I am working on a whole basement, double decked, fall in New England layout and am debating with myself on backdrop material. Do I use masonite, painted a plain sky blue and allow the focus to be on the models only or do I use photo backdrops from one of the big suppliers?
One of my main concerns with the photo backdrops is getting the foreground to blend with the background both in terms of color as well as rivers and roads disappearing into to backdrop, etc.
I should also probably add that I am extremely OCD so I definitely think the blending could be an issue. I am the guy who will spend (and have spent) two nights on a small roof for part of a building
I would be really interested to hear pros and cons to both approaches as well as some pictures if you have some to share. Thank you in advance!
- Bill Rutherford Lancaster, NH
Central Vermont Railroad
I did both although I used drywall instead of masonite because on a previous layout I had expansion/contraction issues with masonite that cause it to buckle. I used commercial backdrops but I cut off the sky portion and pasted them to the sky blue drywall. That way I don't have to blend the backdrop sky to the painted sky.
As you indicated, the purpose of a backdrop is to focus attention on the foreground scenery. You don't want your backdrop to be an attention getter. That could happen if you make your back drop too detailed but could also happen if it is too sparse. A plain sky backdrop might work if you are modeling the plains (see Tony Koester's layout) but if you are modeling a hilly/mountainous region or an urban area, a plain sky backdrop might not look right and draw unwanted attention.
There are tricks to get the foreground rivers and roads to blend into the background or using a viewblock to hide the meeting place between the 3D scene and the backdrop.
Hi John,
My approach is using the sky blue background(in my case on the back side of vinyl flooring) so there is consistency in the sky color and cut out the sky of the photo backdrops. This way I can use backdrops from different suppliers without worrying about matching the sky color. Some of the members of the forum have created their own backdrop photos to get that consistency.
Just a thought.
Scott Sonntag
Good topic. I'm torn between which I like better.
I tend to prefer a solid blue sky backdrop since my eyes see it as an artistic barrier where the layout simply disappears into the unmodeled abyss. And in the abyss, everything is the same. I paint it blue because that makes the most sense given the model, but I think artists use the color Black to simulate the unseen neutral.
I also model areas with no grades, so my eyes are not expecting to see hills or mountains in the background.
Photobackdrops can be wonderful. I think they work best when they are representing wide open countryside. Track up against open backdrop can be done well.
I think with more busier settings, photo backdrops inherently capture only one viewing angle, so buildings, roads, hills, etc have to be positioned correctly on the layout in order to maximize the scene. When everyhting is lined up at the same viewing angle, it looks great. But walk around the layout, or if things don't line up with the backdrop, it can look a bit off.
For me, the solid blue backdrop might be less dramatic, but its safer.
- Douglas
Adding a background picture to a large layout is difficult, in my opinion. I much prefer a plain painted background. It does not need to be blue. I painted mine blue for the high portion, then spray painted the lower part with white. I brush painted some mountains and blended it in using the spray can. Here are two corner scenes:
20211017_104745 on Flickr
20210613_200059 on Flickr
I think plain white would do, but my scenes are set in the mountains, and my trackwork is perfectly flat, so I am counting on various effects (a bridge, mountains, backdrop and downward slopes between the tracks) to give the illusion of slopes.
Simon
B RutherfordOne of my main concerns with the photo backdrops is getting the foreground to blend with the background both in terms of color as well as rivers and roads disappearing into to backdrop, etc. I should also probably add that I am extremely OCD so I definitely think the blending could be an issue. I am the guy who will spend (and have spent) two nights on a small roof for part of a building
This is an interesting topic -- thanks for bringing it up.
Each weekend, there's a thread called Weekend Photo Fun (make sure it's the Model Railroader version and not the Classic Toy Trains version).
There are some modelers' photos there that have the backgrounds blend in so well with the layout that, in the photos, it's very difficult to see where the line is.
Also, don't worry about the OCD. Just about every modeler on this forum suffers from it in varying degrees.
I know that we all would love to see photos of your layout as you build it!
York1 John
Proper coordination between 3D scenery and the backdrop can restrict the viewing angle to only favorable one. For example I have a river on my backdrop that is flowing from the viewers left to right, passing under a bridge on the backdrop. At the intersection with the backdrop, the modeled river drops into a short stretch of white water which effectively disguises the intersection. From there the river bends back to the viewer's left and under a covered bridge which restricts an unfavorable viewing angle. I use trees on the right bank of the river to restrict viewing from that angle. This has worked very well in blending the backdrop to the foreground.
Another effective technique with backdrops is to layer them which creates depth. Also mounting the front layer of the backdrop on Gator board gives it about 1/8" of depth further enhancing the illusion and blending the foreground to the backdrop. Having 3D structures in the foreground, low relief structures against the backdrop, a Gator board mounted layer with one or more flat layers behind it creates the illusion of depth without drawing attention away from the layout itself.
PS. I was once at a train show with a modular layout where one of the modules had a river flowing under a bridge at the backdrop. A mirror had been placed under the bridge to make it seem like the river extended beyond the backdrop. The problem is, it made the river look like it was flowing through a hole in a wall. It was a nice idea but just didn't work.
Yeah for another OCDer. Do you think anal retentive has a hyphen?
Anyway, I have done the masonite backdrop painted blue with white for clouds. Creating clouds is not too challenging. Depending on the day/season, location, etc., the entire sky could appear as pure haze. I'm of the school that the focus is on the trains and not the background artwork.
kasskaboose Yeah for another OCDer. Do you think anal retentive has a hyphen? Anyway, I have done the masonite backdrop painted blue with white for clouds. Creating clouds is not too challenging. Depending on the day/season, location, etc., the entire sky could appear as pure haze. I'm of the school that the focus is on the trains and not the background artwork.
I have a very simple method of painting clouds. After painting the sky blue, I take a rattle can of white paint and make small swirls which creates acceptable wispy cirrus clouds. I also us the rattle can to create haze, concentrating it near the horizon and progressively lighter as I go up. It's important to use a good quality paint and shake the can thoroughly so you don't get splatter. Also check the nozzle occasionally to make sure paint is not building up which can also cause splatter. Use a scrap piece of cardboard to experiment how far from the surface to spray. When it looks right, STOP spraying.
I'm sorry - But none of y'all could possibly have OCD...
If you did, you would call it by it's proper name, CDO. It's the same disease, just in correct alphabetical order, as it should be.
My last layout was just a solid blue back drop, as I never got around to finishing it.
Layout room remodel will have all the walls a deeper sky blue, but I might try a rolling countryside photo backdrop, with sky removed, or just a couple of "hill-looking" green things painted on the lower part.
While the "no backdrop" wasn't horrible, the flat earth did simply drop off into nothing rather abruptly...
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Thank you all for the awesome replies. I will be sure to check out the weekend photo thread! I will also post some images of my layout as it progresses. The jury is still out on which way I will go (blue or photo) but this has definitely given me a lot of food for thought!
B Rutherford Thank you all for the awesome replies. I will be sure to check out the weekend photo thread! I will also post some images of my layout as it progresses. The jury is still out on which way I will go (blue or photo) but this has definitely given me a lot of food for thought!
There is a third option which is to paint the backdrop. I didn't trust my artistic skills enough to try that but others have done it quite well.
John-NYBW B Rutherford Thank you all for the awesome replies. I will be sure to check out the weekend photo thread! I will also post some images of my layout as it progresses. The jury is still out on which way I will go (blue or photo) but this has definitely given me a lot of food for thought! There is a third option which is to paint the backdrop. I didn't trust my artistic skills enough to try that but others have done it quite well.
While I tend to prefer the solid blue over the photo mainly because of viewing angle issues, painting forms on the backdrop can work well too.
Dark green paint brush-dabbed as a background to a forest thats built with modeled trees.
Dark green/gray swashes along the bottom to represent hills along the horizon.
Etc.
When it gets to painting large landforms or specific details, I'm out.
The backdrop for my layout is mostly drywall, painted varying shades of light blue. Because I intended to later add a partial second level to my layout, I planned ahead, as shown below. I did use Masonite to "cove" all 10 corners of the layout room, including upper and lower levels...
(click on the photos for a larger image)
In many areas, I made the landforms (Durabond patching plaster over aluminum screen) rise towards the back of the layout, suggesting that there's more on the other side of those "hills"...
...but in some areas, a ground-level (or water-level) view can suggest a horizon, as in the photo of the Maitland river emptying into Lake Erie (and yes, I played a bit loose with the prototype, as the real Maitland River empties into Lake Huron)...
For a view from a higher vantage point, the view of the horizon is less convincing...
...but a little embellishment, created by my brother, made some mist over the "lake", and some smoke and steam effects, too...
Here are some photos of Lowbanks, located near the river shown above, and also on the shore of Lake Erie, as viewed from right to left...
...while I believe that just over the rise near the back of the layout, the town extends down to the lake, with homes and cottages and a small amusement park, too. However, it doesn't look all that convincing to me, even though I regularily run excursion trains from other on-layout towns to this supposed tourist destination.
Here are three right-to-left "aerial" views on the southern outskirts of South Cayuga, showing a couple of pieces of Masonite acting as background, painted green, and with an application of glued-on ground foam ( a tree or two should hide that overlap to the right)...
...and another three similar views from an HO scale eye-level...
I have plans to add a pear orchard in that barren low-lying foreground area, and I think that that will be enough to complete the scene.The town of South Cayuga (out of camera view to the right) is on a very shallow area of the layout, 2 feet deep, or less, and about 14' long. I may resort to more painted- and foam-encrusted Masonite as a backdrop, but there's no way that it will look all that convincing.
Here are a couple of photos...
To be honest, since I'm the sole operator of my layout, I'm not overly concerned about a few areas where things look like a layout, rather than a real place. Visitors, of course, are free to wander around the layout and comment as they wish, as are viewers on this Forum.
Wayne
I used sky blue on top and a lighter shade on bottom and mixed them inbetween creating a cloudy haze, worked well and cheap. I then got brave and added hills, basic browns with highlights mixed in and used a lighter shade of the brown as the hills went back.
I find an unpainted wall behind a layout no more a hindrance to my suspension of disbelief than the layout's front edge ending abruptly at fascia. I think photo backgrounds distract the eye from the layout -- even crudely drawn hills and trees would be better than a photo. But a white or sky-blue wall would be best. Otherwise, we should be worrying about blending the fascia with the reality of the room we stand in, which is ridiculous. You have to "draw the line" somewhere. Edges don't trouble me at all. Remember, it's modelling.
"It's not a model if it's full-scale, Tomkinson, it's an icebreaker...you're a very stupid boy, building icebreakers like this!"
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
See pages 62-63 of the December issue of Model Railroader for an excellent example of blending a background stream into the 3D scenery. The bridge frames the viewing angle making the joint difficult to detect. I know it's there but still am not sure exactly where it is.
As you can see, convincing scenes can be created with just a sky blue background but it can also be done with a photo backdrop. It really depends on your situation and what kind of scene you want to create. Is it realistic for there to be no landscape or structures in the background? If so, a sky blue background will suffice.
I have to disagree with the poster who believes a photo backdrop draws attention away from the foreground scenery. If it is blended in the foreground scenery, it is not a distraction at all. I have a large urban area with a 14' wide photo backdrop with flats and low relief structures in front of it. I have several small towns and stretches of Appalachian hill country, all using photo backdrops and I find they don't distract from the scenery at all. When a train is moving through the scene, it draws the attention. The 3D scenery and the backdrop are just supporting players. The train is the star of the show.
I also did not know how to proceed, so I put up hardboard with a couple of coats of Behr sky blue and hit it with spray balms for the clouds, and was done in no time. I still don't know what to do as far as the backdrop, but in the meantime, this will do.
I think what works will be different for each layout and the star of the show can easily get overwhelmed by the backdrop if not careful.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Given the loacation of your layout--NE--I would consider painting a hilly skyline silouette of dark green or purple-gray. If you have fall follage adding some trees painted on the backdrop might fill out the effect. They can be rough, in fact, there are YouTube videos showing how you can make the trees quickly and easily. Of course, paint the leaves shades of yellow, red and orange slightly darker than your folliage instead of green.
BTW, YouTube is full of videos on how to make simple and effective backdrops.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
B RutherfordDo I use masonite, painted a plain sky blue and allow the focus to be on the models only or do I use photo backdrops from one of the big suppliers?
I have banged this around in my head for a long, long time.
In the end, every layout I have built has ended up having Walther's backdrops, and I already have bought them for my final layout. I guess I found what works for me.
That being said... I really love the way some of the photo-backdrops look and am amazed how some modelers have made use of them.
York1Also, don't worry about the OCD. Just about every modeler on this forum suffers from it in varying degrees.
It almost seems like a mandatory trait.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Another option to consider is Painting Backdrops for Your Model Railroad by Mike Danneman. It covers doing a Midwestern backdrop. I picked it up for trying to do an Eastern Montana railyard area backdrop and I still haven't gotten around to making mine yet. (Of course there has been a layout move since I bought the book so that doesn't help anything.)
Lots of good advice/comments........
My last three layouts, two of which filled an 11x15 room, had painted backdrops. IMO, they turned out pretty nice, which surprised the heck out of me.
I am not an artist by any means, but I got interested in some of the Bob Ross shows where he made painting - particularly scenery - look so easy. His shows are available on YouTube for refresher courses.
Anyway, if you look to have sky, hills, distant mountains and the like, I urge you to get some cheap tubes of acyrilics and give it a shot. Worst case, you can paint over anything you don't like.
One other point..unless you are really good, stay away from painting structures or people and the like. Stick with sky, or sky and distant trees/hills/mountains.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
mobilman44 Lots of good advice/comments........ My last three layouts, two of which filled an 11x15 room, had painted backdrops. IMO, they turned out pretty nice, which surprised the heck out of me. I am not an artist by any means, but I got interested in some of the Bob Ross shows where he made painting - particularly scenery - look so easy. His shows are available on YouTube for refresher courses. Anyway, if you look to have sky, hills, distant mountains and the like, I urge you to get some cheap tubes of acyrilics and give it a shot. Worst case, you can paint over anything you don't like. One other point..unless you are really good, stay away from painting structures or people and the like. Stick with sky, or sky and distant trees/hills/mountains.
I always enjoyed the Bob Ross series on PBS but I didn't realize by the time I started watching them, he had been dead for some time. I've been tempted to take up painting as another hobby because Bob Ross made it look so easy. I'm sure it's not.
PBS has a new painting series. I think the guy's name is Jerry Yarnell. He spends multiple episodes doing a single painting. He also uses oil paints.
I guess I should clarify this.
I do use the Walthers backdrops, but not the sky part. I trim away the sky from the buildings, trees, and mountains. I paint my sky backdrop myself. In my opinion, the sky in the Walthers backdrops looks to dreary for my cheerful model railroad.
I glue the Walthers backdrop elements to my sky.
I need to learn to paint clouds.
My plans are to have sky blue back drops until I can get something better such as painted or photo backdrops.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
The Walthers backdrops had for many years been sold under the brand name Instant Horizons. I don't know how long that product line has been available but I saved both the 50th and 75th anniversary editions of the Walthers catalogs and amazingly the price of those had not gone up in 25 years. What other product can you think of that you could say that about. Like Kevin, I cut off the sky portion and pasted it to my sky blue backdrop with clouds and haze painted in. I think that is pretty much a standard procedure if one is going to have a tall backdrop. I've never seen anyone try to blend the sky from the backdrop to their painted sky although it wouldn't surprise me to learn someone has.
I used the Instant Horizon backdrops on my first layout begun in 1979. It was a western themed railroad and I used a couple of their mountains scenes. When I began my current layout in my new home in 2001, there wasn't a lot of choices in commercial backdrops. I used two of the urban Instant Horizon backdrops. Soon after, photo backdrops started becoming widely available and I've used those on the rest of my layout.
Just a thought!
Here in the U.K. everytime I look at the sky I see a number of colours. White, gray, red, yellow, nighttime black, and blue. Each colour in various shades. Never seen it all a vivid blue.
Even today it is a patchwork of gray and white with a vapour trail of an airplane from America on its way to Germany.
See what you see and not what you think you saw.
As I say, it is just a thought.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
NorthBrit Just a thought! Here in the U.K. everytime I look at the sky I see a number of colours. White, gray, red, yellow, nighttime black, and blue. Each colour in various shades. Never seen it all a vivid blue. Even today it is a patchwork of gray and white with a vapour trail of an airplane from America on its way to Germany. See what you see and not what you think you saw. As I say, it is just a thought. David
Although it is not the norm, we in Ohio occasionally get a cloudless, vivid blue sky. It requires a high pressure area coming down from Canada. When our weather comes from the south, it's usually warm and muggy and produces a hazy sky. We see just about everything in Ohio. If you don't like it, wait 10 minutes and it will change.
A lot depends on area - In NW PA there are days that are cloudy, gray days, rain or snow on some, other days are indeed a bright blue sky, someimes white puffy clouds around, other days none.
Today, currently, bright blue with just a few contrails here and there.
But I have seen days that are hazy, overcast, etc...
Here in sunny California's great central valley, where I live as well as where I model, we get vivid blue skies for much of the year, and in summer we can often go for months without seeing so much as a cloud in the sky. Late summer was also the busiest season on the prototype railroad I model, Sacramento Northern, which served multiple canneries and packing houses and interchange between Class 1 railroads, and there were other summertime uses like livestock transported by railroad car to the California State Fair. However, a too-vivid blue might distract or come off as unrealistic, so I used a toned-down light blue that was close in color but a bit less vivid, especially because the space between layout and valence is only about 18", somost of the viewer's perspective is a thin band of sky near the horizon where atmospheric haze is greatest. I tried a couple of different strategies for corners, with mixed results; a coved strip of wood smoothed into my Masonite backdrop panels with drywall tape & mud worked well in one corner but not the other, a sheet of .020" styrene with the same drywall tape & mud treatment worked well until temperature variations cracked the mud. I illuminate the layout with rows of mini LED lights in front and back to illuminate foreground & background, with warm LED bulbs in the room which help light the foreground but sometimes cast slight shadows in the middle of the sky. I use reflective insulation between the light strips to help reflect light back downward.