doctorwayne I dunno...after all the discussion, I don't see much need for the self-centering feature, unless maybe you're suffering from the DTs. I can easily re-rail cars that three or four tracks away, with their trucks not even visible. Wayne
I dunno...after all the discussion, I don't see much need for the self-centering feature, unless maybe you're suffering from the DTs.
I can easily re-rail cars that three or four tracks away, with their trucks not even visible.
Wayne
Agreed, I commented earlier about its minimal value, but the bushing itself provides a better fit than just a screw. That is the main reason I started using them.
Sheldon
I can easily re-rail cars that are three or four tracks away, with their trucks not even visible.
Water Level Route richhotrain I guess that it is amusing how far this thread has degenerated from its original purpose. Just like the Isn't the Local Hobby Shop Obsolete thread. It only takes a few. Rich My apologies to contributing to that end Rich.
richhotrain I guess that it is amusing how far this thread has degenerated from its original purpose. Just like the Isn't the Local Hobby Shop Obsolete thread. It only takes a few. Rich
I guess that it is amusing how far this thread has degenerated from its original purpose. Just like the Isn't the Local Hobby Shop Obsolete thread.
It only takes a few.
Rich
My apologies to contributing to that end Rich.
Alton Junction
Mike
Lastspikemike Overmod Lastspikemike I'm not telling anyone how anything "works". I'm just posting what I know. I don't post what I don't know. What you posted earlier was that the 'points' exerted a gentle steering action to center the truck as the car ran. That is the incorrect assertion that he's complaining about. "The wedgy extensions on the sides of the otherwise round bushing are what "index" the bushing across the car and in turn index the trucks so they too hang exactly across the car with the wheels in line with the track to make rerailing easier. This feature also helps the car track better almost like the self centering of the steering on your road car, simple but clever." The 'centering' action only occurs when the car is lifted high enough to drop the truck bolster far enough down on the bushing to engage the centering. The bushing is engineered with enough depth that normal car rock will not cause engagement. It is NOT a continuous-centering arrangement. One of the key points of prototype three-piece design is that the sideframes be free to work up and down independent of the bolster. That means they are not rigidly fixed to the bolster (see the problem with 'Ohio' tender trucks) but very careful wedging is provided to eliminate any play in "skew". A truck design that facilitates three-piece action is the Taylor truck, which provides a big circular bearing around the entire spring nest that is the geometric pivot for the 'scissor' action. Well, curiosity got the better of me so I checked my caboose. The wedges in the bushing engage with recesses in the truck at "x" degrees of rotation of the truck causing that end of the caboose to lift off that truck. So, there is a self centering effect at some radius of curve. The practical effect is to create two soft stops in truck rotation. Lifting the car then causes the recesses to drop into a fully engaged centered position. It may well be, probable even, that this self centering force never operates on curves of the usual radius used on our layouts. I didn't check the effective radius required for the stop effect to be reached.
Overmod Lastspikemike I'm not telling anyone how anything "works". I'm just posting what I know. I don't post what I don't know. What you posted earlier was that the 'points' exerted a gentle steering action to center the truck as the car ran. That is the incorrect assertion that he's complaining about. "The wedgy extensions on the sides of the otherwise round bushing are what "index" the bushing across the car and in turn index the trucks so they too hang exactly across the car with the wheels in line with the track to make rerailing easier. This feature also helps the car track better almost like the self centering of the steering on your road car, simple but clever." The 'centering' action only occurs when the car is lifted high enough to drop the truck bolster far enough down on the bushing to engage the centering. The bushing is engineered with enough depth that normal car rock will not cause engagement. It is NOT a continuous-centering arrangement. One of the key points of prototype three-piece design is that the sideframes be free to work up and down independent of the bolster. That means they are not rigidly fixed to the bolster (see the problem with 'Ohio' tender trucks) but very careful wedging is provided to eliminate any play in "skew". A truck design that facilitates three-piece action is the Taylor truck, which provides a big circular bearing around the entire spring nest that is the geometric pivot for the 'scissor' action.
Lastspikemike I'm not telling anyone how anything "works". I'm just posting what I know. I don't post what I don't know.
What you posted earlier was that the 'points' exerted a gentle steering action to center the truck as the car ran. That is the incorrect assertion that he's complaining about.
"The wedgy extensions on the sides of the otherwise round bushing are what "index" the bushing across the car and in turn index the trucks so they too hang exactly across the car with the wheels in line with the track to make rerailing easier. This feature also helps the car track better almost like the self centering of the steering on your road car, simple but clever."
The 'centering' action only occurs when the car is lifted high enough to drop the truck bolster far enough down on the bushing to engage the centering. The bushing is engineered with enough depth that normal car rock will not cause engagement. It is NOT a continuous-centering arrangement.
One of the key points of prototype three-piece design is that the sideframes be free to work up and down independent of the bolster. That means they are not rigidly fixed to the bolster (see the problem with 'Ohio' tender trucks) but very careful wedging is provided to eliminate any play in "skew".
A truck design that facilitates three-piece action is the Taylor truck, which provides a big circular bearing around the entire spring nest that is the geometric pivot for the 'scissor' action.
Well, curiosity got the better of me so I checked my caboose.
The wedges in the bushing engage with recesses in the truck at "x" degrees of rotation of the truck causing that end of the caboose to lift off that truck. So, there is a self centering effect at some radius of curve.
The practical effect is to create two soft stops in truck rotation. Lifting the car then causes the recesses to drop into a fully engaged centered position.
It may well be, probable even, that this self centering force never operates on curves of the usual radius used on our layouts. I didn't check the effective radius required for the stop effect to be reached.
There you have it, right from Sam at Kadee.
I never tried to spin them 360 degrees, underbody parts are always in the way......
LastspikemikeThe wedges in the bushing engage with recesses in the truck at "x" degrees of rotation of the truck causing that end of the caboose to lift off that truck. So, there is a self centering effect at some radius of curve.
More experimentation is in order, rather than accusations. I'd be interested to see if ATLANTIC CENTRAL can recreate or observe this effect.
[EDIT: I see Sam has posted while I was typing this. I have wondered whether a good approach here would be to drill a small hole in the car bolster, 'indexed' to one of those bushing slots, and insert a short length of wire or rod or a small screw to form a stop that engages a bushing slot. That would give you a simple self-center as the tightening gets down to 'final' -- you gently rotate the truck back and forth with the frame pulled down as you tighten that last turn or two and feel for the alignment.]
I think I need to help this out a bit. The instructions for the Kadee trucks are "only" for installing the trucks on "non-Kadee" rolling stock. Kadee cars are designed for the self-centering trucks and do not require any modification to install other Kadee trucks. When installing the trucks on non Kadee cars a flat surfaces is needed. When you tighten down the truck (bushing) you have to keep the bushing in it's proper position and how you do that is up to the installer as long as the bushing ends in the right position. I lift the truck against the bushing as I tighten the screw at the sametime and I might rotate it just enough so when the screw reaches the require tightness the final twist also rotates the bushing into alignment.
The "self-centering" feature is "only" engaged when the car is lifted up and is "completely disengaged" when the car is sitting on the wheels. If the car's underframe allows the trucks will rotate 360° as the centering bushing is just a pivoting post the trucks rotate on when the car is setting on the rails and in operation.
I'd like to thank all those that have commented about our trucks and have mentioned the points I have addressed again.
Sam Clarke R&D Kadee Quality Products
Water Level RouteNobody knows what they don't know. The issue is accepting that truth and that others may know more. Words to live by.
One thing about lastspikemike: no matter how strongly he makes a bonehead assertion, he'll never make the mistake again when he learns the correction. Which is an insanely valuable skill for a lawyer even if it opens you up to potential accusations of flip-flopping when you suddenly start Stalin-like strongly advocating just the opposite position you might have been trying to argue a few moments before.
One of the problems with true command is that, as 'no plan survives contact with the enemy', a leader has to be able to make dramatic changes in plan 'on the fly', on the basis of received information, and let the previous opinions go when that happens, if the welfare of subordinates or followers is to be best assured. The key -- as lastspikemike has said about himself -- is not that you started with wrong assumptions, but that you correct yourself promptly when you discover they are wrong.
(Of course this ties into the other issue, intentionally spewing out bad advice as if it were known good, but with time and self-discipline, intelligent men and women learn to 'eschew that behavior'. I recently had to remove a couple of fairly long posts that turned out to contain crook information, so it's a lifeling-learning experience for me, a sinner, too.)
LastspikemikeThe self centering action of the HGC trucks also tends to straighten the alignment of the truck by the weight of the car sitting on the trucks.
Lastspikemike I'm not telling anyone how anything "works".
LastspikemikeI think one or two is sufficient to understand what's needed.
Ralph Waldo Emerson once said "In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him." Words everyone should keep in mind.
LastspikemikeI'm not telling anyone how anything "works". I'm just posting what I know. I don't post what I don't know.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Let me just say that after I installed the two new trucks from Kadee yesterday, that covered hopper rolled along the mainline, after a gentle push, better than any other piece of rolling stock on my layout. And most of those pieces of rolling stock are equipped with Intermountain metal wheels. So, I plan to keep that covered hopper equipped with the Kadee wheelsets. Rich Did you use a truck turner on the plastic sideframes before installing the Intermountain wheelsets? Sheldon Yes.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Let me just say that after I installed the two new trucks from Kadee yesterday, that covered hopper rolled along the mainline, after a gentle push, better than any other piece of rolling stock on my layout. And most of those pieces of rolling stock are equipped with Intermountain metal wheels. So, I plan to keep that covered hopper equipped with the Kadee wheelsets. Rich Did you use a truck turner on the plastic sideframes before installing the Intermountain wheelsets? Sheldon
richhotrain Let me just say that after I installed the two new trucks from Kadee yesterday, that covered hopper rolled along the mainline, after a gentle push, better than any other piece of rolling stock on my layout. And most of those pieces of rolling stock are equipped with Intermountain metal wheels. So, I plan to keep that covered hopper equipped with the Kadee wheelsets. Rich
Let me just say that after I installed the two new trucks from Kadee yesterday, that covered hopper rolled along the mainline, after a gentle push, better than any other piece of rolling stock on my layout. And most of those pieces of rolling stock are equipped with Intermountain metal wheels. So, I plan to keep that covered hopper equipped with the Kadee wheelsets.
Did you use a truck turner on the plastic sideframes before installing the Intermountain wheelsets?
Yes.
I will address this when I get some drawings ready and start another thread.
Mike, See my PS above.
Maybe you need more like my 800 pair experience with this product before you start telling people how they work.
The V on the bushing only engages the V in the bolster when the car is picked up. Sitting on the rails it has more than enough rotational travel for any curve the car will go around before the V makes any contact.
Different styles represent different prototypes, from different builders in different applications from different eras.
Google it, MR and others have several articles out there, so does the NMRA.
Lastspikemike SeeYou190 richhotrain I replace the wheelsets with Intermountain as well. But these wheels roll pretty freely, so I may leave well enough alone. Rich, In order to remove the axles from HGC trucks, the truck sideframes must be seperated. To do this, I remove the brakes and centering pin, then drop the truck into a glass bowl from about 3 inches. It will re-kit itself and the axles will be out. They are pretty easy to put back together. -Kevin This is incorrect information. After my post I just went down to my train room and dropped the axles out of a Kadee Caboose HGC truck without removing or even touching the securing screw. No problem.
SeeYou190 richhotrain I replace the wheelsets with Intermountain as well. But these wheels roll pretty freely, so I may leave well enough alone. Rich, In order to remove the axles from HGC trucks, the truck sideframes must be seperated. To do this, I remove the brakes and centering pin, then drop the truck into a glass bowl from about 3 inches. It will re-kit itself and the axles will be out. They are pretty easy to put back together. -Kevin
richhotrain I replace the wheelsets with Intermountain as well. But these wheels roll pretty freely, so I may leave well enough alone.
Rich, In order to remove the axles from HGC trucks, the truck sideframes must be seperated. To do this, I remove the brakes and centering pin, then drop the truck into a glass bowl from about 3 inches. It will re-kit itself and the axles will be out.
They are pretty easy to put back together.
-Kevin
This is incorrect information.
After my post I just went down to my train room and dropped the axles out of a Kadee Caboose HGC truck without removing or even touching the securing screw. No problem.
I find that this varies from one side frame style to another. Some styles flex enough, some styles do not.
The play in the sprung metal trucks also vary from style to style.
And Mike, there is no centering action when the car sits on the track, only when it is picked up and the trucks are allowed to hang.
PS - The other point that should be made here is that the Kadee Delrin axle is fragile, the tips are easily damaged by aggressive removal, and bending the axle can result in a perminate bend and thereby a wobble/out of gauge condition during operation.
richhotrain trwroute I install Kadee sprung trucks on pretty much all of my HO stuff, but I stay away from the self-centering trucks. I just prefer the much simpler screw and maybe a Kadee red washer on top. I have tried them, but I just don't like the loose feel. To me, simple is good especially with something like mounting a truck. Now that might be an interesting separate thread - - self centering trucks versus non-self centering trucks. Either way, I have no skin in the game. I chose the #562 self centering trucks based upon the advice of Kadee's Sam The Answer Man. Rich
trwroute I install Kadee sprung trucks on pretty much all of my HO stuff, but I stay away from the self-centering trucks. I just prefer the much simpler screw and maybe a Kadee red washer on top. I have tried them, but I just don't like the loose feel. To me, simple is good especially with something like mounting a truck.
I install Kadee sprung trucks on pretty much all of my HO stuff, but I stay away from the self-centering trucks. I just prefer the much simpler screw and maybe a Kadee red washer on top. I have tried them, but I just don't like the loose feel.
To me, simple is good especially with something like mounting a truck.
Now that might be an interesting separate thread - - self centering trucks versus non-self centering trucks. Either way, I have no skin in the game. I chose the #562 self centering trucks based upon the advice of Kadee's Sam The Answer Man.
Chuck is referring to how the self entering truck drops away from the car when you pick it up. I understand his feeling about this, but the bushing proveds less side to side play and a smother pivot surface then a screw in most cases.
When the car is on the track, that up and down play has no effect either way.
Maybe it is also worth noting that on the prototype most trucks are not secured to the car. Gravity holds them on, a pin simply fits in a hole, and the center bearing has a flange.
That is why the trucks come off in a crash.
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
Ok, given my schedule, it will take a day or two.
But I will be happy to share.
ATLANTIC CENTRALIt would take several engineering drawings to explain why the Intermountain wheelset makes the truck roll better - maybe I will draw them up and start a separate thread.
Thanks, Sheldon.
Rich,
A few thoughts about recent comments.
Kevin is right, the HGC trucks are hard to get the wheelsets out of without disassembly.
The HGC trucks roll better than the sprung metal trucks, but only by a very small margin based on my tests.
There is a learned skill to flexing the sideframes of the metal sprung trucks in opposite directions to drop the wheelset out with removing/loosing the springs.
Having done about 800 pair, I have that down pretty well.
As trains get longer and heavier, the equalization means better tracking and less derailments. The other side benefit is the added weight of the metal or HGC truck over a plastic rigid truck is added down low, where it helps tracking the most.
The Intermountain wheelset in the Kadee sprung truck, with a small drop of light oil (because you are now metal axle to metal sideframe), is exceptionally free rolling and firm tracking.
I was already heavily invested in Kadee trucks when I became interested in reducing rolling resistance, and once I hit on the Kadee/Intermountain combo, it was interesting to find no rigid plastic truck could surpass them.
It would take several engineering drawings to explain why the Intermountain wheelset makes the truck roll better - maybe I will draw them up and start a separate thread.
Living the dream.
Lastspikemike The Kadee trucks flex enough to allow you to take out and install wheelsets without removing the truck from the car. This applies to both metal and HGC plastic trucks.
The Kadee trucks flex enough to allow you to take out and install wheelsets without removing the truck from the car. This applies to both metal and HGC plastic trucks.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL That's why Kevin and I put them on everything, they are better, For me, I guess that time will tell if the Kadee trucks are better. But, in the meantime, let me ask, is it the center bushing that makes it better? Rich Rich, the most important feature is equalization, flexing to keep all four wheels on the rail at the same time. The bushing is a bonus, and I install Intermountain wheelsets to make them more free rolling. Sheldon
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL That's why Kevin and I put them on everything, they are better, For me, I guess that time will tell if the Kadee trucks are better. But, in the meantime, let me ask, is it the center bushing that makes it better? Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL That's why Kevin and I put them on everything, they are better,
That's why Kevin and I put them on everything, they are better,
For me, I guess that time will tell if the Kadee trucks are better. But, in the meantime, let me ask, is it the center bushing that makes it better?
Rich, the most important feature is equalization, flexing to keep all four wheels on the rail at the same time.
The bushing is a bonus, and I install Intermountain wheelsets to make them more free rolling.