Hi All,
I want to put knuckle couplers on this smooth-running RS-1. It's a made-in-Japan Atlas Yellow Box Kato model. It has these goofy horn couplers on it and when I went to see about swapping them out, I became dumbfounded and nonplussed. What is this? And how am I supposed to remove the coupler from it?
It just looks like a plastic peg with a flange. There's not even a "box" around or over it; you can see the spring of the coupler curling around it.
Do I just grip it with needlenose pliars and pull? Pull and twist? Is there some arcane incantation that I should recite while burning dried banana chips? I've never seen this before, not sure how to proceed.
Ideas to try (and incantations) welcome. Thanks,
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
Cannot say for sure, but those horeshoe shaped clips look like retaining rings. If so, just pull them straight out with needle nosed pliers.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainthose horeshoe shaped clips look like retaining rings
Grab the pin and pull it out, some twisting may help.
Friction pins are a pretty common thing from that era of model trains....
Sheldon
It has been a long time since the conversion to Kadee couplers for my two RS3's, and I don't remember much.
After getting rid of the original coupler, a common Kadee #5 was the replacement. The coupler box needed some minor filing to fit. A 2-56 screw holds it together.
This photo should help. It was not difficult.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
It's difficult to tell from the photo if the coupler is mounted to the plastic body shell or on the metal frame. I just took a look at my Atlas S-2, and it has the same type of "pin" attachment, but it's securing a Kadee coupler along with a draught gear box that's not a Kadee product.I used smallish pliers to gently grasp the pin and it pulled out easily. If yours are similar (they certainly look similar) they may be useful in securing Kadee couplers. If not, you may need to drill and tap, which will allow you to secure the Kadee coupler boxes using suitably-sized screws.
Wayne
Well I pulled the pin out. That was easy. But the coupler's spring action is too wide to come forward out of the hole. I may end up having to cut it apart to remove it and I decided I need to do a little more recon, and make sure I have the Kadee couplers handy that I want to use. I'm wondering if it even needs the screw, because if I can get a Kadee coupler in there, I would think the pin would hold it like it did the other. It's pretty snug.
Hi Matt,
I'm speculating here so this may be out to lunch:
Using the pin to mount a Kadee coupler may lead to some complications. My first concern would be coupler sag. However, if the spring does have sufficient tension to hold the coupler level, then I would be worried that the coupler may not rotate freely. Finally, if the coupler rotates directly on the pin, I would be worried about the pin coming loose over time. It will repeatedly be pushed and pulled forward and back as the car moves. Sometimes it will be under tension from pulling. Sometimes it will be under the opposite tension as the train slows down or descends a grade.
It may take a little work to install a Kadee coupler box but the installation will be bullet proof.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critterIt may take a little work to install a Kadee coupler box but the installation will be bullet proof.
You've convinced me.
crossthedogYou've convinced me.
That's great. I would suggest that you have a coupler height gauge handy. If you don't already have one, Kadee sells two versions. One is metal. It will cause a short if used on live track. The other has a plastic body so you can use it anywhere. I recommend the plastic one:
https://www.kadee.com/ho-scale-tools-and-accessories-c-274_282_316/206-ho-insulated-mutipurpose-coupler-height-gauge-p-315.htm
If the frame is metal, I would suggest a 20 series kadee coupler since they have non-conductive shanks.
I think it is better to prevent all possibilities of electrical problems up front.
Kadee couplers always work best in Kadee boxes, so I machine my locomotive frames to accept the whole assembly.
Picture:
-Kevin
Living the dream.
LastspikemikeThe Kadee whisker coupler is the one to use.
Mike, I was glad to hear this since I actually have some of those on hand. But upon seeing Kevin's note about conductivity, it sounds like I might need to use an insulated coupler because the frame is metal. At least I assumed it is and it felt like it. I'm at work right now so I'll have to look more closely later.
One thing I worry about... there is already a hole for the plastic friction-mounted pin, and it looks larger than the only tap I have, so getting a box on there will be a challenge. Oh well, I love buying more tools, just don't love waiting for them to arrive.
I went and looked at my two Atlas GP-7s from the same period (both in 1949 EMD Demonstrator scheme). Looks like what I did is on one engine, I put in the gold Kadee spring gizmo with the coupler, put a cover from a Kadee coupler box over that, and then used the pin to hold it all together. On the other, I did the same thing but used a screw. I'd guess a 2-56, but not sure. Probably just something from the junk bin in my toolbox. I've had these a long time, so far so good.
The frames on these older Atlas ones are metal. Since I always run these together, I used plastic dummy couplers (Accurail couplers, same head size and shape as Kadee 5's) at the rear of each unit. I don't know if there would be an issue using metal couplers between them or not.
I have worked several of these type coupler installations and would highly recommend the use of the Kadee coupler box to enclose whatever Kadee coupler you chose, whisker or traditional #5. The frame is metal and even though wires run from the trucks to the motor, the Kadee coupler box will preclude any possible short circuit developing.
I have used both screws, 2-56, and the coupler pin installed by Atlas, and both work well.
Don; Prez, CEO or whatever of the Wishram, Oregon and Western RR
Hello.
I checked my Atlas RS-1 from that period and found that I had put the Kadee box into the slot after triming the ears off of the sides of the box and put the friction pin right back in. It's been in place for at least 12 years without incident.
Scott Sonntag
Lakeshore Sub Hello. I checked my Atlas RS-1 from that period and found that I had put the Kadee box into the slot after triming the ears off of the sides of the box and put the friction pin right back in. It's been in place for at least 12 years without incident. Scott Sonntag
This worked for me. Except I used a 2-56 screw and also trimmed that top edge off the Kadee coupler box's top front.
Be careful not to run the 2-56 tap through or dent the top side of the walkway. This never happen to me and may never can happen at all, but maybe it could with somebody not careful.
Yellow Box Atlas RS1 has a metal frame and metal pads for the coupler.
Yellow Box Atlas RS3 has a metal frame, BUT the coupler is mounted on the plastic walkway and is a stupid design. The coupler will flex up or down depending on the load.
Black Box Atlas RS3 has a plastic walkway a metal frame and metal coupler mounting pads. Much better.
I would think anybody in HO Scale should have the minimum of taps and drill bits to be,
00-90 tap, #60 tap drill, #55 clear drill.
0-80 tap, #56 tap drill, #51 clear drill.
1-72 tap, #53 tap drill, #47 clear drill.
2-56 tap, #50 tap drill, #42 clear drill.
And an assortment (length and head type) of brass screws to match the taps. Also throw in some steel self tapping screws.
I also have TAPER, PLUG and BOTTOMING type of taps in the four above sizes.
PC101Yellow Box Atlas RS1 has a metal frame and metal pads for the coupler.
PC101I would think anybody in HO Scale should have the minimum of taps and drill bits to be, 00-90 tap, #60 tap drill, #55 clear drill. 0-80 tap, #56 tap drill, #51 clear drill. 1-72 tap, #53 tap drill, #47 clear drill. 2-56 tap, #50 tap drill, #42 clear drill. And an assortment (length and head type) of brass screws to match the taps. Also throw in some steel self tapping screws. I also have TAPER, PLUG and BOTTOMING type of taps in the four above sizes.
Right. It's a matter of budgeting. I've had to start from zero -- no tools or supplies -- and I'm running down to the hobby shop or the hardware store every weekend for tools, track, cork, wire, drill bits, taps, a soldering iron --every next thing I need. It adds up. But thanks for the recommended list... that's useful.
LastspikemikeBachmann EZ Mate II are plastic and would work like Kadee 148 whisker couplers.
I'll ask my train store guy to show me some of these and see if he recommends them. I'm a little leary only because I would want high quality on a loco, especially such a nice loco.
Lakeshore SubI checked my Atlas RS-1 from that period and found that I had put the Kadee box into the slot after triming the ears off of the sides of the box and put the friction pin right back in.
crossthedog PC101 Yellow Box Atlas RS1 has a metal frame and metal pads for the coupler. I'm not sure what "pads" are (I'll look it up), but if they're metal it sounds like I should use the nonconductive couplers.
PC101 Yellow Box Atlas RS1 has a metal frame and metal pads for the coupler.
I'm not sure what "pads" are (I'll look it up), but if they're metal it sounds like I should use the nonconductive couplers.
PADS. That is just the flat surface that the coupler box aka DRAFT GEAR BOX will mount to. The ''PAD'' could be a flat surface on the bottom of the floor of a railroad car that a coupler box would mount to.
Some times you may have to build up the area/pad on the railroad car or Loco. to get the coupler box and coupler at the right height. These built up pieces would be called "shims''. So if you place shims between the coupler box and the bottom of a car floor a ''centerset shank'' coupler will get closer to the rail. So you just lowered the coupler head to come to the the correct height off the rail to match up to the KADEE COUPLER GAUGE you should have and be using.
Some times you may have to remove some of the pad to raise the coupler. Of course Kadee does make OVERSET, CENTERSET and UNDERSET shank couplers. Also SHORT, MEDIUM and LONG shank and STANDARD and SCALE head.
I can not think of too many cars or Locos. if any that the "pad" is below the coupler box.
The picture is of the Atlas RS3. Just to show you a pad and a no pad frame. Top frame has a metal pad. Bottom frame has no pad.
Your yellow box Atlas RS1 has a metal frame with a coupler "pad" that is metal and molded with the frame. So you could use a Kadee plastic coupler box with a metal Kadee coupler (my first choice) or as some others suggested a plastic shank and head coupler.
crossthedog What does this mean with regard to Kevin's suggestion earlier of a 20 series Kadee?
You need to go to KADEE's web site. 20 Series (for example 21,22,23,24,25,26 more or less), 30 Series (example 31,32,34,36,38 more or less) and see all the different couplers designs.
Cross The Dog:
I cannot stress this enough... DO NOT use any Kadee-Clone "will fits" or "knock offs" when you do coupler installations. They will only lead to certain disappointment.
If something comes factory equipped with an iffy-off-brand coupler, fine, use it until it fails. But... if you are doing the work, use only genuine Kadee.
As for the non-conductive 20 series, no, it should not be necessary.
HOWEVER... Once you have had the frustration of trying to find an intermittent short circuit, I can guarantee you that the ease of double-insulating anything is worth the effort on the front-side.
Just my .
SeeYou190 Cross The Dog: I cannot stress this enough... DO NOT use any Kadee-Clone "will fits" or "knock offs" when you do coupler installations. They will only lead to certain disappointment. If something comes factory equipped with an iffy-off-brand coupler, fine, use it until it fails. But... if you are doing the work, use only genuine Kadee. -Kevin
I like the way you think Mr. Kevin.
But of course people if you do fall in to the Kadee clone disappointment syndrome, don't throw them away. There is still a use for them.
I'm going to try the idea Scott (Lakeshore) mentioned of giving a Kadee box the Van Gogh treatment and sliding it into the channel through the pilot gap. To this end, I bought a number 5 Kadee box. I don't yet know if it will fit even after I cut the ears off, and then there's the point Mike made about the coupler being lower when the box is included, but I'll worry about that later and get underset couplers if I have to.
@Kevin. I hear you. I wouldn't use anything but Kadee when I can get them so easily.
crossthedogTo this end, I bought a number 5 Kadee box.
The "#5 coupler box" is actually the #232 coupler box from Kadee. The #232 box is included with #5 and all 20 series couplers.
Kadee makes a couple of snap together coupler boxes that are very inexpensive and useful to have on hand.
The #242 is a "universal" black box similar in size the the #232, but does not have the outside ears. It is specified for use with whisker couplers, but I have used it with #5s and 20 series couplers with no problems.
The #252 has nearly the same dimensions as the ever-useful 30 series coupler box, but it works with whisker couplers and is much easier to assemble. For what it is worth, I think the 30 series coupler spring provides more positive centering action than the whisker coupler in a #252 box. I am good at assembling 30 series couplers, so I do not use very many #252s.
The #262 coupler box is a narrow design that only works with whisker couplers. It will fit in places that the #232 and #242 will not, but it has less coupler swing from side-to-side. I think the #262 looks more realistic than the #232 or #242, so I use these on freight cars quite often.
These are worth the few bucks it costs to have some around on the workbench.
crossthedogThe coupler being lower when the box is included, but I'll worry about that later and get underset couplers if I have to.
The underset couplers are a very easy way to correct this, if it happens. I usually file off so much material from the frame that I need a wasker or two to lower the coupler.
Also, if you assemble the #242 or #252 coupler boxes "upside down" with the lid on top, it raises the coupler slightly.
On an #5, do not be tempted to assemble the coupler with the spring below the coupler to raise it up. The spring needs to be on top of the #5 coupler for best performance. (I have a few with the spring on the bottom, and they work OK, but not recommended)
@Kevin, thanks for all that. I've clipped that info out and saving it for future reference.
By the by, the trick about clipping the ears off the box and sliding it in through the pilot hole worked fine. Bit of a squeeze but it went in, and the coupler height seems perfect, which startled me. The only explanation I can think of is that maybe the horn coupler might be thicker so that without a box it had about the same vertical center as the kadee coupler WITH the box.
Only one thing worries me. When I clipped off the "ears" of the box, I could then see metal inside the box very close to the resulting "earhole" I had created. I'm hoping that this does not create any conductivity.
crossthedogWhen I clipped off the "ears" of the box, I could then see metal inside the box very close to the resulting "earhole" I had created.
The metal you are seeing is probably the coupler spring.
It is not a problem unless all these conditions are met: The spring must contact the frame of the locomotive, the locomotive frame must be part of the electrical circuit, the coupler is metal (#5, #48, etc), it must be coupled to another locomotive or freight car with a metal coupler, that coupler contacting an energized frame, and that frame is grounded to the opposite rail.
That is a lot to happen at once, so it is VERY unlikely.
None-the-less, I would still install a #28 insulated coupler just to be 100% sure.
Glad to hear the coupler height worked out OK. That is why I always just built it first, and adjust the coupler later. Trying to calculate the coupler height on the front side does not work out well for me.
This is a great reference to have on hand.
Click for a larger view.
SeeYou190 The metal you are seeing is probably the coupler spring. It is not a problem unless all these conditions are met: The spring must contact the frame of the locomotive, the locomotive frame must be part of the electrical circuit, the coupler is metal (#5, #48, etc), it must be coupled to another locomotive or freight car with a metal coupler, that coupler contacting an energized frame, and that frame is grounded to the opposite rail. That is a lot to happen at once, so it is VERY unlikely. None-the-less, I would still install a #28 insulated coupler just to be 100% sure. - - - - - - - - - - Glad to hear the coupler height worked out OK. That is why I always just built it first, and adjust the coupler later. Trying to calculate the coupler height on the front side does not work out well for me.
As noted above with SeeYou190, I also build first then adjust the coupler in place.
My yellow box Atlas RS1 has the coupler box #232 with it's ears removed and the flat centering spring #634 with a #58 coupler work fine. I do file the paint off of the coupler pad of the frame.
The flat spring sides will not exit the coupler box with it's ears cut off. Do not paint the spring's sides that you see through the box's sides. If the coupler box is tight. File a little of the box's sides away. Then blow out the filings so they do not get in with the spring and coupler. If you look at the coupler box with ears you will see that the sides have a taper from top to bottom. If seeing the spring bothers you, coat the sides of the spring before putting it together with a BLACK SHARPIE PEN.