I have been in the hobby forever but since my main focus has always been in the building rather than running, I have never accumulated an extensive stock of locomotives. Hope to change that a bit by starting to add a few more in the next year or so and would like to move into brass. My question, is where are good places to hopefully get quality used units? Also, what types of things should I be looking for to get a feel about the condition of a particular locomotive? I know some sites make statements about the condition of their stock, and include photos, but other than those, what tips can anyone provide to help determine whether one model might be worth considering? If forum rules about advertising prohibit publically mentioning or recommending specific sites or businesses, please message me with your suggestion. Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide.
Dan
Brasstrains.com is a great source of information, not only for good photos for examination but also price ranges. Highly reputable. If you do purchase from them you can rest assured that your loco will work as they test things extensively and their rating system is rather harsh (locos will often perform better than advertized) HOWEVER, with high quality comes high cost. If you want something new, pristine, go with brass trains but also expect to pay a pretty penny.
Personally most of my brass purchases are from ebay. You'll find many mislisted locos. Usually there's some damage here or there, but as a result you can get pretty steep discounts on locos youd like. These discount locos usually have terrible paint jobs, or foam damage or something, so be prepared to put in a bit of work (which you really shouldnt mind given youre not buying RTR). Remember that ebays money back guarantee favors buyers heavily, so if you get scammed you can always return, no matter if the seller has a no returns policy or not. I wouldnt abuse this fact, but if you get scammed hard, dont be afraid to use it. Ebay is my go to because of the great deals you can sometimes find.
My favorite is buying from train shows. Many sellers dont even know what they have. You can closely inspect it with your own hands for broken or missing parts (using brasstrains.com photos as a reference), test to see if they run, etc. You can also bargain a bit with the seller if you're into that thing.
Good luck! Brass trains are great, and these days with the ridiculous prices for RTR locos, Ive been leaning more and more toward cheaper brass.
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
Last year I bought 3 brass steam locos, my first brass purchases, 2 from Brasstrains and one from ebay. My experience was largely as Charles described except tthe first one from Brasstrains did not run s well as described. Luckily there is a brass expert in my city who fixed the problems.
I model C N R and tthat means brass if you want an accurate model. The detail is amazing and they can be made to run very well. I had decoders installed for DCC and tthey run as well as any of my plastic steam from BLI and Bachman.
Good luck.
CN Charlie
Trainman440 Brasstrains.com is a great source of information, not only for good photos for examination but also price ranges. Highly reputable. If you do purchase from them you can rest assured that your loco will work as they test things extensively and their rating system is rather harsh (locos will often perform better than advertized) HOWEVER, with high quality comes high cost. If you want something new, pristine, go with brass trains but also expect to pay a pretty penny. Personally most of my brass purchases are from ebay. You'll find many mislisted locos. Usually there's some damage here or there, but as a result you can get pretty steep discounts on locos youd like. These discount locos usually have terrible paint jobs, or foam damage or something, so be prepared to put in a bit of work (which you really shouldnt mind given youre not buying RTR). Remember that ebays money back guarantee favors buyers heavily, so if you get scammed you can always return, no matter if the seller has a no returns policy or not. I wouldnt abuse this fact, but if you get scammed hard, dont be afraid to use it. Ebay is my go to because of the great deals you can sometimes find. My favorite is buying from train shows. Many sellers dont even know what they have. You can closely inspect it with your own hands for broken or missing parts (using brasstrains.com photos as a reference), test to see if they run, etc. You can also bargain a bit with the seller if you're into that thing. Good luck! Brass trains are great, and these days with the ridiculous prices for RTR locos, Ive been leaning more and more toward cheaper brass. Charles
Thanks Charles. That was the type of info I was looking for.
Not into wanting to lay out big bucks for new (though I realize quality used isn't going to be cheap), just needing a bit of advice before venturing into the world of used brass.
reasearchhound Hope to change that a bit by starting to add a few more in the next year or so and would like to move into brass.
Dan,
My first brass locomotive was given to me in the mid 1990s by a member of the local model railroad club. It is a Tenshodo 0-8-0, and it still runs well to this day. It went back and forth on my HO switching layout (SGRR #4) for 15 years, and was always a good reliable machine.
I knew immediately that I wanted more brass, but fianances were not going to allow this.
Then, in about 2017, I began to acquire my needed fleet for my next layout (SGRR #6), and I was now in a financial position to buy lots of brass, and brass prices were falling... perfect.
I think I own 20-25 brass locomotives now. Most of them purchased in the last two years have gone straight into storage during the house remodel, so I kind of lost track of some of the newer purchases.
As mentioned previously, Brasstrains Dot Com of Ocala, Florida has been an excellent source of brass locomotives. Every purchase I have made from them has arrived better than expected. There has only been one minor issue, a 4-8-2 I bought ran louder than they described. Out of at least a dozen locomotive purchases, I think that is an excellent record of honesty.
I have bought two brass locomotives at train shows. My experience with brass at train shows is that it is all well-handled and worn with lots of bent piping. Also, nobody knows what it is worth, so prices are all over the place. Both of these purchases turned out well, the locomotives I bought ran well and the prices I paid were fair. If you buy at train shows, expect it to be chaotic.
The rest have been bought on eBay. On eBay I just bid low and assume there are problems. One exception is Trainz of Buford, Georgia. They sell brass locomotives on eBay that include honest descriptions and testing. Most other sellers just say "runs good", or "untested". Anything described as "untested" I assume runs poorly, or not at all.
You can set up an account at Brasstrains Dot Com for free. This gives you access to their market prices for brass models. This is a great resource for what fair prices are and how they are trending.
I did luck out on a pair of Hallmark brass FTs recently that were purchased on eBay. These appear to have been expertly repowered with an Overland can motor. I got these cheap, and they run great.
Since I model a ficticious railroad, I can choose my models freely. 85% of the SGRR steam locomotives are USRA models. Most of these are Sunset, but there are a few by Key, Alco, PFM, and others.
I have a few prototype specific brass steam locomotives like the W&LE 4-8-2, which will become a 4-8-4. I also have a MA&PA 2-8-0, SOUTHERN 4-6-2, and a logging company Baldwin 2-6-2. Sometimes I just find something so attractive I need to buy it.
Brass steam locomotives are rugged and easy to maintain. They also stand up to handling quite well. All of this is positive for my needs.
I own quite a few brass diesels as well. Nearly all of these are terrible runners, and all were bought for about $50.00 each. These will not be run on the layout. Instead, these will be painted for the SGRR and will be used as photo props only. You can buy a nicely detailed brass photo-prop of an unusual locomotive for much less than a plastic model. If photography is part of your model railroading plan, keep this in mind as a source of good material.
I have also purchased a lot (30-40) of brass freight cars and (16) brass cabooses.
For freight cars in brass I like covered hopper cars and tank cars mostly. These are much more durable than the plastic models. I also do not enjoy assembling resin kits of these models.
This little guy just arrived in the mail today. Guess what I am sharing in Weekend Photo Fun this week...
I like brass cabooses because I prefer center-cupola models, and there is plenty of variety for these in brass. The "standard" SGRR model is a GM&O prototype, but a bunch of "one-offs" are in the fleet for variety.
Don't forget about that nifty business car your district supervisor is going to need. Brass models provide all kinds of options for these.
Also, brass models of various structures can give you excellent detail of otherwise very fragile models.
Then there are the wonderful brass bridges that are available. I love these, but have only three.
I know this was wordy, but I hope it was helpful.
Please feel free to ask more questions.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
reasearchhoundThanks Kevin, not too wordy at all. Thanks for taking the time to reply and post the pics.
Anytime, happy to help out and share my experiences.
Just a few random thoughts
There were and are brass locomotives that look great and run great. The problem is that there also were and are brass locomotives that look great but run poorly, sometimes very poorly. The nice appearances can be seductive. Vast number of brass engines look better than they run, or ever ran.
And to add to the challenges there are brass locomotives that look great and run smoothly and quietly but they just don't pull well. Usually smaller steam, and ironically smaller steam new out of the box where the nickle plating on the drivers has never worn and is just too slick. Just be aware that in many cases the tender is going to be the heaviest and worst rolling "car" a locomotive has to haul on your layout.
Sometimes the best bargains, if you are prepared to put some sweat equity into the purchase, are those that were poorly painted and lettered, or have been mishandled and look tatty, but nonetheless are mechanically sound and can be saved. I am not saying a collector should seek out badly painted brass, just that first (negative} impressions might be as misleading as first positive impressions. Buying in a context where you can inspect the wheel treads and see and hear the thing run on a test track is always good. Even then however, pilot trucks are notoriously poor trackers on some brass steam so a test run on a track with curves as well as tangent is nice if you can get it.
Some makes of brass steam in particular relied on rubber tubing to transmit power from motor to drive train. These tubes do not always age well and a locomotive can seem to be a poor runner but be rather easily brought back to life and be a good runner.
Dave Nelson
Lastspikemike Is anyone still making new brass locomotives? https://www.steamlocomotive.com/model/HO-data.php?data=brass
Is anyone still making new brass locomotives?
https://www.steamlocomotive.com/model/HO-data.php?data=brass
Division Point
Sunset Models
Glacier Park Models
The Coach Yard (occasionally does a loco, but mostly passenger cars)
Anyway, that's a start. Might be more.
Ed
7j43kDivision Point, Sunset Models
Some of these are listed on Brasstrains Dot Com.
Passenger cars seem to be the big seller right now.
Brass Trains is currently running a 24 Hour Flash Sale, and there should be a working link to it HERE
Wayne
doctorwayneBrass Trains is currently running a 24 Hour Flash Sale, and there should be a working link to it HERE
Thanks Wayne!
They finally put the slab side covered hoppers on sale that I have been thinking about for over a year! Only 10%, but it got me off of the fence. I bought one.
Guess what I will be sharing in Weekend Photo fun in two weeks!
Hey Kevin, Atlas will soon be releasing the former TrueLine Trains covered hopper cars. If I recall correctly, there are three different styles of covered hoppers, with a variety of roadnames, plus undecorated.
Thanks again Wayne.
The part number for the undecorated Atlas 12 hatch slab side hopper was 20006354. I had one pre-ordered, but I never received it. I never ran into one for sale on eBay either.
Searching for undecorated freight cars can be so frustrating.
I currently have four on pre-order with Rapido and one with Intermountain. We will see if I ever receive these. I sure hope I do.
dknelson Just a few random thoughts There were and are brass locomotives that look great and run great. The problem is that there also were and are brass locomotives that look great but run poorly, sometimes very poorly. The nice appearances can be seductive. Vast number of brass engines look better than they run, or ever ran.
I will disagree with this. Most brass steam locomotives run fine. Some are noisier than others, but for the most part they run very smooth.
From my experience, Westside, Sunset, Key, Hallmark ,NJCB, ALCO, etc (mid tier brass) all run very smooth and quite. Many of them need their old open frame motor replaced, but their gearboxes are top notch.
Other brass such as PFM united, Tenshodo, etc. tend to have noiser gearboxes, but they still can be made run smooth. These gearboxes can be fine tuned to run very well, it just takes some time making them work. Alternatively, it costs only like $30 more for a replacement NWSL gearbox to make them run buttery smooth, smoother than most RTR locos today!
I dont have experience with top tier brass (challenger, GPM, Overland) but you can bet they run amazing.
The nice thing about brass is the ease and ability to modify them. Replacing RTR models these days with a different gearbox would be a ton of work, but with the interchangabilty of brass loco design, changing out the gearboxes is a breeze! They are easy to disassemble, easy to modify, easy to upgrade.
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ALSO, while I respect Trainz on Ebay's reputation and grading scale, I've gotten TERRIBLE luck in terms of their packaging. The past TWO orders in a row from them had rather major damage. The first was a PFM PRR L1s. I got the box, opened it up and THERE WAS NO ENGINE. Contacted trainz, they apologized, loco arrived, packed the loco and tender coupled without foam in between, so the cab would slam into the tender front during shipping, causing the entire tender front and cab to be mangled upon arrival. Second was a Hallmark ATSF 2-8-0, which had the front end of the loco (pilot, ladders, etc) mangled. The pilot was pushed so hard the deck twisted upward and pilot, deck, ladders, all broke off individually. Each time I was partially refunded $30, but Im not sure if I'll ever buy from Trainz again.
If interested, here's a video on the unboxing damage, as well as a video documentary of the restoration/can motor/DCC sound install done on the loco!
PS This so called flash sale is just brasstrains trying to put small 5-10% discounts on items that have been in their inventory for far too long. Personally I didnt see anything worth getting (espcially after the "brasstrains tax") but Im glad you found something Kevin!
While brasstrains.com does offer a large variety of brass locomotives, rolling stock, and structure, expect to pay top dollar. Same for trainz.com.
Most of my brass acquisitions have been from eBay and all but only one has been a disappointment - an H20-44. The majority have been older, unpainted NJCB or Alco Models that run VERY smoothly and were purhased at reasonable prices. Most were also outfitted with can motors so converting them to DCC was fairly straightforward.
So, I've been quite happy with my brass locomotives. It's allowed me to pick up some very unique pieces in my road name that will more than likely never be produced in plastic.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstageMost of my brass acquisitions have been from eBay and all but one has been a disappointment.
Tom,
Did you mean "only one has been a disappointment?"
First off, thank you Kevin for the excellent writeup plus the great photos!
I have 14-brass models currently. Mostly rolling stock, a couple structures, and I had bought three brass steam engine models in the last several months. An Oriental Limited PRR M1a, a PSC B&M 2-8-4, and a Westside "Craftsman Series #6" NYC J3a "Super Hudson". The PRR M1a I'll be selling soon to free up funds for my shelf layout project. The PRR and NYC engines I got from Brasstrains.com and I've purchased from them before and have had good pretty good experiences. Their photos are excellent and I like that you can see the models up close before purchase. Their grading scale I agree is on the harsh side, but the NYC Hudson was described as being an average runner, but seems quite good to me! Their price guides are handy too. The PSC model I got from a private seller I met on a Facebook group. I've yet to buy a second-hand brass engine on eBay, but there are good sellers on there. Another option is Resourced Rails, they seem to take great care to describe what they're selling. Another option for brass is the BLI brass-hybrid series, as you'd get engines with brass construction, sound, and LED lighting, that'd usually run well out of the box. While those aren't true brass imports like those of the importers mentioned, there are some good pieces in that series. The B&M 2-8-4 and NYC 4-6-4 I'd like to convert to DCC and sound when I have both running super well, but those are an in the future project. The Westside model is the only Japanese built model I have, imported in 1978, and it's one of my all-time favorites. The detail is excellent and it runs better than my newer brass steam engines. I think with some tuning and cleaning, it'll run even better.
Alvie
Trainman440Most brass steam locomotives run fine. Some are noisier than others, but for the most part they run very smooth.
My Sunset, Key, and Alco USRA steamers all run very smooth and quiet. My Tenshodo and United models are noisier, but still smooth and reliable runners.
Trainman440Many of them need their old open frame motor replaced
I have not replaced a motor yet in a brass model, but I have the motors on hand to get it done.
Trainman440Alternatively, it costs only like $30 more for a replacement NWSL gearbox to make them run buttery smooth, smoother than most RTR locos today!
I also have a couple of NWSL gearboxes and other driveline components. Again, I have not made a replacement yet, but I am ready.
Trainman440I dont have experience with top tier brass (challenger, GPM, Overland) but you can bet they run amazing.
I don't have any of these either.
Trainman440They are easy to disassemble, easy to modify, easy to upgrade.
These are all appealing features for me.
Trainman440 I respect Trainz on Ebay's reputation and grading scale, I've gotten TERRIBLE luck in terms of their packaging.
I used to work in Atlanta at least one week a month, so I always picked up my Trainz orders in person in Buford. I cannot speak to their packaging, but this is bad to hear about your experiences.
Trainman440I'm glad you found something Kevin!
I had been watching those three covered hoppers for over a year. They never come up for sale on eBay, so I was beginning to accept that I was going to need to just pay the $150.00 to have one.
10% does not seem like much, but in this case, for an item I have wanted for a while, it was enough to tip the scale.
cats think well of meFirst off, thank you Kevin for the excellent writeup plus the great photos!
I had a good time writing that all down. I am glad you found it worth reading.
cats think well of meTheir grading scale I agree is on the harsh side, but the NYC Hudson was described as being an average runner, but seems quite good to me!
Several models I have bought from Brasstrains Dot Com have been described/graded as having tarnish. When I received the models, I sure did not see any tarnish.
They are pretty harsh, but then I guess that makes for less criticism.
SeeYou190 tstage Most of my brass acquisitions have been from eBay and all but one has been a disappointment. Tom, Did you mean "only one has been a disappointment?" -Kevin
tstage Most of my brass acquisitions have been from eBay and all but one has been a disappointment.
Thanks, Kevin. Correction made..
snjroyKevin will disagree with me but I would say that brass offerings are more appealing for steam than for diesel. Modern manufacturers of plastic diesels make really nice items... Let the debate begin!
If I am reading your post correctly, I think we have agreement.
For running models I prefer brass steam and plastic diesel. I do not have any brass diesels, except for the new (to me) FTs, that I plan to operate.
All my brass diesels were bought bargain-basement to be used as props in photographs. I bought the FTs at such a low price that if they do not continue to run well, I am OK with them becoming props as well.
My operating plastic diesel roster is about half Stewart/Kato F units, four Proto-2000 GP-9s, then a bunch of one-off stuff, E7, PA, Trainmaster, SD7, RS-1, NW2, and so on.
I do have a handful of Overland "brass" diesel power chassis. I plan to use these for projects because the mechanisms are small so there is plenty of room for a neat model on top.
I have a fair amount of brass (all HO steam) that I have purchased over the years as runners – not as eye candy (sometimes it’s nice if you get both). Most of my purchases are from Ebay and friends. All of my friends run brass and I have operated lots of brass locos over the years. Our interest in brass is mainly from the “accurate model of a specific prototype” point of view. I am not a fan of brass for the sake of owning brass. If I could run all modern plastic models of my prototypes, I would.
The brass market is so complex that it is not easy to give general advice about what to buy or not. When you are talking used items there can be issues with a specific unit or with the run in general…. Most importers/builders had great models and dogs – fortunately this information is well known in the modeling community so you can do a bit of research and asking around to get info on a specific model/importer. Often the various groups dedicated to a specific prototype can give you advice on a particular loco – which ones to avoid and which ones to seek out.
I would try to see the model run if possible. If that is not possible, make sure that you are paying a price that factors in the possibility that the item may need work to bring it up to snuff. I have dealt with Dans Brass trains and they are reputable but do remember that the opinion about how a model runs is quite subjective – one mans “good runner’ could be another’s “basketcase”.
Follow the models you are interested in on Ebay for awhile before making a purchase to get an idea of the current value of the model. I have about half a dozen models I have been following for years and I know what the current prices are though eBay searches. These are often different than what you might see on various websites or in books.
Find some one local who can work on brass locomotives to help you fix things and to offer advice. My bacon has been saved many times by our local “brass guru”.
One other item to mention is that I have bought some models on Ebay that were poorly packed and arrived damaged. I now sent a note to the seller offering to pay more to ensure that the item is properly packed (double boxed with a crush zone).
Good luck with the hunt for your favorites. When they run well, brass locos are thing of beauty in motion.
Here is a link to a tongue in cheek video about brass running qualities:
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
trainnut1250 Our interest in brass is mainly from the “accurate model of a specific prototype” point of view. I am not a fan of brass for the sake of owning brass. If I could run all modern plastic models of my prototypes, I would.
Our interest in brass is mainly from the “accurate model of a specific prototype” point of view. I am not a fan of brass for the sake of owning brass. If I could run all modern plastic models of my prototypes, I would.
A bit off topic, but here I go, brass vs plastic (or diecast) rant.
I dont own brass over plastic just because its brass either. There is an odd steryotype of brass owners being asses and having a superiority complex of sorts. I dont own brass in order to feel superior, that wouldnt be right.
At the same time though, if given the option I wouldnt buy only plastic either. I model PRR, there are MANY plastic PRR models, many of which are even more detailed than brass. I have many of both. I like the simple nature of plastic locos, HOWEVER, it seems like these days plastic locos are getting ridiculously expensive, to the point where it would be cheaper to buy a brass loco, paint and a decoder than it would be to buy plastic these days. Therefore, my decision is simply based on whichever option would be cheaper. I enjoy working on my locos anyways, so the extra work a brass locos often requires doesnt bother me.
I guess in a way I am defending those brass owners who are real snarky about their locos, but I think a brass owner SHOULD feel proud of their loco if they spent hours repairing and upgrading it, just like I think owners who have customized and upgraded plastic or diecast locos should. The material composition of your loco should be irrelevant.
To clarify, when I say plastic, I also mean diecast...basically anything thats RTR out of the box.
Most all of my brass has come from Resourced Rails and Brasstrains websites. Once and a while I will pick up a piece off ebay if the price is right. I am able to fix/repower most engines, so even if its dead and the price is right, I will buy it. Train shows post Covid have had a nice selection of brass at them, something I was not seeing much of pre covid. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Alvie,
If you're interested in letting go of your Westside Super Hudson please send me a PM.
Sorry. Just re-read your post and realised it's only the PRR loco you're offloading.
As others have said brasstrains.com is an excellent resource and they cannot be faulted in their dealings. In addition to their sales they do a layaway for 3 months which is, in reality, 4 payments. I bought a Challenger Imports C&O F-19, absolutly mint, for $895 in a sale about a year ago and paid it in 4 lots of $240 incl shipping to the UK. Hardly noticed it. Thats getting into some of the newer BLI territory. It's also great for putting watches on items in the guide section and then when something comes up you can get email updates to see what sells and how quickly, or if it becomes a sale item.
If I had anything new to add to the thread it would be cast a wide net. As an example there's a site that a widow of an avid collector is selling some fabulous items through and she says she has mountains of stuff still to go out:
https://jimwalshcollection.com/
It's the way of things that these types of site don't get too far up the Google rankings but they are out there at times.
I picked up a new-in-the-box Key Cincinnatian locomotive and passenger car set for the price the cars would go for at brasstrains.com. Couldn't believe my luck!
Also picked up a Key Empire State Express Hudson for about 2/3 of what I see them for. Again a brand new item.
Maybe she has something you are interested in.