Should I paint a Kadee boxcar before decaling it, or decal right on the plastic and then dullcoat?

[SeeYou190]

When  was a youngling, I buil a lot of 1/25 scale cars that were "molded in color".

I put the decals right on the plastic. They always looked bad. Maybe for a seven year old I did OK.

-Kevin

[wjstix]

I haven't done a Kadee car, but I've decaled several factory painted "data only" cars from Accurail for my freelance railroad. I always spray the car with a gloss finish first, then add the decals, then seal it all in with flat finish. I've used Walthers Solvaset to remove factory printed lettering from cars, so I don't think I'd want to put down decals and use Solvaset on them without the lettering I wanted to keep being protected by the gloss coat.

[dknelson]

Those who remember the old old Kurtz-Kraft PS1 boxcar kits (89 cents!) from the late 1950s might remember that they were lettered on raw unpainted plastic.  That was considered one of the negatives at the time.  There was no DullCote then and the lusterless varnishes at the time were thick and yellowing.  I have added decal ACI labels to those cars and I used a tortillon to burnish the car side to give it some natural gloss before I did so, followed by SolvaSet and when that dried, DullCote to seal it all.

Apart from that I cannot speak to the issue of totally decaling on "raw" plastic.  Like any new skill I would need practice.  So before using good decals on a good Kadee boxcar I think I'd try a scrap decal from my "odd and ends" envelope on the raw flat backside of, say, a structure kit which has also been molded in plastic of a boxcar red color, or close to it.  I'd also want to see how well SolvaSet or similar fluid works on raw plastic so I'd look for a part of the backside that isn't purely flat surface but has a feature that you'd want the decal to snuggle down over.

Even if it "worked" however I doubt whether it is really the best result possible.

What I can testify to is that DullCote does a rather remarkable job of making raw unpainted plastic look like it is painted, even weathered.  As part of one of my weathering clinics where I pass examples around the room, I took the cheapest of cheap train set yellow boxcars (50 cents at a swap meet), lettered (not decals, probably a heat lettering process like Lionel's or maybe silk screen) "Union Pacific" on raw very high gloss yellow plastic, cut out one entire side, masked 1/2 horizonally and DullCoted half the car side.  The difference is remarkable, the garish and toylike lettering and coloring on the car actually ended up looking pretty good on the DullCoted half, and the molded on details looked better once they were no longer shiny. The plastic itself no longer looked "waxy" and the lettering seemed to have greater definition. 

I mounted the car side on a small piece of plywood to pass around the room and penned in arrows and words to explain which 1/2 was original cheap train set and which 1/2 was simply DullCoated, nothing more.  The point I was making in my clinic was however not to advise decaling unpainted Kadees, or to use cheapo trainset cars as is,  but just to show the role DullCote plays in overall weathering.

Dave Nelson

 

[nyoandw]

Thanks all.  Wayne, I didn't put in my original post, but having done other decaling (over paint) I have used your glosscoating over the decals before dullcoating, and it results in a much better result than simply dullcoating over the decals.

If I do decal without painting, I'd first glosscoat to be sure I have a good surface for the decals to adhere to.  My biggest concern is will the plastic, after various gloss and dullcoatings, look good, or look like clearcoated plastic.  I think I may experiment a bit and see what happens.  If I do that, I will let you know how things go.  

[mvlandsw]

Kadee cars that are lettered at the factory are painted. I don't know about the undecorated ones.

Decades ago I put decals directly on a plastic car, Although they looked good at first, a few years later they were peeling off. I don't think that I overcoated the decals though.

[doctorwayne]

Thanks for your kind words, Chip, they're much appreciated.

Wayne

[SpaceMouse]

doctorwayne

While you may find the following overly long and tedious, feel free to cherry-pick what you think to be appropriate, and skip the rest.  I have found the complete procedure to yield very good results.

Wayne,

I, for one, am appreciate the amount of information put into your post. I read every word.

[dstarr]

Paint and decals on that boxcar look really good.

[dstarr]

I think paint looks better than plastic, even plastic with DullCote on top of it.  My favorite paint for boxcars is red auto primer from a rattle can.  Rustoleum or Krylon is good.  I have good results with both.  I just decal on top of the auto primer after it is good and dry, I have never bothered to gloss coat under decals.  I dislike the glossy plastic look on new truck, so I paint them too. 

[doctorwayne]

Quite a few years ago, the owner of a now long-gone hobbyshop asked me to letter a number of unpainted freight cars...."no need to paint 'em."

After applying the decals, I wished that I had painted the cars, and if I had had another set of the decals, that's what I would have done.

I've been in this hobby since the mid-'50s, and have learned quite a few things, some by trial and error, others from professionals willing to share their knowledge, and sometimes simply following my instincts.
While you may find the following overly long and tedious, feel free to cherry-pick what you think to be appropriate, and skip the rest. 
I have found the complete procedure to yield very good results.

First, I would suggest that you wash the car (or locomotive, structure, etc.), using warm water and dish detergent, then rinse it thoroughly with water and let it air-dry.

Once it’s dry, airbrush it in an appropriate colour(s), then set it aside to let the paint dry/cure/harden, depending on the type of paint you use.

Once that is done, airbrush the entire areas which will be decalled with Glosscote (or your preferred clear gloss) then let it fully dry until there’s no odour of solvent present on the car.  
Don’t apply the gloss only where the decals will be applied - for rolling stock and locomotives, those areas are usually the sides and ends - cover them completely with the gloss, even if the amount of decal work will be very minimal.  
Allow the clear coat to fully cure/harden - there should be no noticeable odour to it, (this minimises the chance of the setting solutions reacting with the clear coat).

Next, use a sharp blade to cut the needed decals from the sheet, keeping as far away from the lettering as possible.  Once you have all of the required lettering free of the main sheet, use a sharp blade (re-sharpen or replace as necessary) and working on a hard surface (I use a sheet of glass on my work desk for this), to trim away as much of the blank paper from as close as you can maneuver the blade to the lettering, using a straight down chopping motion, rather than slicing it away.  If necessary, do this work under magnification (eyeglasses, Optivisor, or loupe).

The reason for the two-part cutting is that slicing the image, even with a sharp blade, raises the edges along the cut line, and when you apply that decal to the model, the setting solution is often insufficient to make those edges settle completely flat onto the surface.

Using a chopping motion has a couple of advantages, first that it allows you to position the tip of the blade as close as possible to the lettering, and second, that when you bring the blade down to make the cut, the chopping movement pushes the edge of the decal downward, which will allow better and easier setting of the lettering when it is time to apply that solution.



Another tip to decrease the chances that your lettering job will look obvious as decals, is to trim the excess clear film from rounded letters or numerals such as B, C, O, P, 2, 3, 8, 0, etc. which are at the beginning or end of a block of lettering.  
F’rinstance, on a CANADIAN NATIONAL car, I would use a simple diagonal chop to remove the clear film from the top and bottom left side of the “C”, and the clear film from the “L” at the end of NATIONAL - this latter chop could be a simple diagonal from the top to the right edge of the foot, but an L-shaped cut would give even better results.

The same trimming can be applied to dimensional data, too, even if you apply it in the blocks in which it’s printed.  For example....

CAPY        100000
LD LMT     120000
LT WT         49000

....trim the top left corner of the “C”, the top right corner of the last “0” in the top line, and the bottom right corner of the last “0” in the bottom line with a simple diagonal chop.
You will be surprised by how much difference it can make in the finished appearance.


Use distilled water for soaking the decal - it's available in gallon jugs at any supermarket, and not at all expensive.  This eliminates any dissolved minerals which might otherwise be present in tap water, and a gallon will do a lot of decals. 
Do not rush the soaking process for the decal, but allow it to release from the backing paper on its own.  If it's big enough to handle with tweezers (not something small, such as a single digit for dimensional data), dip the released film into water, submerging it completely, then, as you withdraw it from the water, drag the back-side of it over the lip of the container holding the water - this helps to remove any residue left from the backing paper.  Depending on the particular decal, you may want to repeat this a couple of times.  
Smaller decals, like blocks of dimensional data or single numerals, can be simply dipped into the water, then set on your work surface while the water frees them from the backing paper.

Most decals applied using only water can be re-wet and moved an almost infinite number of times.  For very small pieces of decal (a single letter or numeral, or even a period or comma, I place the dry decal near its intended place, then wet it with a drop of water on my fingertip or the end of a knife or tweezers.  It can usually be slid off the backing paper easily, then maneuvered into place.

Use references on the model (rivet lines, panel lines, doors, ladders, and other details) as guides to position the lettering correctly and level.  Where those details aren't available, I like to cut strips of masking tape as guidelines, and when lettering with individual letters or numerals, often use a pencil to denote, on the tape, the beginning and end of each word, so that the spacing is correct.
  
Likewise, individual letter spacing is not usually uniform, but rather depends on the particular letters and their sequence within the words.  Google "kerning" for more info.

Once the decals have been applied on the gloss surface and have been blotted using a clean cloth, I use a small brush to apply a fairly weak setting solution around the perimeter of each individual pieces of decal, and also on the decals’s surface - Microscale’s Microset works well for this step.  Let the decals dry fully - it usually takes 10 or 15 minutes at most.
Next, I use the brush-in-cap from the Solvaset bottle to apply this stronger decal setting solution, in the same manner as the previous operation.  I let this dry completely (a couple hours at least, although I often leave them overnight) then use a clean cloth over my fingertip, dipped in the distilled water to wet it, then gently rub the wet cloth over each piece of the applied and set decals - this should remove any marks left by the action of the Solvaset.  Use a dry portion of the same cloth to remove any remaining water from the model’s surface.
After the decals have been cleaned and have fully-dried,  I overspray them with another coat of clear gloss.  This step may seem unnecessary, but the gloss of the decal seldom matches exactly the gloss of the surface on which it has been applied.  This overspray ensures that the entire surface has a uniform finish.

If you're using an airbrush for applying the clear finish, it will dry (to-the-touch, at least) very rapidly, and you can then apply the flat (or semi-gloss, if you're modelling a fairly new car) almost immediately.  After this step, the decal work is completed, and the car set aside, usually at least overnight or for a day-or-so to let the clear coats fully harden.

  
Airbrushing gives you the option of mixing that final clear coat to whatever sheen or flatness you wish for that particular model.

The car can then be weathered as you wish, but unless you're weathering using oils or chalk, I'd recommend no flat overspray over the weathering, as it usually makes the weathering effects too uniform.

Here's a scratchbuilt boxcar with decal lettering...(the photos will enlarge if clicked upon)

...and even when viewed obliquely, appears to be painted-on...

Sometimes decal work involves more than you might expect...the tank car, below, was lettered using decals - 168 of them, some only as big as a . following a shortform...

Wayne

[SeeYou190]

This is an example of an undecorated Kadee HO scale PS-1 boxcar painted with Scalecoat II paint (color #2014) and decorated with custom Rail Graphics decals. The decals were set with Daco Strong decal fluid. Then the model was sealed with Testors 1260 Dullcote.

I would be interested to see the "just fine" results of applying decals directly over unpainted plastic.

-Kevin

[SeeYou190]

Little Timmy

At the very least, I would suggest painting a glosscote first. 

Hi Timmy,

Haven't seen you around much lately, and you have been missed.

Good to hear from you again. I really miss your amazing projects.

-Kevin

[Little Timmy]

At the very least, I would suggest painting a glosscote first. 

Then decal, then dullcote .

 

[SeeYou190]

I have never applied decals directly to bare plastic. Kadee prints their cars, so the surface is probably finished to accept printing.

I do not recall ever reading anything from Kadee that suggested applying decals directly to plastic.

But... they did offer cars decorated with "Data Only", so I guess it is possible, maybe.

I paint all my cars lots of different hues of "Boxcar Red" to get variety in my fleet.

-Kevin

[mlehman]

nyoandw

Then I was thinking - they are already molded in boxcar red, so I could potentially decal them in bare plastic then dullcoat them.

I think that Kadee has designed the molded color to be decaled on. But with their decals or ones similar to them. They're sorta pale and translucent. But I'm pretty sure other decals would work.

Something that may help, I just discovered, but so far I have no experience with. Tamiya makes decal setting solution called Mark Fit and Mark Fit Strong. They recommend using the stuff underneath where a decal will go, thus improving the fix when you go over once the decal is down. Might work for you here.

[ricktrains4824]

The only issue I could see occuring is how well the decal will "stick" to the bare plastic.

Prep it well, it *might* work, but I've always been to afraid to try it myself.

[nyoandw]

I have two undecorated Kadee 40' boxcars molded in boxcar red.  They came assembled.  My plan was to paint them boxcar red, glosscoat them prior to decaling, and dullcoat them after decaling.  Then I was thinking - they are already molded in boxcar red, so I could potentially decal them in bare plastic then dullcoat them. Have people done that, and how do they look once they have been dullcoated?  

I could just give it a try, but I hate to waste a set of decals if the idea is doomed to a poor-looking result, so thought I'd ask!