125.00
Over about 30 years, a mix of steam and diesel. Most were purchased at what were very good prices at the time, while others were "typical" street prices at the time.
So there are some that I paid $200, $300 for, and others that only cost $50 when $100 would have been the typical price for that piece.
I bought three Spectrum 2-6-6-2's for $75 each, at a time when $150 was a deal.
But I also paid $250 each for two BLI/PCM Reading 4-8-4's when they offered "Stealth" versions - DC.
I have lots of early Proto diesels, Intermountain and Genesis F units, Spectrum, BLI, Rivarossi steam, just to name some.
It is 1954 here, these are the companies that made the prototypes I am interested in.
But here is the most important thing, they all look good and run fine, so I will not replace them just because someone new makes a "better" GP7.
SeeYou190Ed: I lost track of this discusssion a while back. Is NKP 186 one of the new Rapido models?
Yes, Kevin. I should have mentioned that.
NKP_186_after-brake-color by Edmund, on Flickr
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut here is the most important thing, they all look good and run fine, so I will not replace them just because someone new makes a "better" GP7. Sheldon
Why not?
Maybe what I'm about to discuss belongs over in Kevin's locked thread.
My purchasing habits for just about anything involve getting new better stuff that replaces the older stuff. And the older stuff does not necessarily have to be worn out or broken. It doesn't need to be replaced.
Its best to keep what you have and run it into the ground, but things like cars, clothes, electronics, shoes, etc. People get new stiuff all of the time, and the old stuff still fits, works, isn't worn out. If a new item serves a situation better than an existing item; I think its pretty common to replace old with the new.
Now, a person might be fickle about it. Or trendy, just buying the new version because it is the new version, but most don't do that.
I guess I do churn many things I own...not frequently, and less so if the churn is costly (like someone who trades in cars every 3 to 5 years).
My wife buys purses...and seems to never be satisfied with our current vaccum cleaner, whichever one it is this year.
And I wouldn't say this happens with trinket disposable things. In your profession; you probably see people throw out cabinets, refrigerators, trim work, just because they are remodling something...and the stuff isn't broken or worn out.
We just sold our good old golf cart to buy a new one, because the new one has better seats and is faster.
For me, model trains, which are just hobby stuff, don't involve a different approach than anything else I buy.
And having said that, you have shown that you keep a lot things for a long time, not just trains, and take some pride in that. That's fine.
- Douglas
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But, in the era I model, the ALCO PA era, most of my diesel powered trains are pulled by anywhere from two to four powered units, so one might consider that a $400 to $800 locomotive as well. Sheldon
Kind of a stretch there. A coal hopper costs $40. I run a train of 45 of them. I don't consider a hopper to now cost $1800. Nor should anyone else.
n012944 ATLANTIC CENTRAL But, in the era I model, the ALCO PA era, most of my diesel powered trains are pulled by anywhere from two to four powered units, so one might consider that a $400 to $800 locomotive as well. Sheldon Kind of a stretch there. A coal hopper costs $40. I run a train of 45 of them. I don't consider a hopper to now cost $1800. Nor should anyone else.
Not apples to apples.
If I pull one 45 car train with one $600 steam loco, and I pull another 45 car train with three $200 diesels, then the motive power cost per train is the same.
That was my only point.
In actual practice on previous layouts, a 45 car train might be pulled by two Spectrum USRA Mountains given the 2% grades, locos I paid $100 each for.
And a similar train with diesel power might be powered with a 4 unit set of Proto2000 ALCO FA1/FB1 locos that I paid $89 per A/B set.
The rolling stock - many of them have more $ in trucks and couplers than the rest of the car since most of my fleet rides on Kadee sprung trucks that have been refitted with Intermountain wheelsets, even simple Athearn Blue Box cars with a little weathering. But only a small percentage of my rolling stock represents an investment of $40 each. But then again I have been developing the fleet for about 50 years now.
gmpullmanYes, Kevin. I should have mentioned that.
Thanks.
And... in the new picture you posted, it looks a proper blue.
DoughlessMy wife buys purses...and seems to never be satisfied with our current vaccum cleaner.
That is too funny. I could have posted the exact word-for-word comment about my wife.
Purses, purses, purses... none of them is ever "cute" enough.
Vacuums... Dyson, Hoover, Black & Decker, none of them ever work right. I even bought her a Milwaukee M18 "workshop vacuum", and it was no good.
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL But here is the most important thing, they all look good and run fine, so I will not replace them just because someone new makes a "better" GP7. Sheldon Why not? Maybe what I'm about to discuss belongs over in Kevin's locked thread. My purchasing habits for just about anything involve getting new better stuff that replaces the older stuff. And the older stuff does not necessarily have to be worn out or broken. It doesn't need to be replaced. Its best to keep what you have and run it into the ground, but things like cars, clothes, electronics, shoes, etc. People get new stiuff all of the time, and the old stuff still fits, works, isn't worn out. If a new item serves a situation better than an existing item; I think its pretty common to replace old with the new. Now, a person might be fickle about it. Or trendy, just buying the new version because it is the new version, but most don't do that. I guess I do churn many things I own...not frequently, and less so if the churn is costly (like someone who trades in cars every 3 to 5 years). My wife buys purses...and seems to never be satisfied with our current vaccum cleaner, whichever one it is this year. And I wouldn't say this happens with trinket disposable things. In your profession; you probably see people throw out cabinets, refrigerators, trim work, just because they are remodling something...and the stuff isn't broken or worn out. We just sold our good old golf cart to buy a new one, because the new one has better seats and is faster. For me, model trains, which are just hobby stuff, don't involve a different approach than anything else I buy. And having said that, you have shown that you keep a lot things for a long time, not just trains, and take some pride in that. That's fine.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But here is the most important thing, they all look good and run fine, so I will not replace them just because someone new makes a "better" GP7. Sheldon
Why not? Because it takes resourses away from other goals not yet reached.
I replace things when they are no longer serviceable.
I replace things when a new version REALLY does a better job and doing that task better will have impact.
When I buy a computer, I buy way more than I need, near the top of the technology so that it takes longer for it to become obsolete.
If my needs change I make adjustments. At the old house we only had about 3/4 acre of actual grass to cut but we had a pool - so I cut the grass and bagged all the clippings with this setup, it only had to be emptied twice to cut the whole lawn:
At the new house we have over two acres, no pool, less elaborate landscaping, way more trees. So I found one of these trailers for spring and fall cleanup, but I no longer bag clippings during regular mowing.
But yes, same tractor. Ther smart people who designed this machine set it up for both situations.
I understand how other people live, I don't want to afford that. I see it as wasteful.
But part of this question is what defines "better".
I don't need a "better" garden tractor, this one cost $8000 in 1996, it's really good, but more importantly it still does what I need done in an effective manner.
So what defines better with model trains?
Sound?, DCC?, more detail?, accuracy?
I have been over my thoughts on those topics.
Vacuum cleaners - in 45 years and two marrages, there have only been 5 of those things. One Kirby, one Electrolux, two Kenmores, and a Miele. But all of them were expensive.
Back to model trains - our modeling styles and interests are very different. I mean no disrepect to you or anyone, but the "less is more" approach leaves me cold.
So the realization that building a large layout is an extended commitment requires that some part of it will be a delayed gratifcation exercise, and replacing stuff before you even get things to a reasonable point of completeness just makes no sense.
This hobby is FULL of compromises - I choose the big layout, large curves, vast scenery, with the long trains, and the working signal system and the 30 trains hidden in staging tracks OVER squalky sound and perfect detail on every piece of equipment, DCC, etc.
So for MY GOALS, an Athearn blue box box car is in many cases "just as good".
And a Proto2000 GP7 will always be detailed enough, and in proper running order, run well enough.
I just have to ask, why do you own a golf cart?
SeeYou190 gmpullman Yes, Kevin. I should have mentioned that. Thanks. And... in the new picture you posted, it looks a proper blue. Doughless My wife buys purses...and seems to never be satisfied with our current vaccum cleaner. That is too funny. I could have posted the exact word-for-word comment about my wife. Purses, purses, purses... none of them is ever "cute" enough. Vacuums... Dyson, Hoover, Black & Decker, none of them ever work right. I even bought her a Milwaukee M18 "workshop vacuum", and it was no good. -Kevin
gmpullman Yes, Kevin. I should have mentioned that.
Doughless My wife buys purses...and seems to never be satisfied with our current vaccum cleaner.
Inside the house, the Miele is the best so far, small, light, basic, powerful, easy to keep clean and working.
In the shop, on the jobs, I have had the best luck with "shopvac" brand. We usually bust them up before they stop vacuuming.
Well, since we are talking freight car prices now....
I have learned my lesson about opening new threads from thoughts posted in this thread.
The Fleet Of Nonsense is a well varied set of freight cars because this is my passion. I love the freight car fleet of mid-century. There is so much variety.
Scratchbuilt boxcar built from my scrap box, basically free:
Basic boxcar built from an Intermountain kit, $20.00:
Pullman PS-1 built from a Kadee kit, $30.00:
Unique boxcar built from a Funaro & Camerlengo kit, $45.00:
Unique boxcar built from a Yarmouth kit, $65.00:
Ribbed boxcar built from a Sunshine Kit, $100.00:
Pullman pre-war welded boxcar in brass from W&R, $125.00:
-All Photographs by Kevin Parson
Look at the pictures and you can see that basically all of these freight cars have the same level of detail. Freestanding ladders and grab irons. Brake rod detail when visible. Nice looking sill steps.
Yet, they range in price from "FREE" to $125.00 not including trucks and couplers (except on the Kadee PS-1).
Why would I spend $125.00 on a boxcar that is no better than a $30.00 boxcar?
Because, they all fit my desires. I desire a highly varied fleet of freight cars. It does not matter what they cost. I love the free one just as much as the brass oddity. It is my decision to buy what I want.
I consider all of these simply "freight cars", not "$30.00 freight cars" or "$100.00 freight cars", they are all the same once painted and decorated. All are equal. All bring me joy.
I need all of them for total satisfaction.
I feel the same way about my locomotives and cabooses. Price does not really matter.
Passenger cars... well those I can take or leave... I haven't seen one yet worth dropping a Jackson on.
BTW: Please don't post any comments about how the scratchbuilt boxcar isn't really scratchbuilt because I didn't forge my own hobby knife from a cannister damascus billet made of old fish hooks.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And Ed, your Proto unit is missing the coupler lift bar it came with, note my picture from the bottom. Sheldon
OFF TOPIC:
Sheldon, I located the two RDCs you were interested in. I think you asked me to contact you by message or Facebook. The message feature doesn't seem to be working and I'm not sure how to find you on Facebook. I have a Facebook account but the only thing I've ever used it for is to sign into websites that ask you to sign on through Facebook.
You can contact me via email at jecorbett19580@yahoo.com. This is my junk email address so I'm not concerned about making it public. I only check it when I am expecting somebody to send me something.
John-NYBW ATLANTIC CENTRAL And Ed, your Proto unit is missing the coupler lift bar it came with, note my picture from the bottom. Sheldon OFF TOPIC: Sheldon, I located the two RDCs you were interested in. I think you asked me to contact you by message or Facebook. The message feature doesn't seem to be working and I'm not sure how to find you on Facebook. I have a Facebook account but the only thing I've ever used it for is to sign into websites that ask you to sign on through Facebook. You can contact me via email at jecorbett19580@yahoo.com. This is my junk email address so I'm not concerned about making it public. I only check it when I am expecting somebody to send me something.
Email sent.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI replace things when a new version REALLY does a better job and doing that task better will have impact
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut part of this question is what defines "better"
ATLANTIC CENTRALSo what defines better with model trains? Sound?, DCC?, more detail?, accuracy?
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd a Proto2000 GP7 will always be detailed enough, and in proper running order, run well enough.
These are the answers I expected. Your goals or interests do not include a lot of the areas where the "advancements" have come over the decades; digital control, onboard sound, even LED lighting.
The products have evolved in areas that don't interest you, so the models you already have stay that much more relevant. I'm the same way with self-driving cars and parking assist features.
So to you, the advancement in these models comes from the details and possibly the quality of the paint. That's pretty much it.
The new models simply don't offer you enough to replace the old ones.
For a lot of us though, they do. A modern Genesis GP7 offers us much more than the Life Like Proto GP7 from 1998. Eventhough the detail quality is not that much better. A knew Loksound V5 locomotive is a lot better than a 15 year old QSI.
As far as keeping things and making them last...buying well and holding....that's more about money management over the long term than it is about trains. Just a way of life. That's how you buy things, and trains are no different.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI just have to ask, why do you own a golf cart?
For transportation, believe it or not. Where we live, we have 100 miles of cart paths, no sidewalks. The kids can drive themselves when they turn 15 and get a learners permit, and to school and to work since business have designated parking. The parental taxi service stops then, and its a relief. Kids can legally drive golf carts at age 12, as long as an adult is beside them in the front seat. Not to mention beating the traffic when leaving concerts, or picking up a couple of bags of groceries at Kroger.
Student parking lot at the local high school.
DoughlessStudent parking lot at the local high school.
It looks like The Villages. Prepping the kids for old age in Florida I see.
Douglas, interesting about the golf carts and paths. We don't have cart paths or sidewalks out here with the cows and corn fields....
In the town they have sidewalks, and taxi trams - you know, over sized public golf cart taxis.
We park our car near what we need to do in town and walk - it's a small town and not that busy/crowded.
I almost want to ask you more about where you live...... almost. Somehow I just get a feeling it would not be the right setting for me. My youngest kid is 38......
You are correct about many of the advancements in the hobby not being in areas of importance to me.
The advancements that matter most to me happened in the 80's and early 90's.
A lot of my locos do have LED lighting, but just headlights, no ditch lights, etc. They did not exist yet.
So it clear that a lot of this comes down to DCC and sound. I have operated many hours on other peoples DCC layouts, with and without sound. It did not win me over.
The same way my brain hurts when people around me listen to music on their cell phones.
Thanks for sharing,
SeeYou190 Doughless Student parking lot at the local high school. It looks like The Villages. Prepping the kids for old age in Florida I see. -Kevin
Doughless Student parking lot at the local high school.
I was not going to go there.....
Major topic drift as usual. What about the PA's?
riogrande5761Major topic drift as usual. What about the PA's?
I tried to take some of the topic drift to a new thread and got yelled at for it.
riogrande5761 Major topic drift as usual. What about the PA's?
Ed posted some nice pictures, he seems happy with his. I do agree they look nice.
John is trying to get one but has heard some others are not as happy.
Other hearsay reports are mixed.
And again, I tried to buy some, but they decided not to make my roadname.
So I bought a few more NOS Proto2000 versions off Ebay....
So now I have three A/B sets, more than I really need but the prices were right and they run great, and I already had some spare parts on hand.
I had the day off today, and felt like taking it easy. But don't worry, tomorrow I will be back at work and not have time for this.
We should probably get back on topic.
I might start posting pics of my EZGO as much as Sheldon posts pics of his GRAVELY.
DoughlessI might start posting pics of my EZGO as much as Sheldon posts pics of his GRAVELY.
Wilson and Cicero are Club Car kind of guys.
IMG_6608 by Edmund, on Flickr
Sorry, just had to do it
Ed posted a picture of his Club Car, your turn!
Bonus points for including cats.
My dogs cut the grass.
Here are my two, they look good to me and I will be running them at the club on Saturday.
Kevin, your "nonsense" boxcars are terrific.
You could go into business selling these paint/decal schemes. Nothing fancy, just custom-finished basic Athearn boxcar shells. It's the paint/roadnames that make the difference.
I'd buy some...!
OldEnginemanKevin, your "nonsense" boxcars are terrific.
Thank you for your kind comment. At last count I had over 100 different ficticious roadnames in the fleet. I have no idea how many are there now.
Back in the 1980s and 1990s I made dozens of trades with others for sets of custom decals. This was all pre-internet. It was a lot of fun.
The quality of these custom made decals is very good. All of these 30-40 year old decal sets still work just fine.
I think 20 or so of the freight cars were lettered with individual letters, like the SOUTH RICKMORT car. I don't so this very often.
The make believe freight cars are really a hobby within the hobby for me. I really get a kick out of making these.
When I get my workshop up and running again (don't hold your breath), drop me an email and I will send you an SGRR freight car.
I often choose to upgrade to the latest or perceived by me to be nicest new model. I only have a modest railroad. If/when I get to 10 diesels, I start to think I might have too many, and everything gets run and earns its keep.
The professional engineer in me very much appreciates all the advancements that some manufacturers have made that now enable them to offer correct tooling for every possible roadname variation of some models. I find that to be way cool. Others would not care. I see what I see and like what I like.
Since I don't need 1000 freight cars or 100 locos to operate my layout, and I wouldn't feel comfortable tying up that kind of money even if accumulated over many years, I don't have qualms about having a few nice freight cars and state-of-the-art locos.
So, yeah, I often choose to upgrade or trade-in to the latest/greatest new model. Sometimes they turn out to be not what I expected (RS-11, also Genesis GP-7's in totally wrong paint color ie Maine Central, or B36-7 in horribly mismatched paint colors ie SPSF red and yellow both incorrect, far away from both prototype and Genesis colors). Sometimes they far exceed my expectations. I like ScaleTrains lighting features, but they do not happen to offer a diesel that I currently need.
Then my freight car roster adjusts to whatever era it needs to in order to fit with the locos. Right now I'm getting ready to sell a bunch of Tangent/Exactrail/Genesis/Intermountain/ScaleTrains freight cars. Some won't sell till a train show in February where I will share a table once again.
They are being replaced with mostly Kadee and a few Moloco freight cars appropriate for 1966 and prior. Many NKP locos were stll wearing full NKP paint in 1966, 2 years after the N&W merger, and I'm going to have plenty of NKP locos now that they are actually available (besides merely 1 PA-1) with more coming in spring.
The thread was asking about happiness, a judgment thingy, and that can vary amongst buyers for various reasons. Its relevant to explore motivations and goals when the topic is about happiness with a product.
Innocent friendly banter keeps threads from becoming an impersonal cold hearted listing of facts, IMO, and can be categorized as humorous intermission.
You know the undertones in model railroading threads across the internet. Many people take sides when it comes to producers because of their particular perspective on the hobby.
Are you interested in the Rio Grande PAs, or just new products from Rapido in general?
Semi interested. The PA's really fall outside of my primary interest time period but as often happens, it can be interesting to run a few trains from an earlier time period. Years ago I bought the Proto2000 D&RGW yellow 4 stripe PA, which wasn't a bad looking engine at the time. It looks like Rapido may be trying to make this D&RGW PA fit 50's and 60's with the late style grab iron details and toe creep way etc. but tossing in the side number boards as an option. But even though my disposable income is more than it used to be, the costs of engines and models in general are forcing many of us to make choices.
riogrande5761Years ago I bought the Proto2000 D&RGW yellow 4 stripe PA, which wasn't a bad looking engine at the time.
Your standards must be higher than mine are.
I thought that was a great example of an Alco PA in a gorgeous paint scheme.
riogrande5761 Semi interested. The PA's really fall outside of my primary interest time period but as often happens, it can be interesting to run a few trains from an earlier time period. Years ago I bought the Proto2000 D&RGW yellow 4 stripe PA, which wasn't a bad looking engine at the time. It looks like Rapido may be trying to make this D&RGW PA fit 50's and 60's with the late style grab iron details and toe creep way etc. but tossing in the side number boards as an option. But even though my disposable income is more than it used to be, the costs of engines and models in general are forcing many of us to make choices.
I would think 1977 would be too late for a PA. Cool paint scheme for that loco though.
You would want matching cars too, no?
Doughless riogrande5761 Semi interested. The PA's really fall outside of my primary interest time period but as often happens, it can be interesting to run a few trains from an earlier time period. Years ago I bought the Proto2000 D&RGW yellow 4 stripe PA, which wasn't a bad looking engine at the time. It looks like Rapido may be trying to make this D&RGW PA fit 50's and 60's with the late style grab iron details and toe creep way etc. but tossing in the side number boards as an option. But even though my disposable income is more than it used to be, the costs of engines and models in general are forcing many of us to make choices. I would think 1977 would be too late for a PA. Cool paint scheme for that loco though. You would want matching cars too, no?
The 4 D&H PA's were in service until 1978, so 1977 could work.
I have no affiliation with Lombard Hobbies, however they have just posted the PAs for sale, at a decent discount. 2 of them as DC models would not end up as a "$400 locomotive".
n012944 I have no affiliation with Lombard Hobbies, however they have just posted the PAs for sale, at a decent discount. 2 of them as DC models would not end up as a "$400 locomotive".
Roadname?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL n012944 I have no affiliation with Lombard Hobbies, however they have just posted the PAs for sale, at a decent discount. 2 of them as DC models would not end up as a "$400 locomotive". Roadname?
https://lombardhobby.com/rapido-ho/
n012944Lombard-Hobby-Rapido
Well, that give me something to think about.
$350.00 for a PA/PB pair, and the NYC Lightning Stripe looks like a possible paint-over job.
OK... PA owners... How do they run and pull?
SeeYou190OK... PA owners... How do they run and pull?
I only have an hour of "break-in" time on my NKP pair. I'm very impressed. If you get DC models you'll have plenty of room to add a little weight§. Presently the pair are pulling a seventeen-car "Merchant's Limited" (Rapido Pullman, New Haven 8600 coaches, two diners and four parlor cars) which is what I had on the main at the time.
I just got an email from Scale Sound systems that they have already developed a custom fit speaker for the PAs. A worthy upgrade. The Rapido designers seem to like iphone speakers and I'm not impressed with these especially compared to the SSS performance.
I just ordered an NYC A-B set from MB Klein. (ModelTrainStuff) don't forget to type in laborday10 for a 10% additional off.
§ If that's your cup of tea.
Happy modeling.
gmpullmanPresently the pair are pulling a seventeen-car "Merchant's Limited" (Rapido Pullman, New Haven 8600 coaches, two diners and four parlor cars) which is what I had on the main at the time.
I could never fit a 17 car train in the space I have for a layout.
My maximum passenger train length I calculated at 2 locomotives and seven cars. I am sure virtually any locomotive can handle that.
I currently have Athearn PAs, I never upgraded to Proto-2000 models, so these would be a big step up.
How thick is the paint? Could I paint over, or would I need to strip?
SeeYou190How thick is the paint? Could I paint over, or would I need to strip?
Not overly thick I would say. Rather than NYC stripes which might be hard to hide even if you try to remove them you might want to think about the "Bloody Nose" SP scheme? Solid gray. Possibly you could remove the lettering, with luck, and retain the red nose and claim S&G had it first and the SP/Cotton Belt borrowed it from you!
I know somebody that could fix you up with a nice pair of Proto 2000 NYC A-B PAs if you're interested Only driven to the bingo games on Wednesday night and choir practice on Saturday mornings...
Good Luck, Ed
Just got my plain dc no sound NKP PA-1 this morning.
Also note distributors including Walthers are out of Rio Grande units. The few units still in stock at distributors are mostly LV and NKP units (which imo are the best looking models of the ones made by Rapido). Edit: the PRR, NH, Freedom Train, and SP fans should all be happy, especially with 2 versions of SP.
Held a Santa Fe one in my hands. The painted stainless steel finish does not do it, not even close to capturing the correct look of a Santa Fe unit (this is why the LV and NKP units look the best; they also have the least number of fat plastic grabs on them and their paint is pretty good). Color separations are good but not great on the NKP as there is subtle white overspray in places as others have noted. The NKP paint curves it seems are difficult to mask and paint well for anyone, and this model does have a better NKP paint job than what you'd normally see on a brass one, when you can find them (Brasstrains has one that is not as good as the Rapido model).
On my new model I fixed most of the offending crooked cylinders; some would not break free to rotate them. They may have been glued into place crooked on purpose to clear the underbody wiring that nobody can see unless the model is upside down. I personally would have glued the cylinders into the correct position and skipped the un-seeable details, also because the trucks seem to want to snag on those details.
24" radius curves are recommended. I have Kato 26.375" minimum radius with 28.75" radius effective easements into them. My trackwork easily accommodates any BLI or MTH steamer including 4-8-8-4's, 2-8-8-4's, and 4-8-4's, and even 4-12-2's. However, the PA-1 does not fully like my trackwork and in particular does not like to back up in some areas without derailing. Fortunately, I don't plan on backing up much. Forward it is working ok now after a little adjustment of a Kato #8 turnout. Had to fix a low spot at a joint in close proximity to the frog. PA-1 doesn't like a sag kink anywhere.
The model is noisier in plain dc than other Rapido engines I have had. It runs fast, can easily achieve the 117 mph prototypical top speed if desired. It pulls extremely well--I have to give it that. It pulls as well as some heavier larger diesels, so I would think a couple units could pull most decent length passenger trains.
As compared to the Bowser brand new RS-3 model, the Bowser in plain dc runs much quieter. Bowser did a better job on road specific details and getting everything to fit exceptionally well. I believe that to be an honest and fair comparison. That's not trashing the Rapido PA-1, but merely comparing it to the other most current new loco that is out.
The Rapido PA-1 is a very good model. There are legitimate concerns with the front windshield shape and location (offset) of the trim piece around the front windshield not being quite correct especially at the outer corners. Most will not compare it to a prototype photo to care. The side grills look much better than the Walthers/Proto model. Overall it is probably a nicer model than that older, now somewhat dated Proto body. They could have done a bit more pilot detail right around the coupler and its opening. That appears to be a missing item. Imo it would have been better to skip the underbody wiring that can get in the way of truck swing, and to instead spend a little more effort on the coupler pocket itself, but that's my opinion and I don't get to tool up models.
Overall, for most people it is a really nice model worthy of a spot on your roster. Diehard Santa Fe and D&H fans might not be happy with anything less than a real metal plated finish, because that's what they've come to expect especially with Walthers and Genesis F units having set such a high standard.
I consider this to be a very good model that could have been the "standard" against which all other PA models are ever measured, but they didn't quite get it that good.
Having run it and played with it, I am glad I got one.
I noted from Ed's photos that a few things are better done than on the Proto model.
And few things I feel are neither better or worse, just done differently. One thing for sure, all six Proto's I have are smooth and quiet, and the diaphragms work well and meet my standards with the Kadee kit installed.
Had they made the undecorated models, I'm sure I would have been happy from what you and Ed have had to say, and from pictures I have seen. But that would not have resulting in the retirement of my Protos.
On the other hand, I'm not really disappointed in not getting them.
I found more NOS Proto models in my prefered version, dynamic brakes, big numberboards, as well as dynamic brake B units, so I'm set now, more PA's than I need, at bargain prices, just a little more work to convert the dummy B's to powered units, and a few spare parts.....
PRR825924" radius curves are recommended. I have Kato 26.375" minimum radius with 28.75" radius effective easements into them. My trackwork easily accommodates any BLI or MTH steamer including 4-8-8-4's, 2-8-8-4's, and 4-8-4's, and even 4-12-2's. However, the PA-1 does not fully like my trackwork and in particular does not like to back up in some areas without derailing.
Thank you for this information. That gets me off the fence, and into the "no" column for this model.
My hidden curves will be Kato 22" Unitrack, and I don't want anything that turns up its nose at these curves.
My Rapido RDC does not like them either, but I think that one will be an easy fix.
SeeYou190--
I got the PA-1 running better on the layout and made a slight adjustment to a low track joint adjacent a Kato #8 turnout. Something is still making it hang up and pause for a split second every time it crosses that track joint, and I can't figure out what it is. It has improved, but is annoying.
There still are areas of my layout on a superelevated horizontal curve where the PA-1 wants to derail when backing up.
Some people have referred to me as being a "Rapido-hater". However I'm trying to be as objective as I can. If one has any illusions about the quality of one's trackwork, the long wheelbase trucks of the PA-1 will find any areas where there might be an issue.
PRR8259 Some people have referred to me as being a "Rapido-hater". However I'm trying to be as objective as I can. If one has any illusions about the quality of one's trackwork, the long wheelbase trucks of the PA-1 will find any areas where there might be an issue. John
richhotrain PRR8259 Some people have referred to me as being a "Rapido-hater". However I'm trying to be as objective as I can. If one has any illusions about the quality of one's trackwork, the long wheelbase trucks of the PA-1 will find any areas where there might be an issue. John It's not only Rapido. In my experience, it is the nature of the beast. Until recently, I had two pairs of Proto 2000 PA/PB locos. They found every flaw in my trackwork that might even baffle a forensic scientist. I've said it before. I will say it again. I will never owned another PA or PB locomotive. Rich
It's not only Rapido. In my experience, it is the nature of the beast. Until recently, I had two pairs of Proto 2000 PA/PB locos. They found every flaw in my trackwork that might even baffle a forensic scientist. I've said it before. I will say it again. I will never owned another PA or PB locomotive.
No question, they like bigger curves. Never any problems here on 36" radius.
PRR8259I got the PA-1 running better on the layout and made a slight adjustment to a low track joint adjacent a Kato #8 turnout. Something is still making it hang up and pause for a split second every time it crosses that track joint, and I can't figure out what it is. It has improved, but is annoying.
My Athearn PA/PB set has no problem on Kato Unitrack. Since I just got two new sets of undecorated PA & PB body shells I can fix what I don't like about the way they are currently painted.
I do appreciate your objective statements.
In my 20's, I was a slobbering Alco PA fan. I read all the PA books that were out years ago, multiple times through, and I owned some of the Overland Models HO versions, which ran great for me. My issue was affording the custom paint work. When I got a real quote from my favorite professional painter to take a nickel plated ATSF Overland PA-1 and paint it and do the correct lighting, well, it was more than $500 per unit back then. You couldn't find the factory painted ATSF ones; they were impossible to find for a lot of years, at any price, or only showed up when I didn't have that kind of money. F/P is and was definitely worth the money.
I let go the two (EMD repowered version) PA's that I had to someone else...and the years went by and I played with a whole lot of other trains since. When I can't find something I want, I generally find some other train to want (that part isn't too hard for me).
Always wanted a good CB&Q E-5A, too, ever since Don Ball Jr.'s pan shot in the book America's Colorful Railroads all those years ago.
So after all these years, I finally got a nice NKP Bluebird...would've probably gotten some more PA's, but I'm more into freight railroading now. The SP PA-1 models really look great, too, but SP isn't my thing.
Doesn't mean I'm not a little bit torn by what might've been and passenger train consists I might've owned (PRR/many roads East Wind and South Wind, I know not pulled by PA's).
Still debating picking up just one LV PA-1...and remembering my friends who would've scarfed all 3 numbers of many roads, but are dead and gone, now.
Maybe if Rapido would do the NH orange and green scheme...
Well, all this PA talk and I just got carried away. On Ebay today, another set of undecorated PA/PB, both powered, in my prefered version, 45 degree number boards and dynamic brakes, for the bargain price of $100 - for both.
So now I'm really over my quota for PA's. Maybe some of these passenger trains need a few more cars, so I can justify three units on a train.
Now I don't loose any sleep over this sort of stuff, but I got curious about spotting differences between the PA1 and the PA2.
Internally the PA1 is 2,000 HP, and the PA2 is 2,250 HP.
But as for exterior spotting differences, in some cases no difference at all.
Early PA1's seem to mostly have the small number boards. Later PA1's are mixed bag on various roads. All PA2's appear to have the large 45 degree number boards.
Early PA2's have the same distinctive curved grill behind the cab door as the PA1's.
Southern Pacific ordered a number of unique features, some of which ended up on a few other later PA2's, mainly the lack of the curved grill.
Missouri Pacific and Southern Pacific were the two biggest users of PA2's, but the MP PA2's look just like their PA1's, while SP PA2's have a number of distinct features.
So, the ATLANTIC CENTRAL PA's are offically PA2's now.......
Yes, so far as I know that is pretty correct. I personally do not know if the SP PA-2's were different in appearance at delivery, or if SP modifications changed the look very shortly thereafter. It seems as if SP was always modifying their PA's.
The PA-2 is not supposed to have the curved trim piece Sheldon alluded to, but some probably did. Also, all Santa Fe units were PA-1 models, but as years wore on some received Farr grill replacements.
I read the SP book on Alco PA's many years ago; it's been too long and I don't remember details about the appearance--except I always kinda wanted the Halloween PA unit, and the SSW or T&NO units with the silver roof actually looked even better than the regular SP ones.
The one striking thing I do remember is that SP generally speaking actually got pretty good use out of their Alco PA's. The book clearly stated that several SP PA's at retirement had accumulated 3 million miles each. That is actually quite impressive, especially for the 244 engines which were not so well regarded. (Obviously SP took advantage of the late 244-G and -H variants, possibly available through warranty, but definitely available from Alco who had fixed the late crankshafts and turbochargers).
Also, in the past there was considerable confusion--Some Alco PA-2's were in the press classified, possibly in error, as PA-3's, perhaps due to Alco specification numbers changing...there are both Overland Models and Key Imports boxes that identify some units as "PA-3" even though that particular model, today in hindsight, was supposed to have a 251 prime mover. They were the last PA-2's built in real life. (Southern, P&LE, probably some MP and SP units).
The PA-3 with the 251 engine was catalogued by Alco, but never actually built.
The Jim Boyd book on Alco PA's and the Romano book "PA Alco's Glamour Girl" are great reads and can now be costly.
The Missouri Pacific bought 8 PA1's, #8001 - 8008 and 28 PA2's #8009 - 8036.
EVERY picture I could find of the PA2 group of locos, in their as delivered paint schemes, has the curved grill, and matches all the other features of the earlier MP PA1's.
Interestingly I found one MP PA, newer dip blue scheme, renumbered 75, with non curved grill.
All other renumbered, new scheme units I could find have the curved grill.
So I think at least those 28 were built with the curved grills.
From what I have read, ALCO made good on the 244 engines and the turbos for those roads who "stuck it out", other roads just gave up and moved on.
Update: More pictures, more info - looks like the last 6 MP PA2's had the non curved grill.
And this info confirms the ALCO serial number issue. PA1's - 77503 - 77510.
Than 5 different groups of PA2's - all with 78XXX and 79XXX serial numbers.
The last six PA2's, 80045 -80050.
So, if that carries at all into other PA2 production, it might actually be that most PA2's had the curved grills and the straight grill did not appear until August 1952 production dates.
Imagine that.
Leaving the unique Southern Pacific fleet of PA's out of the conversation, I can only find possibly 20 PA2's built after 8/52 that have the straight grill. Production ended in 12/53.
All earlier non SP PA2's appear to have been built with the curved grill.
Nice research their Sheldon.
Yes, I know a larger number of PA-2's still apparently had the curved trim strip.
I never was too concerned which PA had or did not have that trim strip.
Despite my misgivings about the lack of plated finish, I was tempted to buy a single ATSF PA-1 or a D&H. Lombard Hobbies still has both with and without sound, in stock, or did as of yesterday.
However, having to break the truck cylinders loose, and not being able to get all to free up on my NKP, plus some other issues like the trim piece immediately adjacent to the front windshields not being quite the right width everywhere, and the grab irons...plus the fact that I just got a BLI PRR P70 coach in, and it derails on my superelevated curves...well I won't be modeling any passenger trains.
I had worked to improve my layout by adding superelevated curves, but have since found out that specifically BLI P70 coachs and Rapido B36-7's do not like my superelevated curves. Given that things are now glued into position, and I can't just tear up and relay track or the end result will be less level or smooth than what I have now, well running passenger trains looks like an epic fail despite the fact I can run big articulateds and any other diesels with no problems at all.
I am tempted to tear apart my layout and begin again but with something actually portable like a 5 x 9. All my original trackwork from 15 years ago that is Kato 26.38" radius curves, on flat or relatively flat pink foam insulation sheet, works just fine. It's the newer superelevated Kato track sections that are not working for me. (Yes did use their transition pieces but side to side leveling is the issue).
PRR8259 Nice research their Sheldon. Yes, I know a larger number of PA-2's still apparently had the curved trim strip. I never was too concerned which PA had or did not have that trim strip. John
Yes, I only found it interesting because I can call mine PA2's, and no rivet counter can agrue orherwise.....
Just like the extensive research I did into the plausibility of my 69" driver LIMA heavy Mikados. They never built them, but they could have. They would have been right in between the DT&I 800's and the NKP Berks, in terms of weight, speed and power.
PRR8259Well, running passenger trains looks like an epic fail.
I have had good results with Athearn and Roundhouse "shortie" cars with Kadee wheels installed. Also with the full length IHC cars refitted with their own metal RP-25 31" wheels.
Newer super detailed full length passenger cars, not so much.
Anyway, it is saving me money!
I operated the shortened passenger cars in the past, many years ago, and simply can't or don't want to go back to anything like that again. In most cases I have made minor track adjustments to make everything else including the big 86' boxcars and long flat cars work. The superelevated curves are R=31"+; it is the rate of change of cross slope relative to allowable truck roll motion that causes some items to not work.
I have heard that six wheeled trucks, like on a PA, have more trouble transitioning into super elevated trackage.
SeeYou190 I have heard that six wheeled trucks, like on a PA, have more trouble transitioning into super elevated trackage. -Kevin
I'm pretty skeptical about using super elevation on curves only in the 30" radius range.
First thing I want to to know is how much super elevation and the length of the transition.
Good questions guys--
The one Kato superelevated track is 790 mm radius, a bit over 31" radius. The length of a track section (22.5 degrees of a 360 degree circle) is about 12" (I measured very nearly two 6" chords to get that approximation). The superelevation transition is approximately 1/16" over that 12" length.
If your trackwork has not been ripped up and relaid (like my curves were), and is pretty good, I think the Rapido PA will work fine. Since I didn't get the surface completely dead level prior to installing the Kato superelevated track that compromised the rate of change of cross slope (which is over one track section the way Kato makes the track). Also the one problem area is in a very slight vertical crest curve. This is what is making the long wheelbase, or limited in lateral and vertical motion, loco trucks have issues.
The PA-1 does work for me, so long as I don't try to back it through the one curve.
The BLI P70 coach totally does not work at any slow speed. It may be too light. The trucks ride up over the outside rail at certain slightly uneven spots.
The original Kato 26.375" radius, non-superelevated trackwork that was installed 15 years ago on brand new foam sheet insulation (ie flat) works just fine for the Rapido PA-1. It is the areas where I relaid track and went to larger radius, for various equipment I wanted to run, where I'm having issues.
I hope this is more helpful information that what I provided above.
I think for anyone who starts with a good smooth surface they will have less issues, but yes, long 6-wheel trucks would be the biggest challenge.
The BLI P70 coach only has 4-wheel trucks, but with the electrical pickups and by design they have more limited lateral and vertical motion. So that is why they are more fussy about the track.
My track is not as good as Sheldon's but does work for most equipment including big freight steam and 86' Tangent autoparts boxcars.
I would have to say Exactly Correct!
(Zix Heel) trucks have a tough time transitioning well into anything, unless a master of easements can prepare for that
TF
Here are a few examples of my trackwork:
These pictures were taken on my old layout, in a conversation about getting flex track straight - so only few curves shown.
The top picture is a 54"/56" radius curve with 18" long easements.
The bottom curve is a 36"/38" radius curve with 15" long easements.
The roadbed is homasote.
I know there are lots of fans of Unitrack out there, but I'm sorry, sticking a piece of larger radius sectional track at the end of a curve is not an easement.
So I looked up some stuff:
The superelevated Unitrack is roughly 31" radius and uses A 22.5 degree segment for the transition - about 12" long - KATO does not say how much the superelevation is, but for any noticable superelevation 12" of transition is not enough.
Yes, well, I wish I had that kind of space and the carpentry expertise. Actually my Dad's carpentry was excellent, too, but when I relaid certain curves I maybe should have cut out and replaced foam sheets or portions of them.
So if you cut corners on trackwork and space, you get what you get. I do thoroughly test things before ever gluing them down with the Liquid Nails, but as years went by, I ended up running some equipment I never designed for in the first place, and have made accommodations for that, but clearly not perfectly enough.
So for prospective PA owners, either find lots of space or have truly excellent smooth trackwork.
PRR8259 Yes, well, I wish I had that kind of space and the carpentry expertise. Actually my Dad's carpentry was excellent, too, but when I relaid certain curves I maybe should have cut out and replaced foam sheets or portions of them. So if you cut corners on trackwork and space, you get what you get. I do thoroughly test things before ever gluing them down with the Liquid Nails, but as years went by, I ended up running some equipment I never designed for in the first place, and have made accommodations for that, but clearly not perfectly enough. So for prospective PA owners, either find lots of space or have truly excellent smooth trackwork.
Well, I know I'm an old school curmudgeon, but I would never build a model train layout on foam. Not because it does not work, but because I just hate working with it.
Liquid nails, I barely use that in my profession as a carpenter, I would never lay track of any kind with it.
AND, I have always built benchwork I can climb on if need be. I built one layout (shown above) with some sections as a "shelf layout". Never do that or the double deck thing again.
I was so unhappy with the "scenic views", I never finished the layout. Took it down and started on a new plan.
Only time in 50 years I was unhappy with a layout plan once I was into it.
But I'm old and set in ways that have proven to work.......
My dad built the benchwork, but I chose the foam so that I could carve scenic features etc. into it. I was really impressed with some articles I had seen in Model Railroader where people just did a phenomenal job on scenery and said it was much easier to work with--and lighter--than the traditional plaster over some kind of framework method (which is also messier and more difficult and more time consuming). I opted, always, for ease of construction.
I was just down working on a slight adjustment to one curve. Still, even after additional work, the six axle rear truck of the PA-1 wants to ride out over the outside rail when backing up through the curve, just barely but enough to derail. Forwards, the curve is on a very slight downgrade (about 0.4%) and the Rapido PA-1 works fine.
I just tested the Athearn Genesis DDA40X on the same curve, both forward and reverse, with absolutely no issues whatsoever. Why? Because Athearn builds enough axle end-play into those giant 8-wheel trucks, and also Athearn allowed plenty of lateral and vertical truck motion. The big DDA40X is able to easily negotiate things that the Rapido 6-axle truck of the PA-1 just will not do quite as well. The difference is slight but noticeable. I'm not trashing the PA-1 to say it is just a little more finicky about the quality of the trackwork than the DDA40X monster loco.
A big part of the problem here is the wheelbase of the GSC truck used on the PA, 15'-6" compared to 14'-1" for the EMD 6 wheel truck on E units.
And the DD40 truck, having four closer spaced axles is more able to steer itself through the curve, again, agreeing that it needs enough play.
Rich had PA issues with Proto units on 30" curves, but not with EMD E units.
17 scale inches can make the difference.
No one wants to admit that often we are running these models on the hairy edge of the engineering.
I chose a different path...
ATLANTIC CENTRAL A big part of the problem here is the wheelbase of the GSC truck used on the PA, 15'-6" compared to 14'-1" for the EMD 6 wheel truck on E units. And DD40 truck, having four closer spaced axles is more able to steer itself through the curve, again, agreeing that it needs enough play. Rich had PA issues with Proto units 30" curves, but not with EMD E units. 17 scale inches can make the difference. No one wants to admit that often we are running these models on the hairy edge of the engineering. I chose a different path... Sheldon
And DD40 truck, having four closer spaced axles is more able to steer itself through the curve, again, agreeing that it needs enough play.
Rich had PA issues with Proto units 30" curves, but not with EMD E units.
But, the two pairs of Proto 2000 PA/PB locomotives gave me fits, particularly one of the PA locomotives. To my eye, the trucks on the PA and PB units look giant compared to the 6-axle trucks on my E-units. I finally sold off my PA/PB units after a lot of effort working on my track work to no avail.
Every other loco that I own would run without derailing except for that one PA. With a lot of help and advice, I finally solved the biggest problem. The right front truck was being pulled up a slight bit off the rail on one curve. Turned out, the power wire from the truck was wedged between two parts of the frame, lifting the truck off the rail in the curve with resulting derailments when it reached the next turnout.
Once that problem was fixed, most of the derailments disappeared, but at high speeds an occasional derailment would still occur on both PA/PB consists. I got fed up and dumped both consists vowing to never again own a PA or PB unit.
17 scale inches.
Agreed. Yes, always knew we are running some of these models at the very limits of what they can possibly do. You see it when watching them track at very low speed.
One has to wonder how many of these things sit in the closet roundhouse for a layout that someone hopes to build, but in most cases never will get around to doing, or else how many just sit on a collector's shelf?
My long time friend is a train store sales manager. He knows that most people are accumulators and don't actually ever run the stuff, beyond perhaps a test run on some kind of tangent test track.
The brass PA-1 models were usually heavy enough (and had enough axle end-play) to be able to handle 30" and lesser curves. Plus the Overlands have individual wheel sprung equalization. That makes a big difference in performance. So when I go 2 decades without playing with a certain type of model, of course I forget that they can be picky.
Having also worked retail in this hobby, and having been involved in it for over 50 years now, there as definitely been a shift in that percentage. In the 70's I would have said, 25% collectors/accumulators. 25% very serious scale modelers, 50% casual modelers with small to medium sized layouts.
Today, I think the collector/accumulators are easily 40% with the other two groups evenly dividing the rest of the market.
And I think region effects these numbers, because of a complex number of factors.
In the northeast and upper Midwest, houses have basements. Nearly free large layout spaces. These areas also have generally high incomes and education levels and dense populations. You are going to find more serious modelers with medium to large layouts.
You have to have more resources to have a big layout in Florida or Southern California, simply based on housing types and costs.
One other thought, it is a chicken and egg effect. As the RTR models improved, it was more attractive to those with means but little time or skills, to be interested in this hobby. That meant good sales for Proto2000, Spectrum, BLI, MTH, Rapido. Which meant more and better models, etc.
Personally, I have my whole layout plan and concept in my head and on paper. However slow, and with a few redirects caused by life, every step I take,every purchase I make, is another small piece of that puzzle.
It is starting to come together now, more layout progress updates soon.
My Athearn PAs can snake through a 22" radius S curve, forward and reverse, with no problems at all.
SeeYou190 My Athearn PAs can snake through a 22" radius S curve, forward and reverse, with no problems at all. -Kevin
A simple result of a very simple design, one piece side frames, minimal detail on the trucks, lots of side play, and truck mounted couplers.
For its time, and the nature of the hobby at that time, it was a great model. A model that would be impossible to sell in numbers today.
Seems we strayed from the original question.
maxmanSeems we strayed from the original question.
Yeah, like five pages ago.
Well, perhaps we strayed after answering the question a couple pages back.
However, discussion of how to fix trackwork to get the PA-1's (and other related passenger stuff) to operate well also has some merit. Sorry didn't bother to create another topic.
Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good:
My father aged rather quickly at the end. He left lots of tools here because he was always doing stuff on our house. The tools still remain reminding me of him...which is certainly thought provoking as trains run in the basement.
High track joint--gave one rail a few gentle kisses with Dad's hammer (er, persuader). Fixed one curve.
Used Atlas track nails to actually lower the inside of a couple pieces of curved and superelevated Kato unitrack, effectively increasing the superelevation as well as the rate of change of superelevation. Fixed another curve.
Used just one set of Kadee coupler instructions as a shim piece under Unitrack to raise one side of rail that looked low at a reverse curve. Glued in place with canopy glue (it was handy) so that cat cannot remove the shim (he's tried before). Fixed third curve.
Still can only run one direction through the one curve, but can now attain serious toy train speed levels with the Rapido PA-1 in plain dc pulling the token BLI PRR P-70 coach all the way around the layout.
Better lucky than good.
An idea that I have never tried but it seems like it might make 3 axle trucks more reliable is to remove the wheels from the center axles. The axle would have to remain in place for the gearing.
I don't think the absence of the wheels behind the sideframes would be very noticable under most viewing situations. A dummy half wheel without a flange could be glued to the back of the sideframe to ride slightly above the rail to fill the space.
Removing the lead or trailing wheels might work also. I have seen the lead axle of a 3 axle truck derail but the engine continued on for 20 feet until a switch was encountered.
PRR8259New Rapido PA-1 owners, are you happy with your new acquisitions?
So far — still am
Had to have two more in two-tone grey.
PA_NYC-broadside by Edmund, on Flickr
PA_NYC-Pacemaker by Edmund, on Flickr
IF there is a critical point to these, for me, it would be the fitting of the small numberboard to the contour of the nose. I would have much prefered to see a nice radius fillet around the numberboard/class light housing. Minus a quarter of a star. They did a great job with the fit of the large 45° housing.
PA_NYC-old-cab-pass by Edmund, on Flickr
All the talk about PAs prompted me to round a few up for a family portrait:
PA_Roundhouse-lineup-3 by Edmund, on Flickr
PA_Roundhouse-lineup-2 by Edmund, on Flickr
PA_Roundhouse-lineup by Edmund, on Flickr
None of these engines give me any tracking troubles even on superelevated curves. Just lucky, I guess. I did have a couple of the hi-current draw Protos but since weeded them out.
I just sent an order in for some Scale Sound Systems speakers. Rapido likes to use the I-phone type and I'm not convinced they're all that great. I've had excellent results with SSS speakers.
Ed, could Archer 'weld decals' provide the required fillet for the visible areas of the numberboards?
One approach I've seen described is to hog out the vertical bearing slots for the middle axle in these passenger trucks with one-piece sideframes, allowing the wheel to 'float' vertically and laterally without being able to twist relative to the gauge. This could then have a contact spring defining the 'downforce' on that axle, which would double as an effective non-powered-axle electrical pickup.
This might well be a solution applicable to a leading or trailing axle in a truck -- remove the drive-gear train to make that axle an 'idler' and position the contact downforce springs so they work 'around' the axle gear if you leave the disconnected wheel set intact. Something for at least consideration is whether stability for one of these trucks with lead or trailing axle removed or floating would be improved if the physical pivot point were moved inside the new 'effective wheelbase'.
All of this talk about a high fidelity model not being able to negotiate a typical model railroad curve takes me to the thought of a marriage destined for failure from the beginning.
I had a 50 foot boxcar with complex underbody rigging that prevented it from negotiating a 24 inch radius curve. While I blamed the manufacturer, in the end, what business do I have trying to marry the ideas of high fidelity models with low fidelity curves?
As someone mentioned, how many people who buy these models have actually run them yet? Plan to?,Yes. Have done it?, Hmmm.
Maybe we simply need to realize that more prototypically accurate models require more prototypically accurate curves.
PRR8259Well, perhaps we strayed after answering the question a couple pages back. However, discussion of how to fix trackwork to get the PA-1's (and other related passenger stuff) to operate well also has some merit. Sorry didn't bother to create another topic.
Nothing was directed at you, sorry if it sounded that way.
I started a new thread from a comment in this one, and it did not go well at all.
OvermodEd, could Archer 'weld decals' provide the required fillet for the visible areas of the numberboards?
I doubt that will work. No decal setting solution, even Daco Strong, works to soften the 3D effect of Archer decals. These work great on flat surfaces, but do not fill gaps.
DoughlessMaybe we simply need to realize that more prototypically accurate models require more prototypically accurate curves.
I guess that is true. Since I have conceded to 22" radius hidden curves I should just stick to what works.
I had to removed detail from a few things for them to work on layout #5.
Doughless All of this talk about a high fidelity model not being able to negotiate a typical model railroad curve takes me to the thought of a marriage destined for failure from the beginning. I had a 50 foot boxcar with complex underbody rigging that prevented it from negotiating a 24 inch radius curve. While I blamed the manufacturer, in the end, what business do I have trying to marry the ideas of high fidelity models with low fidelity curves? As someone mentioned, how many people who buy these models have actually run them yet? Plan to?,Yes. Have done it?, Hmmm. Maybe we simply need to realize that more prototypically accurate models require more prototypically accurate curves.
In one way or another I think I have been saying this for years.......
And then listening to all those who think I'm an arrogant snob rubbing their face the fact that I have 1000 sq ft (the old layout space) or 1500 sq ft (the new layout space) for my layout.
Which of course is not the case at all. I have friends and acquaintances in this hobby with much larger layouts then mine, and much smaller layouts than mine.
But the hard cold facts of physics suggest that the greatest satisfaction in this hobby comes from building a layout that actually works, no matter its size or complexity.
The great Paul Mallery lobbied for 48" curves as the recommended minimum for modeling Class I railroads - the modular guys took his advice.
Even my 36" minimum pales a little against that standard. And it is for that reason that even I restrict the length of rigid wheelbase steam locos I run, and I avoid 85' streamlined passenger cars, and I minimize the use of 80' heavyweights in favor of mostly shorter heavyweight cars (some selectively compressed, some not).
This allows me to reliably close couple cars and locos with working diaphragms.
My 36" minimum radius in areas were all locos and passneger cars might travel translates into many curves being in the 38" to 42" range and larger as an effect of the double track mainline and concentric curves for yard leads, branch routes and sidings.
Even I had to compromise from and original attempt to stay at 48" radius.
I kept the new layout as simple as possible to meet the stated goals, with 30" curves I could have packed in twice as much "complexity" and features.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless All of this talk about a high fidelity model not being able to negotiate a typical model railroad curve takes me to the thought of a marriage destined for failure from the beginning. I had a 50 foot boxcar with complex underbody rigging that prevented it from negotiating a 24 inch radius curve. While I blamed the manufacturer, in the end, what business do I have trying to marry the ideas of high fidelity models with low fidelity curves? As someone mentioned, how many people who buy these models have actually run them yet? Plan to?,Yes. Have done it?, Hmmm. Maybe we simply need to realize that more prototypically accurate models require more prototypically accurate curves. In one way or another I think I have been saying this for years....... And then listening to all those who think I'm an arrogant snob rubbing their face the fact that I have 1000 sq ft (the old layout space) or 1500 sq ft (the new layout space) for my layout. Which of course is not the case at all. I have friends and acquaintances in this hobby with much larger layouts then mine, and much smaller layouts than mine. But the hard cold facts of physics suggest that the greatest satisfaction in this hobby comes from building a layout that actually works, no matter its size or complexity. The great Paul Mallery lobbied for 48" curves as the recommended minimum for modeling Class I railroads - the modular guys took his advice. Even my 36" minimum pales a little against that standard. And it is for that reason that even I restrict the length of rigid wheelbase steam locos I run, and I avoid 85' streamlined passenger cars, and I minimize the use of 80' heavyweights in favor of mostly shorter heavyweight cars (some selectively compressed, some not). This allows me to reliably close couple cars and locos with working diaphragms. My 36" minimum radius in areas were all locos and passneger cars might travel translates into many curves being in the 38" to 42" range and larger as an effect of the double track mainline and concentric curves for yard leads, branch routes and sidings. Even I had to compromise from and original attempt to stay at 48" radius. I kept the new layout as simple as possible to meet the stated goals, with 30" curves I could have packed in twice as much "complexity" and features. Sheldon
Yes you have. You came to mind as I was typing it.
As I have mentioned in the recent past. I am done with spending time fiddling with stuff that doesn't work. Repositioning brake cylinders is no big deal, but trying to get a long fixed wheel based high-fidelity model to negotiate a curve that is far sharper than the prototype seems similar to someone choosing to sail against strong prevailing headwinds. Do you really want to work that hard? Its a hobby.
You compromised some fidelity in your passenger ops by using/making cars that are shorter. Still, you have to have broader than common curves also to make things work "correctly" (according to your standards).
I like modern railroading in a switching type of atmosphere. IMO, modern times tend to have longer cuts of similar cars. Because of the longer cuts but inherently sharp curves on our layouts, I make it work by trying to limit the predominate cars on my layout to 40 foot Corn Syrup/Molasses tank cars and two bay cement hoppers. These short cars still look better when I use #8 frogged turnouts.
I have generous space for that now. But I have learned that when/if we move to a place that has smaller layout space, I will keep the same principals by doing less. Things will have to look correct and working correctly without spending my hobby/retirement time fiddling with stuff that is inherently challenging to pull off.
Doing less (aka keeping it simple) increases the quality of time spent, IMO.
Doughless Doing less (aka keeping it simple) increases the quality of time spent, IMO.
And while I may be doing more than some, I am doing a LOT less than many would try to do in a space of my size.
A freight yard with 8 tracks 22' long is no more complex than one 12' long, but it is only half as complex as insisting on having 12' long yards at both ends of the mainline.
Kevin--
No worries. Thank you.
I do think this discussion got more interesting here as of late.
Overmod Ed, could Archer 'weld decals' provide the required fillet for the visible areas of the numberboards?
If there were some kind of backing in the gap that might work. Ideally I could find an HO scale caulking gun and a perfectly-matched color to "caulk" the gap. Squadron Green or equivalent would be too messy and I'm afraid a total repaint would be in order after attempting something like that.
NYC_PA-4203-number by Edmund, on Flickr
I'm sure with the passage of time I'll grow to ignore it. In the meantime, Photoshop works
NYC_PA-4203-number-edit by Edmund, on Flickr
Here's a look at a former Santa Fe PA and how the numberboard feathers into the contour of the nose:
Profile in Elegance: D&H PA-1 #16 at Hagerstown Yards, February 5, 1972 by Steve Baldwin, on Flickr
SeeYou190I guess that is true. Since I have conceded to 22" radius hidden curves I should just stick to what works. I had to removed detail from a few things for them to work on layout #5. -Kevin
I certainly did not want to suggest anything negative about anybody else's choices. I was recounting the days that I would spend knocking my head against a wall trying to fix something, then realizing that what I was trying to do was something that inherently was challenging in the first place.
Seems like a person has to plan to have a PA more than other types of locos. I suppose if you want to have a 2-10-0 too, its not something that you just buy casually and expect it to work correctly. I would never have thought any diesel locomotive would have to be thought about like that too.
gmpullmanIdeally I could find an HO scale caulking gun.
Maybe a survey is in order... How much would you pay for an HO scale caulking gun? I have wished for one so many times.
DoughlessI certainly did not want to suggest anything negative about anybody else's choices.
Having 22" radius curves was a tough choice. To fit everything else into the available space... and have a 3 track U-turn at one end of the layout, the inner track had to drop to 22" on the curve.
Figuring out what I needed to have, and the compromises to achieve that, was a hard process.
If my budget was extravagent, I could have done anything, but I am trying so hard not to ever have a real job again.
DoughlessI suppose if you want to have a 2-10-0 too, its not something that you just buy casually and expect it to work correctly.
That is very true.
Furtunately I finally found one of those "Unicorn Rare" IHC 2-10-2 locomotives in undecorated. It will run through a 22" radius S curve as smooth as can be.
-Photograph by Kevin Parson
Every locomotive I buy is a dice-roll.
Yes, the glaring gap around the ill-fitting nose numberboard...well, I saw it right away, and that combined with other issues, some discussed in the last several pages, and others perhaps not, is specifically why I have not been able to bring myself to buy more PA-1's. Some things just cannot be unseen.
CA could be used to fill the gap around the number boards. Apply small drops with a very fine wire. I've done that to fill the gap around the dome on a resin tank car kit.
Matching touch up paint can be had by rubbing a paint brush with some MEK or lacquer thinner on a hidden painted area of the shell.
mvlandswCA could be used to fill the gap around the number boards.
I've been using several types of PVA "canopy cement" for many tasks that I formerly would have used CA or "super-glue".
There are times when CA is the right choice but I've had much more success with the PVA. One of my favorites is the Faller Expert Laser cement.
The one in the middle here:
Glue_bottle by Edmund, on Flickr
It is thin enough that it will flow into the gap yet if any gets on the paint surface a slightly dampened lint free cloth will wipe it away. It can be removed after it sets using a toothpick or other semi-rigid scraper. I've had some bad cases of CA fogging the surrounding area and in a prominant spot like these number boards I wouldn't want to risk that.
Being a long-time NYC modeler I have lots of various grays on hand. Touch-up souldn't be a problem.
Thanks for the suggestion. Presently I have the shell removed so I might just have a go at it
I'm definately in agreement with the "canopy glue" option. I rarely use anything else - it can't be beat for its combination of strength and forgiviness.
If you are not happy with the Rapido PA/PB and/or prefer brass, Jack Vansworth of Division Point announced in his latest newsletter that the Alco PA/PB project is "back on the table". Estimated retail price (gulp) $2,700 A/B (and that is for DC).
Well, I finally got my units. I got both an AB set and a single A. I took them to be certified to run on the museum layout (Colorado Model Railroad Musuem) last Saturday (10/1) and took them on a maiden run. The detail on the units is really good. Indeed they have road specific items. Mine are painted Santa Fe with the details as they appear to been in the early 1960s.
The drive is smooth, silky, and quiet. Despite that, the front truck on each unit is loose and wobbles on the track. One A unit is so bad that the whole locomotive duck walks down the track. I've contacted the vendor to get a replacement or a refund.
The finish is good except each A unit has a tiny "mark" in the paint on the nose. I assume it is where some machine picks up the unit during the assembly process. One of the units also has some variances on the yellow nose decal where it looks like it did not properly integrate into the base paint. Fortunately this is the same unit that wobbles, so a replacement will kill both issues with one transaction.
The units have ESU sound, so operating them will take some getting used to, or I'll have to reprogram them to move functions to match what most other vendors use.
Over all I like them. I will use them to pull my heavy weight California Limited, and a very long San Francisco Chief, but I am questioning if the great detail is worth the price. I do not know if I would purchase them again. Could get a lot of other stuff for the same $.
Waiting on the main at Quartz Mountain.
A panned shot approaching Sprague.
Well, it has been a few weeks for me, and I've gotten some break-in time on my one NKP unit, and it is a bit of a growler. It seems like the wheelsets in the trucks just make a lot of noise while rotating. It hasn't really gotten quieter. I don't think it is a gear issue because the noises are not constant but intermittent, and if it was a gear issue it would be all the time. I have lubricated the axle bearings and that did not seem to help at all.
Since this purchase I have received a Walthers Proto CB&Q E-9A, a Walthers Proto ATSF F-7A, and a BLI PRR E-8A (Paragon 3, 2018 production). All three units run quieter than the Rapido PA-1 unit that I have, and they did so pretty much right out of the box without my needing to do anything to them.
On this club layout with generous curves, they certainly look impressive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVmQNK2wnAc
These are stock models, just with window shades added in the cab and a bit of weathering. Looking at my own PA/PB set, there is a gap of less than 1 mm between the diaphragms of the A and B unit on straight track. In the video (3 ft rule), this is barely noticable. The only thing I still do not like are the windshield windows (go to 3:38 in the video). They look like inch-thick windows in high-security trucks. But that is a truly minor complaint. Well done, Rapido.
I know I have complained about the apparent "thickness" of the windshield windows of the Rapido PA. It was explained this was necessary to make the windows flush with the frame. I have to admit that Rapido's solution is far superior to that offered by the Walthers PAs ("newly-tooled") for the COSF where the window glass is now a scale foot too far into the window opening. A picture is worth a thousand words - see below. I should add, the MSRP for the Rapido and the Walthers units is comparable.
Well, here's another issue that I cannot un-see:
The Walthers Proto PA-1 does a better job to my eyes of modeling the frame around the outside of the cab windows but underneath the trim strip that comes up and over the front of the cab.
It's clearly visible in the photo shown of the SP units above, and that detail looks ok.
Rapido did a 3D scan of the restored "NKP" former ATSF unit. That unit appears based on photos I've seen to NOT match the other PA's from years ago. Rapido's model seems to match the restored unit. The "before" photos reveal the PA's to have been pretty badly mangled prior to restoration.
So a prospective buyer has a choice:
Have the window frames (or perhaps better explained as the flat area around the outside of the openings) looking more like the prototypes looked years ago, but put up with the too-far-inset windshield.
OR
Have better looking front windows but with what appears to be window exterior metal work that only matches the restored NKP unit.
I personally would order the Walthers Proto units. Others might choose differently.
I will credit the Rapido PA for getting me more interested in modeling or attempting to model passenger trains, and as a result of some of the issues with the Rapido PA, I have decided that I really prefer the E and F units more than Alco PA's.
I am getting one of the Rapido Amtrak special edition E-8's (when my local store's order from the distributor gets big enough for free shipping) and I have two of the Rapido/Heartland special edition late PRR E-8's pre-ordered. All three of these units will not have the incorrectly modeled by Rapido portholes, so I will avoid that issue (which people on other forums are indeed making a big deal out of--because Rapido was notified and chose not to fix it).