You will want to take them apart and look at the finish inside the 'journal box' recesses. My experience with PSC trucks is very old, but as I recall they drilled these with a fairly coarse surface finish and didn't subsequently lap or finish the cones. I think in the kits you were lucky to find they'd dimpled the sideframe castings as a kind of pilot for you to drill and finish yourself.
I believe they are at 60 degrees which should simplify finding (or making) tools to get a better finish in these cones. I suspect there are both cutters (like the truck tuners for plastic sideframes) and laps available. You might get success with wooden laps and a sequence of finer abrasives as for track gleaming, finished off with burnishing; it might be that simply beveling the end of a paper Q-tip shaft or lollipop stick, chucking in a drill or Dremel (or working by hand), and some repeated dipping in Brasso would get you to a good enough finish in there. Be sure to get rid of all trace of abrasive when done with a given grit, which takes much longer with Brasso than you think.
Then try the tiny bit of light grease, and run the trucks in for a while, then clean and relubricate.
The trucks came assembled so I did not have them apart but there is room for the axle to slide back and forth in the sideframes
Lone Geep
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LastspikemikeWhen the axles were out did you take a good look at the cone shaped sockets in the trucks? Any irregularities there would make a big difference to drag.
As discussed in other threads, these trucks shouldn't be 'point guiding' -- in other words the needle points don't sit in little brass 'cups' at the very tips of the cones machined in the sideframe. (I thought that's how they were best supposed to work for a long time, but was taught that was not so.) You might expect to find easier running if a slight additional lateral clearance is provided, so the very end of the conical point rides on the highest part of the cone face in the truck -- remember that they are machined to two different angles, with the axle point being about 10 degrees more acute or 'sharper' than the recess, so the actual zone of contact is very small. This is the part of the 'bearing' that needs to be lubricated. In practice, the axle will shift and 'walk' a little, so the area is a bit greater, and there may be some area for hydrodynamic film buildup once the axle gets up a bit of rotational speed, so a little more lubricant is good -- but it ain't a lot.
My initial thought would be a TINY amount of Labelle 106 or 102, perhaps gently applied to the axle ends for metering rather than placed into the sideframe cups.
Has anyone used one of the nanodiamond lubes in a metal sideframe? I'm of two minds about the effect these would have in this type of highly-point-loaded setup...
emdmike A good basic oiling of the axle ends tends to greatly improve the rolling of brass trucks. Many do not have needle point axle engines, and thus rely on a tiny drop of oil on the axle ends to roll easier. Mike the Aspie
A good basic oiling of the axle ends tends to greatly improve the rolling of brass trucks. Many do not have needle point axle engines, and thus rely on a tiny drop of oil on the axle ends to roll easier. Mike the Aspie
I did have a look and the axle ends are needle point. What oil would you suggest?
Expect considerably more resistance from the small ball bearings than from a properly tuned needle-point axle.
That's relatively speaking, of course. They will 'glide' rather than roll freely.
If you look at the construction of these very small bearings and then what is necessary to make the wheels and the axle fit so the rotation is concentric, you can appreciate some of the sources of additional resistance. There is a reason we still use jewels instead of 'nano' rolling-element bearings in watchwork, but find advantages for ball bearings as we get into clock sizes and stresses.
OvermodYes, the wheels are free to rotate if the axle ends are fixed.
I should have been more clear, obviously they will rotate in a fixed axle.
My question is if they will perform similar to regular trucks, or is there more resistance when relying on the ball bearings?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Yes, the wheels are free to rotate if the axle ends are fixed.
7j43kI see Other Ed hasn't responded yet, so I'll fill you in. Or, rather, Intermountain will; just check out this page: <URL> part numbers 40058 and 40059.
OK, they say the wheels rotate independently of axle rotation.
Will these work reliably if the axles will not turn at all?
I have some ancient Tenshodo very short streamlined passenger cars that are gorgeous, but the trucks roll awful. All replacement axles lock up in the trucks.
If these will work like that, I think this could be the ticket.
Thanks for the replies and sorry for taking to long to get back.
The trucks came assembled and painted and I paid $45 CDN a pair so throwing them out isn't an option. I got them because they have the 7' wheel base and the only readily avaible match for the prototypes. Maybe in the future I will try to dissassemble them and see what the axle ends are.
SeeYou190 gmpullman In this case I have replaced the wheelsets with Intermountain Ball Bearing wheels. Whoa whoa whoa! What are these things? Do the wheel rotate on ball bearings if the axle points are held rigid? If so, I had no idea anything like this even existed. These could be a solution to my Tenshodo passenger car truck problem. -Kevin
gmpullman In this case I have replaced the wheelsets with Intermountain Ball Bearing wheels.
Whoa whoa whoa! What are these things?
Do the wheel rotate on ball bearings if the axle points are held rigid?
If so, I had no idea anything like this even existed. These could be a solution to my Tenshodo passenger car truck problem.
I see Other Ed hasn't responded yet, so I'll fill you in. Or, rather, Intermountain will; just check out this page:
https://www.intermountain-railway.com/wheels.htm
part numbers 40058 and 40059.
Ed
SeeYou190Do the wheel rotate on ball bearings if the axle points are held rigid?
There have been very small ball bearings available in clockmaking for quite some time. If you acknowledge highly-unprototypical wheel back detailing it is easy to make wheelsets with these bearings plus proper insulation that can be pressed on any axle -- needle-pointed or otherwise.
You would continue to tune a coned-bearing truck so the needle ends "rotate" freely, as there is some drag from the small bearings even run dry, and the lateral restoring characteristics of pointed-axle trucks should be preserved.
In my opinion it makes better sense in HO to put the bearings in the wheels than more 'prototypically' drill out or modify the journal boxes to fit regular axle ends.
I distinctly remember a 'ball bearing' approach that had a tapered outer race bearing on a conical shaft -- IIRC in ultracentrifuge step bearings. For about 12ms I considered this as a rolling-element approach for model bearings, then started to recognize all the obvious troubles...
gmpullmanIn this case I have replaced the wheelsets with Intermountain Ball Bearing wheels.
I find a wide disparity in the brass trucks supplied with many models. Most are pretty crude and have very shallow relief. Usually there's at least some degree of "equalization" bit this also varies between very stiff to extremely sloppy.
Trucks_Brass by Edmund, on Flickr
The truck on the left is practically a model in itself while the one on the right leaves a bit to be desired.
I agree with Kevin that when practical, replace them with a Kadee, or Walthers equivalent.
This passenger car is getting Walthers trucks. Fortunately, Walthers offers several styles of PRR passenger trucks.
PRR_POC70Rb by Edmund, on Flickr
In this instance I'm using a Rapido truck to replace the rather crude truck supplied by Soho:
N-H_Soho-trucks by Edmund, on Flickr
There's nearly always some modification needed. In the above case I needed to build an entirely new center sill:
N-H_Hill-obs-centersill by Edmund, on Flickr
Some of my models simply do not have an option for replacement. In this case I have replaced the wheelsets with Intermountain Ball Bearing wheels.
Trucks_Brass-Intermountain1 by Edmund, on Flickr
Trucks_Brass-Intermountain by Edmund, on Flickr
These have worked out pretty well.
As Mike points out you have to do some detective work. I found a car that had very flimsy, stamped truck bolsters. Possibly in shipping or somehow someone had pressed down on the top of the car but the bolsters were deformed making the sideframes splay outward at the bottom. A little delicate realignment and some stiffeners soldered to the bolster, the kingpin hole really weakened them, and they improved considerably in their rolling and tracking ability.
Good Luck, Ed
First thing you do is get a piece of plate glass. That's the cheap route. Machinists use fancier metal tables, etc. Set the truck on the glass. Take a sheet of paper and try to slide it under each of the wheels. If all four resist, that's good. Any wheel that lets the paper slide right under, it's sitting high. In the worst cases, it's easy to feel the truck rocking under your fingers, but this method ewill detect lesser, but still problematic issues with the truck being vertically aligned.
Next, look down from above. Are the axles square? Or does it look "crabbed"? This will tell you how well it's aligned horizontally.
If you need to correct anything, don't be afraid to lay hands on the truck and gently (sometimes less gently) you twist it to align things more properly, retesting as needed to verify correction.
I've got a bunch of PSC trucks, among many other brass ones. Until you're sure they're square first, you're just guessing about what the most significant issues might be (unless they're obviously squealing from lack of lube.)
After they are square, then check the bearings, the needle point or other axle end and the conical "cup" on the sideframe it fits into. Many times with older equipment, trucks and the wheels in them get swapped around. In the past, people often didn't pay enough attention to axle length. Too loose or too tight can make a big difference.
Sometimes the metal has a burr or other imperfection in it that "The Tool" can help with, although you may want to get one for use on plastic only if you do use it on metal.
Yes, we're pretty spoiled now on truck performance. However, bad some brass trucks may be, they can generally be improved on. Make sure any soldered joint - like bolster to both sideframes - is well done before horsing them around too much or you may have to reassemble, which is sometimes the only solution if you find something well out of alignment. Avoid it if possible, as that can be a challenge if it's your first time - and sometimes the 50th time.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Tichy has nylon bearing inserts to improve brass trucks. #3059 48 pieces for $3.50.
These might work if there is room in your trucks to drill a hole for them .
Mark Vinski
All my brass locomotive tenders get plastic trucks with metal wheels for electrical pickup. I do not use the brass trucks. Those get sold at the annual local train show.
All my brass freight cars get Kadee trucks and wheels. The brass trucks that come with these get sold off as well.
Sorry, in my experience brass trucks just do not perform well.
Brass tank car, Kadee trucks!
I built a pair of "all brass" PSC Commonwealth tender trucks. The axles were blunt end (cylindrical). I thought they rolled well. I never oiled them, as they were for a project I didn't get to. So they're in a box in a box in a box in a garage.
All hole spotting and drilling (axle bearings and bolster mounting tabs) was done in a milling machine. I believe that could explain their good rolling qualities. Note, also, that they were never actually used in service. So perhaps my opinion would have changed.
I chose to build the PSC trucks as they were/are much more beautiful than the trucks they would replace AND they were, at least at the time, the only other choice.
I like the Athearn express trucks. Walthers also makes some. I'd likely just toss the brass trucks and use these. However. If the PSC trucks were the only accurate ones.........
I tried some PSC Buckeye trucks on my SP oil tenders, while looking great mechanically they don’t do well.My first attempt was their kit version and I thought it was me doing the assembly. Next I bought an assembled pair from PSC, they weren’t much better.Both pair ended up in a parts drawer looking great but not usable.Mel Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Were the trucks kits, or did they come ready-to-use? As far as I'm aware, even if they're already assembled, they'll still need to be painted.PSC offers a variety of wheelsets, some with blunt ends, and some with tapered ends, and ones with flush ends. They also have ball-bearing wheelsets with pointed axle ends.
You could try lubricating the axles' ends, using either light oil or graphite.
Another option, depending on the sideplay (or lack thereof) of the wheelsets, might be to disassemble the trucks and put shims (of appropriate thickness) between the truck bolsters and the sidefames, which should allow better rolling if lack of sideplay is the culprit.Hopefully, others may chime-in with other suggestions.
I have a number of express cars, too, but use Athearn's version of an express truck...
This one is a modified Athearn express reefer, and it came with the trucks shown - plastic sideframes and wheels, with metal axles...pretty free-rolling...
(Click on the pictures to get a larger image)
...this one was an Athearn wood and steel reefer, but I replaced the steel ends with wood (plastic), and removed the roof and its ice-bunker hatches, replacing it with a scratchbuilt roof. I use it as an insulated express car...
...this one was, I believe, an offering from Horizon when they merged Athearn and MDC. It was advertised as a milk car, supposedly with interior tanks, but I run mine as another insulated express car for merchandise. The trucks are somewhat different from the Athearn ones shown on the other cars....
...I've thrown this one in simply because I've always liked Train Miniature's offerings, and except for the paint and lettering (and the Athearn express trucks), it's pretty-much "stock"...
Wayne
I recently purchased some express car trucks from PSC for the express reefer kits that I have built. the only issue I have with them is that they arent very free rolling. Is there a way to improve them?