Hi all, I recently purchased an ALCO NYC K3q (for way too much I might add) and decided to challenge myself and attempt to get one of these running properly. Ive read that many people say to avoid this model at all costs. I was wondering two things:
1. what is exactly is wrong with the K3q model that I should be weary about? The build quality? solder joints? bad wheels? I plan to remotor and regear the engine so rest assured the drive wont be an issue.
2. I noticed that the K3q was made by Kobra models in Korea. Going through ALCO's catalog, I found that their PRR N2sa and PRR E5 were also made by them. Does anyone have any experience with these models? I seem to find a lot of ALCO E5s on ebay listed as damaged...I wonder if these also had a similar poor build quality.
Any information is appreciated!
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
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Charles,
I can't help you specifically on your K3q but I have an Alco Models NYC B-11L 0-6-0 switcher (ca 1977) and it runs beautifully. I wonder if it's a gear issue?
I have an Alco Models H20-44 and the gear towers operate poorly. I'd like to eventually convert it to Stanton drives.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
There was no redeeming quality to that locomotive the hobby shop I worked at sent both they got back to Alco Models.
The frame did not align from one side to the other which was one of its problems. The lack of quality of this locomotive was astounding. To be fair it was Alco Models first steam locomotive from a new builder but it was a ***. The only other locomotive as bad was the Hallmark StLSW 4-4-2 that is infamous for its poor quality.
Rick Jesionowski
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dti406 There was no redeeming quality to that locomotive the hobby shop I worked at sent both they got back to Alco Models. The frame did not align from one side to the other which was one of its problems. The lack of quality of this locomotive was astounding. To be fair it was Alco Models first steam locomotive from a new builder but it was a ***. The only other locomotive as bad was the Hallmark StLSW 4-4-2 that is infamous for its poor quality. Rick Jesionowski
Everytime I try to look up info on the issues of this model, all I get are people making general claims about lack of quality, with little actual or specific detail. All I got out of your message was that the frame wasent symmetrical, and I appreciate you providing that detail. Was there anything else? Bad insulation on drivers? not enough tolerance in the valve gear? Poor solder joints? etc.
Like for example, the Hallmark ICRR 2-8-0s are bad because many of them suffered zinc rot on their wheels.
Any additional or specific detail beyond the blanket statement of "this is a bad loco" is much appreciated!
Thanks,
I have never owned an Alco Models product, but I would stay away. They made their bones by offering a plethora of diesel units that nobody else did at that time, but in terms of quality they were "old brass". My impression is that detail level was below modern standards (you are best judge of what is acceptable) and the drive trains required considerable "tuning" (in some cases, rebuilding) to get them to operate decently. That was just accepted back in the Sixties and Seventies and the problem was not unique to Alco. The stuff from KMT was supposed to be particularly bad. But they were the only game in town if you wanted a particular loco, so with a choice of buying Alco or nothing, people bought.
Here's something about the K3q, "I did not own one but saw one, was an Alco Models import of the NYC K3q class Pacific. They would absolutely not run, the frame was like wet spaghetti and that caused all kinds of problems that no one could fix."
And another source, "the NYC K-3 Pacific was a piece of junk to be avoided at all costs.
Still another source said the drivers on the N2sa were "pot metal"
So, as the old saying goes, Caveat Emptor
I attended a train show yesterday and, while I wasn't particularly "shopping" for any brass, wouldn't you know, an NYC K-5b jumped right into my hands and said "please adopt me" — I couldn't say no. The price was just a bit more than a full tank of gas plus a Big Mack or two! ($125!)
NYC_K-5_Samhongsa-1 by Edmund, on Flickr
Some solder joints are a little sloppy but overall detail is great! I plopped it down on my test track and it ran as smooth as can be although with a bit of gear noise.
https://www.brasstrains.com/BrassGuide/Pdg/Detail/23552/HO-Steam-Non-Articulated-Sunset-Models-Pacific-New-York-Central-4-6-2-K-5B
I know it doesn't help you since you already bought the K-3 but for somke reason these Samhongsa 1977-era engines seem to be a real bargain right now.
NYC_K-5_Samhongsa by Edmund, on Flickr
Good luck with your project,
Cheers, Ed
BEAUSABRE - thanks, that was very helpful info. I was surprised myself that such late brass (1970s) would be so poorly made. I realize many people said Japan brass was way better than Korean brass...I guess I just didnt really believe it. I have only a handful of Korean (non samhongsa) brass models...two Hallmarks (ATSF 2507, 5000 class) that run flawlessly and have really fine (fragile) detail...and two KMT models imported by NJCB that are really solidly built although crude in detail (ATSF 1491, 1800 class). Guess I just assumed those who claimed korean brass was bad were just lying.
I still feel confident I can make this ALCO run well, but I'll definitely have to take a closer look at the frame. When they said "wet spaghetti", do they mean that the brass frame was soft?
GMpullman - that's an absolute steal! Yea I LOVE my NYC K5s, I actually have two, one pro painted for $203 and an unpainted (heavily damaged, restored & sold) for $120. Although I have some gripes with the K5b in terms of accuracy (the pilot sticks out too much, the boiler sits a tad too high), theyre awesome models. Ive recently gotten into NYC and want to focus on the powerhouses of the NYC fleet...beyond the cliche hudsons and niagaras. K3q was one on that list...its one of only three HO NYC pacific models besides the USRAs and the $1000+ Key brass models. The three being the bowser K11, Sunset K5b, and ALCO K3q. The K5b are excellent models...EXTREMELY detailed and both of mine run very smooth and quiet. It even has the sprung trailing truck...a feature usually only seen on high end brass! Only slight complaint is due to the leading truck design, the truck pivots from the first driver area, meaning the front wheels tend to like to hit the sides of the cylinders more. Still, it runs on my 19" curve section fine which is impressive.
I have no idea why but Ive been collecting an unbelievable amount of Sunset models lately...theyre good quality (samhongsa doesnt disappoint!), well detailed (less than Key but way more than Gem or etc), and super cheap...usually around the $150-250 range. Super nice yet affordable models! Got two PRR K4s, an M1a, and a Prestige B6sb. I gotta stop buying trains lol.Repair post for damaged K5 (before): https://www.instagram.com/p/CX7pRCONUEx(after): https://www.instagram.com/p/CX7rexCN6bW
Frame repair post for painted K5: https://www.instagram.com/p/CWq8_xAPtdE
Alright well I guess I'll see what I can do about the K3q...unfortunately I wont be home till august, so it'll just sit on my desk for the forseeable future.
Okay so after some examination of the engine here's what I came up with. VERY fortunately, this one has a good frame and there are no binds in the drive. Still, this engine is incomplete, and has the following issues:
1. missing tender stirrup step
2. leading truck screwhole piece fallen off
3. one running board loose
4. motor and gearbox faulty (expected)
5. boiler weight missing
VIDEO showing free-rolling chassis: https://i.imgur.com/uFNwmTr.mp4
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I want to emphasize how junk the stock Kobra gearbox and motor assembly is. The motor is a pancake motor disguised as a can, and the gearbox has transfer gears BEFORE the worm, which results in high friction and noise. There's a reason why the worm is usually the first gear in the drivetrain. It dramatically drops the speed, making the remaining gears run much quieter. Having two transfer gears placed in front is just terrible design. Another thing is the gear material. There's a rule in making gears, where the driving gear should always be made of a stronger material than the gear that's being driven, in order to reduce wear. While the transfer gears do follow this rule (the brass gear drives the plastic), the worm and worm gear are BOTH brass, which is a big no no. Overall, Im okay with this engine. I was planning to replace the gearbox and motor anyways with NWSL gears and a can motor, and as long as the drive is smooth, Im confident I can make this a solid model.
All joints will be resoldered, and recieve the usual treatment of repowering, painting, and DCC sound.
Wow! That's a BEAUTIFUL locomotive, Ed, and great price, too!!
I guess I'm glad I didn't go to Lakeland this past weekend. That one may have ended up in my roster had a caught a glimspe of it. I just LOVE those Elesco FWHs.
tstageI guess I'm glad I didn't go to Lakeland this past weekend.
Actually, I made a trek down to the train show at Mount Hope, Ohio, Tom. I had been there two years ago and had a great time and the vendors were definitely more "mom & pop" rather than commercial outfits.
It was a two hour drive for me but with an audio book playing time just breezed by
One other "score" was an Erie gas-electric made by Overland. I had missed out on one of these that came up on eBay when the bidding got to $700 I backed off. Wouldn't you know, the same fellow selling the K-5b had one, sans the green Overland box, for considerably less. There were only 200 made so I thought that was a pretty lucky find.
ERIE_Gas-electric by Edmund, on Flickr
ERIE_Gas-electric-broadside by Edmund, on Flickr
I actually rode in this car in Worthington, Ohio at the railroad museum there back when I was maybe eight or ten.
Erie_5012_MC by Edmund, on Flickr
I've already got a TCS KAT-22 decoder in it and other than a bit of gear noise, which actually sounds pretty close to a growling engine, it runs amazingly smooth for the tiny axle gear boxes it uses.
You done good, Ed. She's a beauty, too.
I agree with you. A little gear growl doesn't bother me much. As long as it runs smoothly - I'm good with it.
Make sure you service those axle gear boxes. I have had more than one OMI drive with nearly bone dry axle gear boxes and once relubricated, the model quieted down quite a bit. I scorred 3 trollies at a show in Urbana IL today myself. All brass, two are from Fairfield Traction models and one is from MTS. All were like new in the box, even the trolley poles have not been installed ever. The smaller Fairfield car has a nicely made up motor mount with a Swiss coreless motor and a flywheel/springbelt pully that was custom turned on a lathe. Just purrs when I put power to it, unlike the open frame motor in the other Farifield car. Got the pair of Fairfields for $75 for both and $250 for the much newer MTS import.
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
emdmike Make sure you service those axle gear boxes. I have had more than one OMI drive with nearly bone dry axle gear boxes and once relubricated, the model quieted down quite a bit. I scorred 3 trollies at a show in Urbana IL today myself. All brass, two are from Fairfield Traction models and one is from MTS. All were like new in the box, even the trolley poles have not been installed ever. The smaller Fairfield car has a nicely made up motor mount with a Swiss coreless motor and a flywheel/springbelt pully that was custom turned on a lathe. Just purrs when I put power to it, unlike the open frame motor in the other Farifield car. Got the pair of Fairfields for $75 for both and $250 for the much newer MTS import.
Hey! I was actually at the Urbana train show myself! I saw those three trolleys and saw that they were gone by the end of the show haha. Even asked the seller if one buyer bought all three. I knew those three trolleys looked familiar from somewhere...
I was managing the IRC booth with the HO free-mo modules toward the west wing near the live steam setup. Was there all day Saturday. Walked around three times, but didnt find anything interesting to me, everything appeared to be overpriced.
I was with the live steam G scale group at the far end of the mall. Just down from the gentleman with the trollies. He had 4 of them. He was selling them for a friend. I saw them when I first got there, but he didnt have prices yet from his buddy. Once he got him on the phone, his friend wanted $75 for the pair of Fairfield cars(a CSL Pullman and a Pittsburg Jones car), which is an outright steal. I bought them on the spot. The much newer run MTS CSL Nearside was $250. Late in the day I sold my O gauge live steamer to a gentleman and I went back and got that car as it has an underfloor drive with 8 wheel pickup and all wheel drive, which is unusual on a trolley. All of them run really nice after I serviced things and added ground wire jumpers to the trucks on the MTS car. I say there was about about half the dealers one usually see's at this show, once the craft people bailed out around noon/1pm, that one leg from the center was nearly empty except for the kiddie hand car circle of track. That was a bit disapointing. Other than the trollies, I saw nothing else of interest and prices were a bit high on other stuff.