Three feet veiwing, that is pretty far, most of my layout is to be veiwed at less than two feet and a lot of viewing is less than a foot.
My concern is for that 12 year old kid like I was once. Pick an imaginary item from 50 years ago, and versions of it sold for from $1 to $10. And now the same item ranges from $10 to $100. For argument sake call that about the same with inflation. Where I worry is that 50 years ago we could buy them for $1 to $10. But looking at advertising and magazine coverage, it appears today, the recent offerings mainly concentrate on the $40 to $100 part of the range.
$100US maybe. My only two DCC locos, both new in box old stock, at a show that our club sponsored, cost me $200CAN each.
rrebell Three feet veiwing, that is pretty far, most of my layout is to be veiwed at less than two feet and a lot of viewing is less than a foot.
I think that you will find that 3' is pretty typical for larger layouts.
How high is your layout? How deep is your scenery?
Close up viewing is fine for small layouts, with shallow scenery, it does not work so well for large layouts that intend to depict mainline operations with 40-50 car trains.
Track on my new layout will range in height from 40" to 50", and most scenic views will be at least 3' deep, some will be much deeper. Virtually all trackage will be in the front 30" but some "distant trains" will be visible 4-5 feet in the back ground in a few places.
Three feet is only your arms length away. If the trackage is 45" from the floor, and 18" from the edge of the table, and I am walking along with my train with my wireless throttle, my eyes are going to be 36" from the train more or less most of the time. Especially if I am keeping my eyes on 40 cars which is about 20' long.
Take a look again at my trackplan keeping in mind that the aisle in front of the yard is 4' wide for a sense of scale.
I for one have no interest in building a layout with a higher viewing height - tried that once too, hated it like I hated the multi deck thing.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell Three feet veiwing, that is pretty far, most of my layout is to be veiwed at less than two feet and a lot of viewing is less than a foot. I think that you will find that 3' is pretty typical for larger layouts. How high is your layout? How deep is your scenery? Close up viewing is fine for small layouts, with shallow scenery, it does not work so well for large layouts that intend to depict mainline operations with 40-50 car trains. Track on my new layout will range in height from 40" to 50", and most scenic views will be at least 3' deep, some will be much deeper. Virtually all trackage will be in the front 30" but some "distant trains" will be visible 4-5 feet in the back ground in a few places. Three feet is only your arms length away. If the trackage is 45" from the floor, and 18" from the edge of the table, and I am walking along with my train with my wireless throttle, my eyes are going to be 36" from the train more or less most of the time. Especially if I am keeping my eyes on 40 cars which is about 20' long. Take a look again at my trackplan keeping in mind that the aisle in front of the yard is 4' wide for a sense of scale. I for one have no interest in building a layout with a higher viewing height - tried that once too, hated it like I hated the multi deck thing. Sheldon
Almost all of my scenes are at least 3' deep but I keep most of my track within 18" of the aisle. The exception is my large classification yard which forces both mainline track and spurs near the backdrop. If I have to reach that track, that's what step stools are for. The base height for my layout is 48" and the mainline doesn't rise above 52". There is a section of the branchline which rises to 54" but the track is very close to the aisle in that section so it's an easy reach.
Enzoamps My concern is for that 12 year old kid like I was once. Pick an imaginary item from 50 years ago, and versions of it sold for from $1 to $10. And now the same item ranges from $10 to $100. For argument sake call that about the same with inflation. Where I worry is that 50 years ago we could buy them for $1 to $10. But looking at advertising and magazine coverage, it appears today, the recent offerings mainly concentrate on the $40 to $100 part of the range.
My inflation calculator tells me you have to go back to 1958 to find when the dollar was worth ten times what it is now. A 12 year old kid is not going to have it any harder today than 50 years ago because the average kid is going to have the same buying power now as back then. It's no harder or easier today to afford a layout now than 50 years ago.
I think there are going to be fewer 12 year olds interested in model railroading than back then. That's because they have so many more things to occupy their free time, particularly electronics. I don't see that as good or bad. I really don't care if model railroading has become an old man's hobby because I am an old man (70). If there aren't many kids interested in the hobby, I see no reason to encourage them. Everyone has different interests and there is no reason somebody else's should be the same as mine regardless of age.
John-NYBWIf there aren't many kids interested in the hobby, I see no reason to encourage them.
The only benefit of more young people in the hobby is the theory that more products will be available due to a wider audience.
I already have everything I need, and will be buying very little, so I would get no benefit, unless they all want to buy undecorated freight cars.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Because, at 270 feet away (3 foot HO viewing distance) it captures the look pretty well.
Because, at 270 feet away (3 foot HO viewing distance) it captures the look pretty well.
I'm another one of those where a 3 foot viewing distance wouldn't work. The main section of my railyard isn't even that deep! (A couple of hollow-core closet doors that are older than I am.) Then going to the right (west) the corner is maybe that deep at the far point but the next section again isn't that deep. It is a piece that is a half sheet of plywood the long way. (2' x 8') To the left (east) of the yard, there are a few places that meet the 3' rule but that's only because there's a lake that "blocks" getting closer for general viewing.
riogrande5761 Free lancing has never been something I wanted to do. One down side is you need something I have very little of what I have: hobby time. Because you need to custom paint alot of models. So you also need good paint and decal skills, not something all of us can brag about or actually want to do. But wonderfully, there are a lot of accurate models that we can enjoy these days so both bases are covered.
Free lancing has never been something I wanted to do. One down side is you need something I have very little of what I have: hobby time. Because you need to custom paint alot of models. So you also need good paint and decal skills, not something all of us can brag about or actually want to do.
But wonderfully, there are a lot of accurate models that we can enjoy these days so both bases are covered.
I do both protolancing and prototype modeling so I cover both worlds as well.
Between the protolanced and the prototypes, I have probably completely painted/lettered a fair percentage of them. (I'm actually painting two hoppers right now as part of almost 2 dozen projects.) Another segment have been renumbered to avoid duplicates. The other large percentage have been rebuilt/kitbashed to match prototypes (and some of those were from the "toy" model category - Mantua/Tyco and Bachmann). I also have a fleet of older MDC Thrall gondolas that I did some minor reworking to match a different prototype.
I manage to squeeze modeling time in as I find it, even if it's just painting a section of a model that needs it. May not get much accomplished but it is something.
riogrande5761You need to custom paint alot of models. So you also need good paint and decal skills, not something all of us can brag about or actually want to do.
Or... you can just fake your way through it, that works for me.
John-NYBW Enzoamps My concern is for that 12 year old kid like I was once. Pick an imaginary item from 50 years ago, and versions of it sold for from $1 to $10. And now the same item ranges from $10 to $100. For argument sake call that about the same with inflation. Where I worry is that 50 years ago we could buy them for $1 to $10. But looking at advertising and magazine coverage, it appears today, the recent offerings mainly concentrate on the $40 to $100 part of the range. My inflation calculator tells me you have to go back to 1958 to find when the dollar was worth ten times what it is now. A 12 year old kid is not going to have it any harder today than 50 years ago because the average kid is going to have the same buying power now as back then. It's no harder or easier today to afford a layout now than 50 years ago. I think there are going to be fewer 12 year olds interested in model railroading than back then. That's because they have so many more things to occupy their free time, particularly electronics. I don't see that as good or bad. I really don't care if model railroading has become an old man's hobby because I am an old man (70). If there aren't many kids interested in the hobby, I see no reason to encourage them. Everyone has different interests and there is no reason somebody else's should be the same as mine regardless of age.
rrebell John-NYBW Enzoamps My concern is for that 12 year old kid like I was once. Pick an imaginary item from 50 years ago, and versions of it sold for from $1 to $10. And now the same item ranges from $10 to $100. For argument sake call that about the same with inflation. Where I worry is that 50 years ago we could buy them for $1 to $10. But looking at advertising and magazine coverage, it appears today, the recent offerings mainly concentrate on the $40 to $100 part of the range. My inflation calculator tells me you have to go back to 1958 to find when the dollar was worth ten times what it is now. A 12 year old kid is not going to have it any harder today than 50 years ago because the average kid is going to have the same buying power now as back then. It's no harder or easier today to afford a layout now than 50 years ago. I think there are going to be fewer 12 year olds interested in model railroading than back then. That's because they have so many more things to occupy their free time, particularly electronics. I don't see that as good or bad. I really don't care if model railroading has become an old man's hobby because I am an old man (70). If there aren't many kids interested in the hobby, I see no reason to encourage them. Everyone has different interests and there is no reason somebody else's should be the same as mine regardless of age. No there are just as many 12 year olds interested in trains but the proublem is the population has doubled in that time so the percentage has dropped by 1/2.
No there are just as many 12 year olds interested in trains but the proublem is the population has doubled in that time so the percentage has dropped by 1/2.
When I was 12, 13, 14 (started working in the local hobby shop at 14), there were not many other kids I knew who where REALLY interested in model trains. We had a teen club for a while - 5 kids in a junior high school with 1500 students. At ages 15-18, in a high school of 3,000 (10th, 11th, 12thd grades) there might have been 8-10 that I knew.
I remenber working in the hobby shop (two different ones from age 14 to 24) that most of my train customers where men between 30 and 60.
Having a train set on a 4x8 at age 12 and loosing interest by age 15 was typical, and I suspect the lifetime percentage who returned to the hobby was less than 50%, maybe less than 25%.
That was in the 1970's......
Like John, I have no intention of trying to "save" todays youth from their video games. My grandson does have some interest in the new upcoming layout - we will see. But if not, that's fine.
rrebell ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell Three feet veiwing, that is pretty far, most of my layout is to be veiwed at less than two feet and a lot of viewing is less than a foot. I think that you will find that 3' is pretty typical for larger layouts. How high is your layout? How deep is your scenery? Close up viewing is fine for small layouts, with shallow scenery, it does not work so well for large layouts that intend to depict mainline operations with 40-50 car trains. Track on my new layout will range in height from 40" to 50", and most scenic views will be at least 3' deep, some will be much deeper. Virtually all trackage will be in the front 30" but some "distant trains" will be visible 4-5 feet in the back ground in a few places. Three feet is only your arms length away. If the trackage is 45" from the floor, and 18" from the edge of the table, and I am walking along with my train with my wireless throttle, my eyes are going to be 36" from the train more or less most of the time. Especially if I am keeping my eyes on 40 cars which is about 20' long. Take a look again at my trackplan keeping in mind that the aisle in front of the yard is 4' wide for a sense of scale. I for one have no interest in building a layout with a higher viewing height - tried that once too, hated it like I hated the multi deck thing. Sheldon Fair question, new layout is in a 11x12 room but my old layout was over 15'x30' and a large dogbone. Both had arround a max two foot depth with anything deeper being hidden. Current layout is around 34" high, last was 36". I am only 5'6" so this is perfect for me in my desk chair or standing.
Fair question, new layout is in a 11x12 room but my old layout was over 15'x30' and a large dogbone. Both had arround a max two foot depth with anything deeper being hidden. Current layout is around 34" high, last was 36". I am only 5'6" so this is perfect for me in my desk chair or standing.
OK, I get that, but I want to model more than just what is 90' feet from the tracks.
I am 6' tall, 45" is a good trackside view if I sit down and a good panoramic view standing.
Looking at my track plan, the open aisle behind the yard and passenger station, will actually be urban scenery liftouts covering that aisle so that scene will be from 5 to 11 feet deep.
Look, there is nothing wrong with smaller industrial switching based layouts, I am just interested in more than that.
Again, if you look at my plan, half the layout has the yard and industries up close to the edge for that purpose, the rest is eye candy for long trains at mainline speeds.
I like switching, but not enough for that to be the sole purpose of the layout.
15 x30 is a good size, but still only 1/3 of what I am building. Yet I will have many sq feet of scenery, with no tracks, no railroad related features, etc.
It the space I have, if used 2' deep benchwork and 30" curves, I could have 3 times the trackage, turnouts, railroad "features", etc - that is not the goal.
The goal is for a 50 car train to look realistic, as well as have prototypical operations, dramatic scenery and display operation.
rrebell John-NYBW Enzoamps My concern is for that 12 year old kid like I was once. I think there are going to be fewer 12 year olds interested in model railroading than back then. No there are just as many 12 year olds interested in trains but the proublem is the population has doubled in that time so the percentage has dropped by 1/2.
John-NYBW Enzoamps My concern is for that 12 year old kid like I was once. I think there are going to be fewer 12 year olds interested in model railroading than back then.
Enzoamps My concern is for that 12 year old kid like I was once.
My concern is for that 12 year old kid like I was once.
I think there are going to be fewer 12 year olds interested in model railroading than back then.
First, we don't know the number of 12 year olds interested in trains then and now.
Second, if there are just as many 12 year olds interested in trains now as then in absolute numbers, but the percentage has dropped by 1/2 as the overall population has doubled, then the interest of 12 year olds has declined by 50%. So, there would not be as many 12 year olds now interested in trains as then. There would only be half as many.
Third, the overall U.S. population has doubled from 165,000,000 in 1953 to 330,000,000 in 2022. The percentage of 12 year olds has nearly doubled from then to now. There were approximately 2,266,000 12-year olds in 1953 compared to 4,266,000 in 2022.
Rich
Alton Junction
John-NYBW I think there are going to be fewer 12 year olds interested in model railroading than back then. That's because they have so many more things to occupy their free time, particularly electronics. I don't see that as good or bad. I really don't care if model railroading has become an old man's hobby because I am an old man (70). If there aren't many kids interested in the hobby, I see no reason to encourage them. Everyone has different interests and there is no reason somebody else's should be the same as mine regardless of age.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Like John, I have no intention of trying to "save" todays youth from their video games. My grandson does have some interest in the new upcoming layout - we will see. But if not, that's fine.
I play golf, none of my kids do. I went to to law school and became a lawyer, none of my kids did. I have model railroading as a hobby, none of my kids do.
If today's adolescents want to take up model railroading, that's great. But, if they don't want to take up model railroading, I could care less. If a segment of model railroaders want to spend their time worrying about how to interest today's kids in model railroading, all the more power to them, but I don't spend one minute of my time worrying about it.
No need to worry. Two things:
1) What you get for you money these days is 10 times better, more detailed and accurate.
2) But if that isn't appealing to you, there are still lots of older, less detailed kits you can find in the 10-15 dollar price range. Accurail makes kits for about $15 give or take and you can find a lot of kits for less at train shows.
Much less than 2 feet and many of us would need reading glasses. I'd rather not view my trains with reading glasses. Just sayin ...
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
When I was a kit, when I was very young every boy had a train set but that was the mid 50's, by the 60's they were gone for most kids including myself, much more fun to explore the world. Got back into trains when Postage Stamp trains came out but that didn't last long. Then got back in when I retired for the first time at 29, got bored not working even though I was newly married and the wife accully encuraged me.
rrebellWhen I was a kit,
Who put you together and how long did it take them? How much did you cost and was that a discounted price?
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
richhotrain There are a few flaws in your logic. First, we don't know the number of 12 year olds interested in trains then and now. Second, if there are just as many 12 year olds interested in trains now as then in absolute numbers, but the percentage has dropped by 1/2 as the overall population has doubled, then the interest of 12 year olds has declined by 50%. So, there would not be as many 12 year olds now interested in trains as then. There would only be half as many. Third, the overall U.S. population has doubled from 165,000,000 in 1953 to 330,000,000 in 2022. The percentage of 12 year olds has nearly doubled from then to now. There were approximately 2,266,000 12-year olds in 1953 compared to 4,266,000 in 2022. Rich
There are a few flaws in your logic.
While looking at this from a quantitative perspective is interesting, we should consider how communications and small manufacturing have changed the game. With on-line shopping, both used and new, buying and selling hobby items has become a lot more efficient, even when numbers are low. In other words, it is possible to enjoy very niche hobbies thanks to online purchasing, not to mention communities like this one. So like others have said, I don't care if only 5% of kids today are interested in trains. Like many other things, it's become a niche hobby for everyone, and that's not an issue.
And to go back to the original question, when I was a kid in the '70s, there was a lot Tyco stuff in the department stores, but the really good stuff was only available in hobby shops at high prices. Today, we can find pretty much all we want online, in a much wider range. New, old, cheap, expensive, half broken, etc. With patience and discipline, a lot can be done with a limited budget.
Simon
BATMAN rrebell When I was a kit, Who put you together and how long did it take them? How much did you cost and was that a discounted price?
rrebell When I was a kit,
richhotrain BATMAN rrebell When I was a kit, Who put you together and how long did it take them? How much did you cost and was that a discounted price? I was scratchbuilt. Rich
I was scratchbuilt.
So was I, except they used parts out of the junk box and the wrong glue to boot!
Blue Light Special, perhaps?
There are quite a few train simulators and video games out there that allow you to build model railroads virtually and run them. No reason video games and model trains have to be exclusive.
Sorry for the typo, though compaired to most, I guess I just never fit the mold. I have always been a rebel, even back to elimentery school where at around 7-8 I thew away my glasses (I have a lazy eye) among other things that I did.
riogrande5761 Much less than 2 feet and many of us would need reading glasses. I'd rather not view my trains with reading glasses. Just sayin ...
Agreed, for me 12"-14" is the current reading glasses threshold.
But more importantly, I did not pick HO scale so I could view the trains only from 12" (87 scale feet).
I picked HO scale to get the panoramic view.
If my primary interest was that "intimate" experiance of standing track side, I would have at the very least picked two rail O Scale or some larger scale.
MJ4562 Blue Light Special, perhaps? There are quite a few train simulators and video games out there that allow you to build model railroads virtually and run them. No reason video games and model trains have to be exclusive.
Is this a reference to the current interests of young people? My grandson has tried to teach me how to play modern video games - I am a complete failure.....
But he likes model trains.....
ATLANTIC CENTRAL MJ4562 Blue Light Special, perhaps? There are quite a few train simulators and video games out there that allow you to build model railroads virtually and run them. No reason video games and model trains have to be exclusive. Is this a reference to the current interests of young people? My grandson has tried to teach me how to play modern video games - I am a complete failure..... But he likes model trains..... Sheldon
Yeah, but but I know I wasn't very clear and changed subjects midstream just like I do to my wife/and she to me....
With regard to video games and young people, I've been noticing some really detailed games featuring trains coming out recently. That tells me that younger people still enjoy trains. Also train simulators allowing you to run real trains or on a model railroad are a big thing now too. I think that's where most kids today will develop their interest in trains. That's what I meant to say.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL riogrande5761 Much less than 2 feet and many of us would need reading glasses. I'd rather not view my trains with reading glasses. Just sayin ... Agreed, for me 12"-14" is the current reading glasses threshold. But more importantly, I did not pick HO scale so I could view the trains only from 12" (87 scale feet). I picked HO scale to get the panoramic view. If my primary interest was that "intimate" experiance of standing track side, I would have at the very least picked two rail O Scale or some larger scale. Sheldon
snjroy we should consider how communications and small manufacturing have changed the game. With on-line shopping, both used and new, buying and selling hobby items has become a lot more efficient, even when numbers are low. In other words, it is possible to enjoy very niche hobbies thanks to online purchasing, not to mention communities like this one. So like others have said, I don't care if only 5% of kids today are interested in trains. Like many other things, it's become a niche hobby for everyone, and that's not an issue. And to go back to the original question, when I was a kid in the '70s, there was a lot Tyco stuff in the department stores, but the really good stuff was only available in hobby shops at high prices. Today, we can find pretty much all we want online, in a much wider range. New, old, cheap, expensive, half broken, etc. With patience and discipline, a lot can be done with a limited budget. Simon
we should consider how communications and small manufacturing have changed the game. With on-line shopping, both used and new, buying and selling hobby items has become a lot more efficient, even when numbers are low. In other words, it is possible to enjoy very niche hobbies thanks to online purchasing, not to mention communities like this one. So like others have said, I don't care if only 5% of kids today are interested in trains. Like many other things, it's become a niche hobby for everyone, and that's not an issue.
I almost exclusively get hobby supplies online as I don't have a close shop. I do get my wire offline occasionally as my local NAPA has a reasonable selection for what I need.
Even now I have a bunch of old Tyco and toy level Bachmann items that I have rehabbed to better runners. I even have some old (older than I am) AHM U-boats that are good runners.
rrebell ATLANTIC CENTRAL riogrande5761 Much less than 2 feet and many of us would need reading glasses. I'd rather not view my trains with reading glasses. Just sayin ... Agreed, for me 12"-14" is the current reading glasses threshold. But more importantly, I did not pick HO scale so I could view the trains only from 12" (87 scale feet). I picked HO scale to get the panoramic view. If my primary interest was that "intimate" experiance of standing track side, I would have at the very least picked two rail O Scale or some larger scale. Sheldon I would have to but don't have the space.
I would have to but don't have the space.
If I had it to do over again, I think I would opt for S scale. To me it is the ideal size. The drawback is there is a lot less merchandise available for S. It doesn't matter because I have far too much invested in HO to consider switching scales at this point in my life.
MJ4562 ATLANTIC CENTRAL MJ4562 Blue Light Special, perhaps? There are quite a few train simulators and video games out there that allow you to build model railroads virtually and run them. No reason video games and model trains have to be exclusive. Is this a reference to the current interests of young people? My grandson has tried to teach me how to play modern video games - I am a complete failure..... But he likes model trains..... Sheldon Yeah, but but I know I wasn't very clear and changed subjects midstream just like I do to my wife/and she to me.... With regard to video games and young people, I've been noticing some really detailed games featuring trains coming out recently. That tells me that younger people still enjoy trains. Also train simulators allowing you to run real trains or on a model railroad are a big thing now too. I think that's where most kids today will develop their interest in trains. That's what I meant to say.
I haven't looked into virtual model railroading but I can see lots of advantages. I just don't know how realistic looking the graphics are. I am amazed at what I see in other applications.