I have started aquiring stuff in American OO, which is NOT the same as UK OO trains, in preparation to build a retro layout. For those not versed in the early years of electric trains prior to WWII, we had both HO and OO here in the USA. It was thought that small electric motors of that era were not up to task in HO scale, but in slightly larger OO, the motors were more robust. The two scales competed for modelers attention, in the end HO with its greater standardization won the battle. But during the short heyday of OO just before and just after WWII, there were several big companies making trains. The likes of Scale Craft, Nason, Mantua, Tru-Scale, Midlin, Famoco and of coarse Lionel(in both 2 and 3 rail). Trains could be center rail AC, 2 rail AC or DC or outside 3rd rail with either voltage. It was the lack of standardization that hurt OO. I have 2 locomotives, a Scale Craft 4-6-0, I believe modeled after a Maine Central prototype and a Lionel NYC J1e Hudson, both are 2 rail AC powered engines.
The biggest hurdle isnt so much finding the trains themselves, its track. Options are limited. In 2 rail one can use On3 flex track and turnouts as the gauge is the same for American OO. Lionel track is salty and highly collectable/sought after. Gargraves makes both 2 and 3 rail but its the same rails as S gauge, so very much "Hi Rail" looking and no turnouts are made to match. Vintage track from Tru-Scale, Scale Craft and Midlin sometimes turns up at shows or on ebay. Most OO modelers just use On3 track and shorten the tie length a bit, once ballested it looks pretty good, or one could hand lay track(yuck). Since my 4x7 table doesnt really fit an of the vintage radius track, I plan to use the On3 flex track. I would love to use Tru-Scale, but the their tighest diameter is 48" that I have found in OO, and its quite hard to find as well. Anybody else out there messing around with very old OO models other than John E that writes a nice blog/website about it? Its a unique scale, and the hunt to find models is half of the fun, followed by marveling at what was being made even before the big war. Just looking at the detail of a full scale Lionel OO Hudson is jaw dropping when one remembers just how old that model is. Here are a couple pics of my SC 4-6-0. One with the tender apart and the motor gearbox assemble undergoing servicing. It is AC powered and the manual reverse unit is in the tender with a lever sticking out the back of the coal bunker, has a center off position so the engine can be parked on live track. Some modelers fit a rectifier in the tender so the engine can run on DC power, but I plan to use AC power on my layout.
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Mike: this is all interesting. Thank you for sharing the picture of the locomotive and tender with the shells removed.
I had never heard of "American OO" before.
I have enjoyed your other projects, and I am looking forward to updates on this one.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Not a problem, if you want to "kill" some time reading more about American OO trains, here is a link to a great website. He also has some videos on youtube of his models running on his OO layout. Its a neat part of the infancy of scale model railroading in scales smaller than O scale. All starting in those years between the great depression and the start of WWII. Its really fasicnating to me and hunting done these antique models, getting them running again(they make lots of ozone when running..love that smell) Here is the link: https://americanootoday.com/?cat=17 Here is a pic of HO track VS Lionel 3 rail OO to show the gauge differance.
British OO started about the same time as American OO, Same 1:76th scale ratio but the Brits used more common HO track, so the scale/track gauge is incorrect and remains this way to this day. But with the overall smaller size of the UK prototypes, they fit in well on a USA HO layout. Its only if you put a HO and a OO model of the same loco side by side that the difference is apparent. So UK OO like from Bachmann Branchlines, Hornby and others will run on your HO layouts. But American OO models will not. Mike
I've heard of OO but didn't realize there was a British and American version of it. These obscure, largely forgotten scales are interesting but building a layout in one seems like it would be quite the task. I suppose you could hand lay track but I would never attempt to do that no matter what scale I was modeling in. Seems like a lot of work for little benefit.
Speaking of obscure, forgotten scales, wasn't there a TT scale that lost out to N scale. I think it was 120:1 as opposed to 160:1. About halfway between N and HO.
Getting back to track, I never could understand 3 rail track. Even when I was barely old enough to remember it seemed odd to me. I knew real railroads had two rails (yes, I know about third rail electric). Having a third rail running down the middle just didn't look right. My very first trainset was 3 rail (probably Lionel). When I got a little older I got an American Flyer set for Christmas and that seemed so much better. For some reason I wasn't bothered by the fact it had only four ties per section of track or that the track was self supporting between piers on the over-and-under figure 8.
TT is still alive as it was what was available during the cold war in eastern block countries.
It's one of the good things about this hobby that there can be so many diverse interests. I like the convenience and product availability of HO but if someone wants to take on the challenge of modeling in an antique scale, more power to them. I wish you well in your endeavor.
On3 track and turnouts work with American OO as its the same track gauge. One just has to shorten the tie length to look less narrow gauge. Yes the tie spacing is off, but once ballested it blends in pretty good. There are other methods to deal with lack of track. Yes TT is alive, probably more so now than pre Berlin wall falling. Once that opened up the eastern bloc countries to the rest of the world, those trains found more modelers that wanted to try them. Part of the fun of these old and obscure scales is the research into what was made, then the hunt to find yourself one or more of them. Mike
American OO scale was in its last gasp when I made the switch from Lionel to (HO) scale models and started to read Model Railroader magazine. There was a very prolific writer of letters to the editor named Temple Nieter of Illinois who carried the banner for OO well into the 1960s (he had been a very early published author in MR in the 1930s). In one or another of his letters Nieter mentioned that he was part of a round robin letter-writing group (yes we did that before the internet!) of a couple of dozen OO scalers who would trade parts, make molds of old castings for each other, and that sort of thing.
Nieter made the not illogical point that a scale of 1:76 makes so much more sense than a scale of 1:87.1 (that ".1" makes it the real HO scale, not 1:87). His thinking was that 1:87.1 came about because the track gauge came first and then folks needed to figure out what scale made it true standard gauge, whereas with OO the ratio of scale came first and then you decide the gauge.
There was also a spectacular OO layout that was featured in MR now and then by a modeler named Carl Appel - the Norfolk & Ohio, with scratchbuilt steam locomotives (mostly N&W) , wide sweeping and realistic looking curves, and superb scenery and trackwork. In terms of genuine prototype looking realism Carl Appel was probably ahead of John Allen in creating a layout that would be considered up to date if seen today (no disrespect intended to J.A. or his legacy).
It is a bit ironic that a guy seeking to keep American OO alive today would use On3 track, because back in the late 1930s and 1940s the pioneering On3 guys (a name that I recall was Jack Alexander) valued the ready availability of commerical OO scale track that they could adapt and use!
As regards three rail (whether inside third rail such as Lionel and Marx had, or outside third rail such as was seen on many O scale layouts including the famous Delta Lines), one advantage it had was that it made signal systems easier. Many of those pioneering modelers regarded a full working signal system as an integral part of the whole notion of having a "model railroad." Even into the mid to late 1950s, Frank Ellison (owner of the outside third rail Delta Lines), scoffed that modelers who prided themselves on having prototypical two rail layouts were nonetheless afraid to tackle complex track work because of the two rail wiring issues that in his opinion relatively few modelers really understood well enough to deal with -- and that any layout with a full working signal system was per se more "realistic" then a layout without. Ellison had a point about two rail wiring -- at one point or another I probably owned every wiring book for two rail that has been published and the one thing they all have in common is that at some point, the authors' abilities to explain fall short, even if each of those books was billed as being childishly easy to understand. A lot of those early DCC systems were sold less on the ability to run multiple trains on the same track at the same time, but to avoid the wiring demands of toggle switches or the relays of progressive cab control and such.
It always seemed curious to me that the center stud version of three rail that Maerklin developed never caught on in other scales, but perhaps Maerklin had patents that made that impossible. Too bad because if you want to have the advantages of third rail, the appearance of Maerklin track seems the way to go.
It is a long time since I have seen any OO scale for sale at a swap meet. Years ago I did see some nice freight cars that just somehow looked "wrong" to me and the seller pointed out that they weren't HO as I wrongly assumed.
Dave Nelson
Many times I find OO cars mixed in with HO cars as so many of todays dealers are not modelers, just estate sellers. So they have no idea why that car is a bit bigger than the others. Its just "old" and not really to "proper" HO scale I have been told. I pay the gentleman or lady and then explain its not HO, that its OO, a scale nolonger really seen much. Most of what I find these days is on ebay or online groups.
emdmike Many times I find OO cars mixed in with HO cars as so many of todays dealers are not modelers, just estate sellers. So they have no idea why that car is a bit bigger than the others. Its just "old" and not really to "proper" HO scale I have been told. I pay the gentleman or lady and then explain its not HO, that its OO, a scale nolonger really seen much. Most of what I find these days is on ebay or online groups.
Is anyone still making OO equipment or are you relegated to shopping at flea markets and estate sales?
BTW just to nitpick...strictly speaking, American and British OO scale is the same scale (4mm = 1 foot), it's the track gauges that are different as EMDMike illustrates in his post.
My understanding (from a British model railroad book I bought years back) is that when HO gauge was developed in Germany by Marklin, the smallest available electric motor would fit in US or most European engine models, but would not fit in UK models as their engines were comparatively smaller than most country's engines. In the UK they boosted the linear scale, but kept the HO track gauge.
Speaking of "Half O" or HO scale, 3.5mm = 1 foot...if you divide out real standard gauge track by 1.25" O gauge, it comes out to 1:45.2 scale, or 17/64ths = 1 foot. In America, we adjusted it to an easier to work with 1/4" = 1 foot, or 1:48 scale. In Europe, where the metric system is more common they adjusted it to 7mm = 1 foot, or 1:43.55 scale. That's why HO scale is 1:87.1, 3.5mm = 1 foot, since that's 1/2 of European O scale. (That's also why you see so many "O scale" automobiles that are 1:43 scale, since many of them are made by European companies.)
UK OO is alive and well, still running on HO track though. New American OO is slim to none. There are some 3d printed items you can order off Shapeways such as diesel shells and so forth that one can modify Athearn blue box era drives to by widening the wheel gauge to work on OO track. Hallmark did a really nice diecast NYC 2333 F3 AA pair, unpowered but its made to OO scale, even comes with a really nice display case. I have a pair and plan to put NWSL On3 Stanton drives under them to power them. But for the most part, you are relagated to ebay and estate tables at shows. Lionel OO is the easiest to find, along with Scale Craft The rest takes lots of diligent searching. Its out there, just waiting to be found.
Here are my latest two buys off ebay. Both are Scale Craft kits. The box car is the brass body version and is partially built, the stock car is all diecast. Both kits are complete with trucks and couplers. I will build these over the coming winter months hopefully. Mike
Hi Mike,
Thank you! I just learned a whole lot of new information about the hobby.
Your interest in modeling American OO scale is very intriguing. Please keep us posted.
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
emdmike UK OO is alive and well, still running on HO track though. New American OO is slim to none. There are some 3d printed items you can order off Shapeways such as diesel shells and so forth that one can modify Athearn blue box era drives to by widening the wheel gauge to work on OO track. Hallmark did a really nice diecast NYC 2333 F3 AA pair, unpowered but its made to OO scale, even comes with a really nice display case. I have a pair and plan to put NWSL On3 Stanton drives under them to power them. But for the most part, you are relagated to ebay and estate tables at shows. Lionel OO is the easiest to find, along with Scale Craft The rest takes lots of diligent searching. Its out there, just waiting to be found. Here are my latest two buys off ebay. Both are Scale Craft kits. The box car is the brass body version and is partially built, the stock car is all diecast. Both kits are complete with trucks and couplers. I will build these over the coming winter months hopefully. Mike
While I would never go down the path you have chosen, I admire your efforts and wish you success. One advantage you have is that when you buy on ebay or at estate sales, I doubt you have a lot of competition. Do you ever get outbid on ebay?
I love to share my love of the obscure and unique. Went to a train show in Peru, IN today, didnt find any of the exact freight cars I need for my 1946 Lionel Berkshire set I am building up. But I did find this Scale Craft OO passenger coach, complete with trucks and couplers on an estate table for $5. I was thrilled to find a OO piece at this small show. Hopefully I will find more items on both my Lionel O scale and OO wish lists at next weeks NMRA fall show at Danville, Indiana. I will have my vintage Lionel O gauge running at this year show. Hopefully both OO and O next year. Mike
Mike,
I have enjoyed all your posts here and on CTT forum. It is obvious you love trains whether 2 or 3 rail and all different scales. Thanks for showing us your finds.
emdmike Not a problem, if you want to "kill" some time reading more about American OO trains, here is a link to a great website. He also has some videos on youtube of his models running on his OO layout. Its a neat part of the infancy of scale model railroading in scales smaller than O scale. All starting in those years between the great depression and the start of WWII. Its really fasicnating to me and hunting done these antique models, getting them running again(they make lots of ozone when running..love that smell) Here is the link: https://americanootoday.com/?cat=17 Here is a pic of HO track VS Lionel 3 rail OO to show the gauge differance. British OO started about the same time as American OO, Same 1:76th scale ratio but the Brits used more common HO track, so the scale/track gauge is incorrect and remains this way to this day. But with the overall smaller size of the UK prototypes, they fit in well on a USA HO layout. Its only if you put a HO and a OO model of the same loco side by side that the difference is apparent. So UK OO like from Bachmann Branchlines, Hornby and others will run on your HO layouts. But American OO models will not. Mike
I wandered through an antiques mall near me the other day. They have a few booths with trains so I check it out once in awhile. I saw what might be a Lionel OO locomotive. It looked like three rail track, but almost HO size. Unfortunately, it was locked in a case and not very visible. It did look like a very nice locomotive. The tag on the piece was not fully visible other than Lionel and Hallmark.