Doughlessthey are allowed to walk around the yard to check for additions or even large porches or decks that might add significant value. But that might only be once every 10 years.
Russell
ATLANTIC CENTRALAfter the inspections I added insulation, HVAC, osb walls, and beadboard ceiling to the train room. Even if the county had known about these improvements it would not have been considered living space because there was no bathroom or running water in the garage, and it was detached from the house.
Yes, what I am used to seeing is the definition of living space being the major factor in determining assessed value when it comes to things like remodels. The county records for my house show 2700 SF, which is only the above ground portion. But homeowner basement finishings are common around here, and the full finished SF living space is 3,700 SF...not in the tax records (who ever did it did a pretty good job. Drywal hung and sanded properly, access ports for upstairs kitchen sink water access, outside water spigot shut off, little touches, etc). My basement train room is a third garage stall with a garage door but that I had drywalled, but its not living space. My house is a good example of the various levels of "finished" space that the local tax records sees differently.
And no, they do not come into the house unless invited, but I believe they are allowed to walk around the yard to check for additions or even large porches or decks that might add significant value. But that might only be once every 10 years.
- Douglas
I can't speak for other parts of the country, but around here property assessments are done by a stand alone state agency. But the property tax is paid to the counties. An issue of honesty and transparency.
Assessors use dollar amounts and basic descriptions of work from permit filings, but cannot come in your home or on your property without permission.
Real estate sales, and the wealth of public information that creates about the property are the single biggest driver of increased assessments here, not renovation or addition permit filings.
At the big Queen Anne house 25 years ago I built a detached 32 x 40 six car garage, with my 24 x 40 train room above in the gable of the 12/12 pitch roof.
After the inspections I added insulation, HVAC, osb walls, and beadboard ceiling to the train room. Even if the county had known about these improvements it would not have been considered living space because there was no bathroom or running water in the garage, and it was detached from the house.
I agree, I would never make unusual modifications to a house for trains or anything else. It is a resale problem in most cases.
Sheldon
SeeYou190 I have finsihed reading all the replies. Thank you to everyone for sharing your thoughts. I enjoyed all the insight and intelligence that was presented. I was going to post this for "Filosophy Phriday", but I forgot, and started it on Saturday. It has still been a very successful discussion. -Kevin
I have finsihed reading all the replies.
Thank you to everyone for sharing your thoughts. I enjoyed all the insight and intelligence that was presented.
I was going to post this for "Filosophy Phriday", but I forgot, and started it on Saturday. It has still been a very successful discussion.
-Kevin
I would never entertain reworking a house just to accomodate a model railroad. Maybe that makes me less serious about the hobby, so be it I guess. Turning a third car garage into a "finished" room would be as far as I would go in turning space that was designed for one thing into something else....structurally.
I have thought about building a separate garage with a 20 x10 train room above. Or building a house with an upstairs bonus area that I would use as a train room. The "train room in a shed" thread has given me the thought of buying an old mobile home and gutting it for use as a model train room. I would finish a basement. I would make a bedroom a train room. But I would never rework an existing structure to accomodate trains.
I think not adding the second story just for a train room was a good decision.
Throught the USA, property taxes are generally assessed by "finished" squarefootage. Permits are "required", and inspections must be performed, because the assumption is that people "finish" a room by covering up the important stuff, and the important stuff needs looked at prior to being covered up with pretty drywall and trim.
A gray area exists where a garage or basement becomes "finished" but is not deemed to be used as "livable" space. I would assume that if the inspectors saw you add a second story that has stairs up from the house, finished room with HVAC connected to the main system, they would deem it livable space. OTOH, if you built it above the garage with unfinished stairs that led from the garage, even if the room had drywall, outlets, and window HVAC, they might not deem it as livable space and might not tax you on it...call it a workshop. Call it a basement that happens to be above the garage (attic), complete with dehumidifyer, outlets , and a few lights.
"Livable" space is what tends to get taxed.
Check with your local municipality.
I think 11 x 22 is a perfect size for me. It allows for 4 good sized scenes. 12 car trains are long enough for me also.
Speaking of wierd examples. I was once at a bank where they foreclosed on a house where they thought the value of the house relative to the loan outstanding was tight. Came to find out the house had a basement.
That's because the owner had a sleep disorder. He spent hours each night hand digging the center part of his crawl space into a basement.
Guess he snuck that one pass the county permitting/ inspection process. Bank had to get the documents in order, but it all passed.
My compromises somewhat punish myself depriving me of a lot of the fun unfortunately After three years into it you would think I'd have the track laid and trains running but I don't. I've had too many custom bridges to build among other things that need to get done first ideally. That stuff is very time-consuming but I really enjoy building those things so I guess I'm still having fun with the hobby.
I have lived a learning experience from my younger years on my other three layouts. Once I got the track laid most of my time was spent amusing myself running trains and never getting any of the modeling done. The reality is I never finished a single one of those layouts.
So now I'm going about things backwards and waiting until I get the bulk of the modeling projects done before I lay my track and run trains.
Yep, I know I'm a little crazy in the way I think but I always have been that way
TF
Life also is a lot of comprimises. Finding the proverbial middle ground is not always easy or fast. The speed that it happens with a layout also might become a surprise. The important thing is you have it. Now time to start moving forward!
mobilman44 I think you could be very happy with a layout that size, perhaps a dogbone with staging or a convoluted oval with the dreaded duck-under. In any case, ENJOY the thing as best you can!
I think you could be very happy with a layout that size, perhaps a dogbone with staging or a convoluted oval with the dreaded duck-under.
In any case, ENJOY the thing as best you can!
I agree! My room is 19 1/3 x 9 1/2, the layout is a "convoluted oval" My "dreaded duckunder" is semi permanant across the doorway. But, it really isn't dreaded since it clears the floor at 4' 9", an easy duck for 6'1" me. The layout ground elevation is 4' 10" from the floor. I am so used to it I don't even think about it. Ample work space is under the layout.
A 10x 20 has a lot to offer. My layout has hidden staging for six 14 car trains, double headed. Five industries large enough to serve (be served by) whole length trains, or close to it. Two of those have small (250 and 300 foot) ships at dock.
Plus there's a TT and 6 stall roundhouse and 2 stall shop, a decent size boneyard. 2 smaller industries on spurs. 2 businesses not served by rail. All businesses have ample room for vehicles where applicable.
There's a farm on an open rolling hillside big enough to look legit, with 2 dwellings. And the rock face cliffs and hillside that are over staging dwarfs the trains that are visible. I've worked hard to avoid spaghetti bowl, and I think I succeeded. Most everything mentioned is WIP, but established.
One thing i'll mention about the around-the-room layout is that observers can't take it all in at once. Their back is always to about half the layout, so they have take in the 360 view incrementally. 10x20? Plenty of room for HO action! Dan
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut it really went up last year for the new owners because their assessment is now based on the sale price........
Housing prices in this part of southern Ontario, and, in many cases, also for most of Canada, have gone up drastically over the last couple of years. Older homes, not necessarily in good condition, or even ones that are rather unattractive, are subject to bidding wars, and a small house that might have cost $90,000 three or four years ago, is $400- to $600,000 now.
Part of this trend is directly related to the Covid pandemic: many folks that worked at a business or industry that employed clerical workers, kept them employed by allowing them to work "virtually", at home.Those working in nearby Toronto, (Canada's largest city, where one half of an 80 year-old duplex sells for well-over a million dollars) discovered that their money will go a lot further in nearby Hamilton (my hometown), and even further in the Niagara area, where I now live.
Their ability to continue working from home (their new home) after the situation returns to normal, means no more commuting to work. I foresee a lot of empty office space languishing on the market when this is over.
As for assessment around here, I believe that it's mostly based on square footage, although when I had the house finished enough to move in, the building inspector found two "violations": one was an exterior door to what would eventually become a deck, but at the time, had nothing - no deck, no steps. He suggested that he would approve it if the door were sealed until the deck was in place, and I immediately blocked the door by barring it with a screwed-on 2"x4".
His other complaint was that the stairwell opening in the basement was improperly framed, and I argued with him on this point, as I knew that it was done properly (my uncle was a housebuilder, and taught me well). The inspector wanted joist hangers for all of the floor joists that intersected with the 2"x10"s that formed the stairwell, but he never realised, despite me asking him to look, that the stairwell itself was doubled - the joists had been properly nailed through the outer members of the stairwell, and the inner members were then added, effectively hiding the nail heads and strengthening the overall construction. I don't know why he couldn't understand that, but he was adamant that I add the cleats.
I finally agreed, and said I would call him when it was done. I had enough hangers on-hand, so put them on using 2 1/2" nails (if I'd used the 3 1/2" nails that already secured the joists to the outer members, they would have protruded through inner member and into the stairwell opening). All of the floor joists for both levels of the house were on 12" centres, but there was one place were two joists were too close together - not enough width for a hammer. I cut the required number of nails down to just the head and 1/4" of shank, then installed them using a small tack hammer.When the inspector returned, he pronounced the job "well-done", and issued our occupancy permit.
Since that time, the only occasion that the Town visited was to install water meters that could be read without need of entering the basement, and by that time, the basement was divided into rooms - no comments were raised, nor was the assessment, other than the usual increases for total value of the house - I believe that occurrs every 3 or 5 years. The current assessed value is now at about half of what the house would sell for, if we choose to move, and that's based on sales in this area. If I'm not mistaken, those replacing the water meters were not town employees, but rather a contracted company that did the work, so they wouldn't have cared if I'd installed a 30 lane bowling alley and a nine-hole golf course in my basement.
I'm told that a train layout will have a negative effect on the selling price, although when we sold the first house that we owned, the buyer asked if I would consider leaving the layout. Since he had payed well-over the asking price, I left the layout, which was, at that time, mostly a "Plywood Pacific". The only "scenery"was this 2'x2' spot with trees made from twigs...
...with steel wool, covered with ground foam, for the foliage. I didn't leave behind any trains or structures.
Wayne
I traded away a third of my layout space for a den. I had originally planned that 2/3rds of my space would be layout and the other 1/3 would be workshop and staging. My wife pointed out that I might want to have a place to sit, or even a place for her to come and spend some time with me. Seemed like a good idea.
Staging will become a lower deck instead.
Living the dream.
My layout is 10 x 20. While I would like it larger, like you space constraints kept it from being any larger. It does give a decent amount of space for running and since the era I run is from my childhood, the locos that I run are 4 axle, save one SD40-2, so the tighter curve radius isn't an issue for me. Also the rolling stock is shorter as well.
So don't worry, you will be able to get a good running railroad in the space you have.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Here in Illinois, if you improved your property by adding a second story, or a first floor room addition, or a finished basement, for example, you would get reassessed and wind up paying higher property taxes. Rich How would they know if you finished the basement? They wouldn't. Let me tell you an interesting story. My subdivision consists of somewhere between 400 and 500 single family homes. Every time we see one up for sale, it has a finished basement. A few years back, I was considering appealing my reassessment. My basement is unfinished. I was comparing assessments of my home to similar homes on the assessor's list of homes in our subdivision. Only one home had reported a finished basement, apparently by filing for a permit. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Here in Illinois, if you improved your property by adding a second story, or a first floor room addition, or a finished basement, for example, you would get reassessed and wind up paying higher property taxes. Rich How would they know if you finished the basement?
richhotrain Here in Illinois, if you improved your property by adding a second story, or a first floor room addition, or a finished basement, for example, you would get reassessed and wind up paying higher property taxes. Rich
Rich
How would they know if you finished the basement?
They wouldn't. Let me tell you an interesting story. My subdivision consists of somewhere between 400 and 500 single family homes. Every time we see one up for sale, it has a finished basement.
A few years back, I was considering appealing my reassessment. My basement is unfinished. I was comparing assessments of my home to similar homes on the assessor's list of homes in our subdivision. Only one home had reported a finished basement, apparently by filing for a permit.
So now that you bring it up, we appealed the assessment of the Queen Anne shortly after we bought it. They had two fireplaces and a finished basement listed on the assessment - it had none of those things.
At some point some drive by assessor assumed it was old, it had two chimneys, it must have two fireplaces.
Actually the house was not built with any fireplaces, because it was built with central heat in 1901. It had a coal fired boiler for steam radiators, it had a coal fired cook stove, and two coal fired "parlor" stoves as backup heat, but no fireplaces.
Three owners and 25 years before us, the owners then finished about 1/3 of the basement into a club room. That room had actually been removed by the next owner and was long gone when we bouht the house.
We won our appeal and our assessment was lowered, without them even coming to look.
Then of course it went up when we completed the restoration, built the garage and pool, etc.
But it really went up last year for the new owners because their assessment is now based on the sale price........
Kevin, I can certainly understand your situation, having been there 4 times.
My last two layouts (may they rest in peace) were limited to the 11 x 15 1/2 spare room, which was about half of what I really wanted. But the reality was ever present, and I spent a lot of time on the design.
I had a list of "have to have's", and ended up being to realistically (IMO of course) include most all of them in the latest layout. What I had to leave out was a reverse loop, a coal mine industry, and of course a long main line. I did build in a lower level for staging and that was a huge plus. I had 6 tracks, but wish I built it for 2-4 more.
You and I are "lone wolf" guys, and frankly anything much more than 11x22 could eat your lunch maintenance wise. Of course the key is to go slow and test, test, test to minimize future problem areas.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Alton Junction
Track fiddler ATLANTIC CENTRAL Sheldon That is such an excellent question Sheldon and I felt safe behind that kind of sound reasoning for so many years. An excellent question deserves a good answer. For every foolproof scenario there's an exception to every rule. Back when they were converting from the old school meters to digital wireless readers, homeowners would write down the usage numbers on every months water and gas bill maually. They were asking homeowners to comply to let a HVAC technician into their house to install these new digital meters. I and other neighbors refused to let them in which is your constitutional right that you don't have to let someone into your house. I wasn't the only Pea in the Pod that smelt a rat. That worked for quite a while until court papers started arriving in the mail. A very wealthy customer of mine advised me that I could fight this and win but it would cost my pocketbook a pretty penny. Or I had the option to hire my own technicians on my own dime which I would still have to do if I didn't let the city's people in anyway. After those digital wireless meters were installed it was interesting how everyone who had finished basements had their taxes go up significantly enough to where you knew where it came from on your next years tax assessment. It was also interesting how the water and gas bills went up significantly as well after you had no idea where the cutoff was with the numbers of usage anymore. TF
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Sheldon
Are you talking about water meters?
We don't have one, we have our own onsite well and septic out here in the country with the dairy cows and the corn fields.
We do have natural gas, but that meter and the electric meter are outdoors.
But I get what you are saying.
I had originally planned a larger around the wall layout, that used the 11' x 22' south half of our basement, but I compromised and built my current layout that uses less than half of that space, approx. 11' x 8', as this will not be our finall retirement home. Too many stairs.
I'm glad I did, as I was able to finish the layout in a about 3 years, and it provides all the train operations that I wanted.
We had the new electric meter installed. Our provider of gas and electric did the work, as it's up grading their equipment. It was all done on the outside, at the meter socket, no one needed to come in house, and the guy was there for less than 5 minutes, with no interuptions. I wish I would've been went and watched. I expected to have to set the clocks on some of the appliances, but I had to do nothing.
Our water meter was changed to digital as well, wich required a village employee to be in our basement.
I would have no problem with Sheldon's way of thinking. Sort of what I'm doing at our place in the WI north woods.
Mike.
My You Tube
My under construction layout is quite a bit smaller than what I had first planned. The original design was a 10' x 22' folded dogbone with a walk in. My current layout is a 5'4" x 12' double track oval with an eventual 2' x 9' yard. Reach in is not an issue because almost all of the track is less than 30" from the fascia.
The original plan became impossible as my back deteriorated so I gave up on the idea of having my own layout for several years. Eventually I decided that any layout would be better than no layout so I came up with the oval plan. It has lots of operating features, and perhaps most important (as all of you already know) it tilts so I don't have to crawl under it.
Medical issues have delayed work on the layout but I should be back at it soon.
Permits are not required for house repairs here, but any changes or additions that involve structural work do. Same for decks that are attached to the house.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
So, to Kevins original topic here.
Even those of us with larger spaces willing and able to build larger layouts make compromises because of reality.
I know to some this will sound silly, but:
I did not have enough room to meet my other goals and have 48" radius as my minimum on the mainline, so 36" it is. That goal might have fostered more interest in scale length passenger cars, which is another reality. I am too invested time and money wise into the selectively compressed passenger cars I have now, and its a bunch of them.
Because I know I can build benchwork quickly an effectively, benchwork square footage is not a factor in my mind.
But I did work to limit the number of turnouts, and to balance my desire for deep scenery with reasonably good access to all trackage.
While it may or may not be apparent when viewing the plan, once you get away from the freight yard/urban area of my new layout, much the rest is is just the double track mainline running thru some large deep scenes.
Again the reality of not adding unnecessary complexity.
When we were house shopping two years ago, I walked away from several houses with train spaces twice the size I have now. The house above was too big, and I knew I did not need or want to build a layout that big.
Even the new layout plan is only as big as it is bcause of deep scenes and 36" radius curves. Compromise some of that and you could do it in 1000 sq ft or less.
richhotrain SeeYou190 If I were to add a second story, or an under-truss addition to the main floor, that could trigger a full reassessment and increase my property taxes. That's pretty typical, it seems to me. Here in Illinois, if you improved your property by adding a second story, or a first floor room addition, or a finished basement, for example, you would get reassessed and wind up paying higher property taxes. Rich
SeeYou190 If I were to add a second story, or an under-truss addition to the main floor, that could trigger a full reassessment and increase my property taxes.
If I were to add a second story, or an under-truss addition to the main floor, that could trigger a full reassessment and increase my property taxes.
That's pretty typical, it seems to me. Here in Illinois, if you improved your property by adding a second story, or a first floor room addition, or a finished basement, for example, you would get reassessed and wind up paying higher property taxes.
Of course the was rhetorical, but around here lots of interior remodeling goes on without permits, and honestly, the inspection department is happy to turn their head to most of it.
They don't have the staff or the budget to handle it all. And unless you are completely gutting the whole house at once, nobody is likely to turn you in or pay any attention.
But an addition is clearly another situation.......
AND, the way the codes are written here, "repairs" don't require permits.
And I mean even serious repairs.
Before we sold the Queen Anne, the porch needed some work. We took up and replaced the floor, replaced the 20 columns that hold it up, reworked the drip endge on the roof and repaired the built in gutter system, removed and reinstalled the railings.
That work legally did not require a permit in our county.
I can take apart anything that is worn, damaged, deteriorated or otherwise failing and replace it in kind and that is a repair - no permits - indoords or outdoors.
You can replace windows, doors, siding, roofing, HVAC equipment without permits.
Take your kitchen or bath apart, put it back the same with new stuff - that's a repair.
So what are they going to do? Document the whole interior of every house and follow you home every time you go to Home Depot?
Until you take out a permit, or there compelling probable cause, they can't come in your house. The tax assessor cannot come in your house, at least not in this state.
He goes by the permit records and what he can see from the street, and his market info.
I had the house before I had the wife and where I have the layout is a space where the area could be doubled quite easily with the removal of a wall which was the plan. Many things developed in a short period of time that changed the plans so today my layout is in a 15' x 24' space and is about half the size I had envisioned but all things being equal I now feel I would not want anything larger.
The space I have has a large opening, a large window, three doors, and a fireplace to deal with and it took some head-scratching to come up with a track plan that could accommodate the geography of the room.
It works really well for all I want in a layout.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
SeeYou190t limits how much property taxes can be raised each year so residents do not get "taxed-out" of their property.
Kevin, that's life, isn't it? It happens in marriage, in all friendships (but, I repeat myself...), in business, at parties...anywhere people meet and try to come to terms with each other over a common goal. In this case, you have a very excellent life-long friend whom you value tremendously, and whom you wish to keep contented. It would be my aim as well. If that means giving in and compromising, so be it. You'll be richly rewarded even if just in knowing you were able to give in and be kind. I have done this, and you know you must as well. So, good for you there.
As far as the givens and druthers, I always manage to get what I want, although actually crafting a decent version of it is often a big challenge for me. There are surprises, some of them unpleasant. Like the time I ran my Trix GG1 through Bob Hollowel's nice truss double-track bridge and found the pantograph snagged, wheels spinning and grinding, on a brace at the upper corner of the aperture at the end of the truss. I had to cut them off. But, I got my generous curves, a must for me, and I got my mountainous terrain with water features, and so on.
Funny thing is, I have my wife to thank for the space. While I drove my father down to Indio from Vancouver Island, she hired our contractor to partition the garage and build me a train room. It was a surpise. It was very generous, too, because I now have a 9X18 space with the folded loop plan, this time double-tracked.
I think you're doing marvellously.
I don't know what is the "right size" for a layout. 11' x 22' sounds "right". To use Spike's terminology, 34' x 22' L-shape seems "righter".
At one time, I thought that my 42' x 25' P-shaped layout was "rightest" for me. Now, I think that it is too large. I may go to something smaller.
To paraphrase a former Supreme Court Justice, I cannot define a "right sized" layout, but I know it when I see it.
The most important thing for me would have been including everything on your ‘must have list’!When I designed my layout I had a double crossover high on my list and I was very upset when I couldn’t find a code 83 double crossover that would pass my Rivarossi Cab Forward with large flanges, my favorite locomotive and it was a no go.I went with a single crossover unhappily for many years until I built my own double crossover, now I’m very happy with my layout. It has everything that was on my 'must have list'.Mel Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
csxnsSo if you don't update the house the tax goes up is that what you are saying?
Sorry for being misleading/unclear.
Florida has the "Save Our Homes" (AKA Homestead Exemption) rule that limits how much property taxes can be raised each year so residents do not get "taxed-out" of their property.
If I were to add a second story, or an under-truss addition to the main floor, that could trigger a full reassessment and increase my property taxes. Since I do not want to go to back to work, this is a concern.
Working within the current floor space under HVAC and truss will not remove SOH protection.
Given the skyrocketing house values right now, a full re-assessment outside SOH exemptions could increase the taxable value of my house by $200,000.00 or more.
SeeYou190 This would also raise our tax responsibility,
My layout room will be 11 by 22. That is reality.
The original plan was to add a 34 by 22 L shaped room above the garage and master bedroom to be the home of the new layout. I had the money, but then the house would not have been updated, and my wife would not have the bedroom, bathroom, and kitchen she wanted. This would also raise our tax responsibility, so this plan was dropped for a revised one.
In all reality, 11 by 22 is probably about the right size for a layout that is to be operated by myself and built to the detail I want in the time I have left.
This came with compromises. Maximum train length can only be 12 cars. Minimum radius was cut drastically. All areas of open running are gone.
The upside is that I have found ways to include EVERY single feature that was on my "Must-Have" list. Also, I avoided all structural modifications to the house and do not need any changes to the existing HVAC system.
In the end, I have become comfortable with the compromises I made to the final layout plan, and expect to be happy with the final layout. I am certain as time goes by, and the layout gets built, this will be proven.