Very cool engine with the orange sunburst. Chris Denny of The Locomotive Exchange was one of those experts who is now deceased. He swore that Rio Grande actually had some L-105 Challengers with the orange sunburst, but it's usually depicted as silver. The dark green faded...
Certainly some very odd takes on the Baldwin green roaming around ........
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnxrJNiESp0KgekFbHCX9PtBXWCSBQ?e=fnZ6px
I've been through it before on other road's engines...Got to question "experts" who are now gone.
Lots of conflicting information out there.
We are now 60 years too late...the people who truly knew all about steam power are gone...even my favorite authors who were sticklers for accuracy like William Kratville...I'm not arguing that the "typical" Missabe paint is a grey by the 1950's, but I'm trying to understand what they looked like when new? Did MTH get it right? Or is it a just plausible wish as discussed in one of MTH's advertisements I just found?...At least one website says they were delivered in green when new.
So I'm curious as to did DM&IR merely repaint boilers in grey, figuring it went well with dirt and soot? Maybe that was a simple pragmatic choice.
I've been through the "discussion" before, after getting interested in a Texas & Pacific 4-8-2, and the T&P fans differ quite widely in their interpretations of boiler color, also. Some of the really high end models (I had one, which was amazing) are very sharp looking indeed...but people still argue about the correct colors for T&P. I am left not really knowing what was "real" and what wasn't.
John
PRR8259Here is an interesting discussion about "Baldwin Locomotive Green"
I am tempted to send you over to RyPN to read the long, long, long thread about prototype colors in various railroad and automotive uses. He really gets the bit in his teeth... or is it the bone? If I could in fact get on RyPN I'd ask him about the Russia iron boilers and step back for the firehose ...
Here is an interesting discussion about "Baldwin Locomotive Green" and apparently, in the color images (link in second post on the last page) there were actually two shades, a lighter green and a dark olive green. It also was "close to" Pullman Green according to some of the respondents who were trying to match paint.
The PRR Green is truly a darker shade.
Baldwin green paint scheme - The Home Machinist! (chaski.org)
PRR8259Here's an interesting photo of a Rio Grande "Dark Green" cousin "twice removed" of the yellowstone.
The traditional Baldwin green for a long time was a kind of olive color (I think the switcher at Steamtown was exhaustively researched to get the color right) but I wouldn't be surprised to see DGLE as a 'stock' color later. The green in DGLE is very apparent when new. Keep in mind that PRR used the green above the running boards, and plain engine black below, and schmutz rapidly veiled the color, so it matters where and when you see it.
Here's an interesting photo of a Rio Grande "Dark Green" cousin "twice removed" of the yellowstone. (Twice removed because Rio Grande L-131/L-132 scaled up to WP 251/257 class, which with an all weather cab, 4 wheel trailing truck, and a second big fat sand dome becomes Missabe Yellowstone):
HO Brass Train PSC D&RGW 2-8-8-2 PSC-17532-2 Precision Scale Co. (brasstrains.com)
TF--Thanks, but I'm unable to see a single photo link there, perhaps a browser issue on my end.
PRR Dark Green Locomotive Enamel (DGLE)--Bowser had experts on that paint color--it is more commonly known as Brunswick Green. Indoors the PRR green under fluorescent lighting actually can appear to be dark grey. I used to take customers outside Bowser's store to prove to them in the real sunlight that Bowser's engines were actually dark green and not black. Only then did they believe us! That was how we used to settle arguments 30 years ago...
I live near Enola Yard; I have met many people who swear the PRR engines were "only ever black" with lots of grey dirt. However, they were just wrong. The PRR hysterical society has proof that they were actually dark green.
I don't believe that is the green used on Rio Grande and other western or midwestern steam power. The PRR "Brunswick Green" is far too dark.
The other photos in links provided (except the nice model) seem to be inconclusive, but having seen the few images of DRGW green steam, and NP/SP&S green steam, I swear the one image of 224 is in fact a green engine starting to weather in the firebox area. Look at the grey cinders and then look at the boiler. I do not know how anyone can realistically call that grey. I have been trying to find that photo online to see where it might have come from but without success.
I also have a photographer friend who knows a lot more than I do about color shift; I can ask him when I see him and show him the image.
P.S. I am not on any social media whatsoever, anymore. My political views are clearly not welcome and I refuse to deal with any of them. (I was not kicked off, but my parents taught me to think for myself, which seems to make me a minority).
Thanks for that link Trackfiddler.
John,
Here's another one that looks to be green given the grey of the conveyor at the rear of the scene looks right as do the other colours.
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnxrJNiESp0Kgeh-nFCQy-BrvywN9Q?e=eH2WiU
And if you like the green boilered articulates this (which you've likely seen) is a simiar colour from the same manufacturer - Baldwin. This looks pretty similar to the colour in the pics I have linked. I love those L-105s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlfbCIBJWvs
I agree with Overmod that these model colours will be guaged. I'm not sure there is a specification in existence. If you look at the actual Baldwin order books which can be downloaded as pdfs (they only go to up to 1936 unfortunately so we can't eyeball the one for the M3s) the paint is only specified as PRR dark green or whatever not a code or anything. I suspect the PRR etc had a formula for the colour which they supplied particularily when you look at the records and discover that often the locomotive was Baldwin and the tender homegrown and they wouldn't be happy with much of a missmatch. Perhaps the paint was supplied by those roads to avoid this?
Here's a boatload of info and photos I thought might be found interesting.
https://www.missabe.com/rosters
TF
PRR8259This image proves that to be completely false.
NOTE: There is another thread specifically discussing the gray-green color that would be called 'Russia Iron'. This would NOT be the green that was apparently on some of these Yellowstones when delivered in wartime. It would also very likely be mixed to resemble someone's memory of the color of actual Russia sheet iron... not as an exact replication of what was a very variable product.
What has yet to be determined -- and I suspect it can, in fact, be determined -- is the actual DM&IR paint code used for the 'gray' boiler over the years. This is likely something that the Missabe historical society would know... but their Garbely web site has no way to reach them to ask... other than via snail mail!
I don't 'do' Facepalm, where they apparently have their major social presence, so one of you that does might ask over there. I don't do NiTwitter either; the link is
https://mobile.twitter.com/MissabeRHistSoc
in case anyone cares to ask one of the 3 subscribers there to get this ball rolling...
PRR8259I too cannot post pictures here; I do not pay to store photos online anywhere.
You don't have to pay to store photo's online. Imgur will let you do it for free. I've been using it for a few years now.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Flying Scotsman--
Oh thank you so much! That's a beautiful green yellowstone for sure!
Some DM&IR fans have been saying that they were ONLY ever grey.
This image proves that to be completely false.
Color photos of green boilered steamers on most roads except Great Northern are very difficult to find. I searched online and could not find any DM&IR ones, and none in the one book I have--but you found it!
You totally made my day, and it appears MTH got the color very close indeed.
P.S. For example, others have told me that only two color photos of Rio Grande articulateds with definitely green boilers have ever been published. The one I remember seeing most often is of an older articulated in service as a rear end helper. In most images the engines are dirty which made it difficult to see or discern.
Thanks John,
Oddly enough I was looking at that link yesterday.
I agree re the colour correctness of early film but this picture if you look at the greens in the grass they seem accurate and I'd say that's an M-3 with a green boiler.
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnxrJNiESp0Kgeh2VwJDjz3T3EFaeg?e=hlvoi3
Here is a Yellowstone website that specifically states the DM&IR yellowstones as delivered had dark green boiler and smokebox jacketing, and NOT the grey as was common during the 1950's on many DM&IR steam locomotives.
http://rgusrail.com/mndmir225.html
It's a big web page, and you have to use the bottom arrows to scroll about half way across to read the paragraph about the boiler jacketing color.
Being delivered during WWII, when photography of trains or anything else was strongly discouraged, and color film was in its infancy, I have yet to find any images that truly reflect the dark green color, but perhaps they will turn up.
Respectfully submitted--
John Mock
Hi John,
I do agree that the Rio Grande 2-8-8-2s sell like hot cakes on brasstrains and i think they'd do really well released as you say in diecast.
You know it was a Rio Grande articulated locomotive that got me going down the American route.
Here's a link to how that happened.
That's definitely pride of the fleet.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/283071.aspx
Good morning Jonathan--
It seems they did not make very many.
Some HO dealers had stopped selling MTH, and it appears very few have them in stock, or else they already sold them.
Perhaps under a different name, they might do better in sales.
My logic was, again: there will always be Big Boys. Everybody keeps making them in plastic, diecast, and brass. There will not always be yellowstones. That helped to make it an attractive purchase as something different. My son and I are also suckers for those engines that had the green boilers (though mainly we are dieselized now).
There ARE legions of Rio Grande and WP fans out there who might buy their articulateds if they were available in diecast (not merely the UP Challenger lettered for Rio Grande--factually correct--but factually hated by Rio Grande and many Rio Grande fans. It was designed to run fast across the open spaces of Wyoming, and not to be a mountain mauler like other Rio Grande engines that had much higher tractive effort).
Morning John,
I have just checked in daylight and definately grey. I hadn't seen the MTH catalogue but in that for sure it's a shade of green. Those illustrations are the very reason I put this side-by-side up in the first place. Their products look to me like they are plastic kits badly painted and are just NOT what the thing that lands on your layout looks like at all.
I have that DVD I must look it out and when I scanned all my old photographs years ago the one that I could not lay my hands on was one of me in the driving seat of the 227 in Duluth, grinning like a cheshire cat. That was 1990. I'd be grinning like a cheshire cat if my hair were that colour again
Of those engines you've listed I agree they seem like a distant chance and ST will be a while coming out with a DM&IR yellowstone when the last release the company they just bought was that before they slammed the door - could be wrong. I will be interested to see how long it takes to run the stock down.
Cheers,
Jonathan
The MTH catalogue photos for this run showed a distinctly more blue-green color, more like what Rio Grande did use on their articulateds, for sure. That was what originally hooked me.
I am happy enough with the color under fluorescent basement lighting...
I doubt I'll ever see a diecast Rio Grande L-131, or L-132, or the Western Pacific 251/257 class 2-8-8-2's...or the NP Z-5 2-8-8-4. I could hope for someday, but am glad to get DM&IR yellowstones. The very first video my older son ever watched was the DM&IR Yellowstones Giants of Steam, and he would sit there completely enthralled...now he's in college and younger brother and I each have one.
Yes, there is no way ST will be able to offer this beastie for $600 MSRP if they even rerun it at all.
Glad I got mine. I was becoming concerned when February got here and they did not...(that was when they were "due").
TheFlyingScotsman PRR8259 It's a shroud covering the stoker mechanism from tender to firebox. In real life it of course helped to close the cab to severe winter weather. For models that some are going to run on 24" radius curves, far far less than would be recommended for a big dollar brass articulated loaded down with details, it is good the shroud was left off. It would only cause problems on curves if it was there, and only until it broke, which might not take long. If in sunlight, the paint looks grey, but in my basement next to grey covered hoppers under fluorescent light, it appears to be a light green or a greenish-grey. The limited prototype information I've been able to read indicates that they were delivered in a greenish-grey color. The "Russian Iron" paint that so many railroads used was meant to evoke the look of real hand-hamered Russian Iron, which was used into the early years of the 20th Century on some steam boilers. After that time, many railroads chose to use "Russian Iron" paint to achieve the same look (most notably Rio Grande, Texas & Pacific, Great Northern and NP). However, the color varied from road to road and shop to shop. Sometimes it is blue, sometimes blue-green, sometimes green, and sometimes greenish-grey, and anywhere in between. The surviving yellowstones stuffed and mounted appear to be in grey, but I'm not sure that is correct to the original jacket paint color? John All I can add on the colour is it is for sure grey in sunlight, yes, as are the preserved ones I have seen in the flesh. Certainly it is the same as the PSC but the D&RGW appear to be a bit greenish. Either way it makes a very nice change from solid black and what colour pics I have seen in service look to be grey to my eyes but those old pics have funny hues at times.
PRR8259 It's a shroud covering the stoker mechanism from tender to firebox. In real life it of course helped to close the cab to severe winter weather. For models that some are going to run on 24" radius curves, far far less than would be recommended for a big dollar brass articulated loaded down with details, it is good the shroud was left off. It would only cause problems on curves if it was there, and only until it broke, which might not take long. If in sunlight, the paint looks grey, but in my basement next to grey covered hoppers under fluorescent light, it appears to be a light green or a greenish-grey. The limited prototype information I've been able to read indicates that they were delivered in a greenish-grey color. The "Russian Iron" paint that so many railroads used was meant to evoke the look of real hand-hamered Russian Iron, which was used into the early years of the 20th Century on some steam boilers. After that time, many railroads chose to use "Russian Iron" paint to achieve the same look (most notably Rio Grande, Texas & Pacific, Great Northern and NP). However, the color varied from road to road and shop to shop. Sometimes it is blue, sometimes blue-green, sometimes green, and sometimes greenish-grey, and anywhere in between. The surviving yellowstones stuffed and mounted appear to be in grey, but I'm not sure that is correct to the original jacket paint color? John
It's a shroud covering the stoker mechanism from tender to firebox. In real life it of course helped to close the cab to severe winter weather.
For models that some are going to run on 24" radius curves, far far less than would be recommended for a big dollar brass articulated loaded down with details, it is good the shroud was left off. It would only cause problems on curves if it was there, and only until it broke, which might not take long.
If in sunlight, the paint looks grey, but in my basement next to grey covered hoppers under fluorescent light, it appears to be a light green or a greenish-grey. The limited prototype information I've been able to read indicates that they were delivered in a greenish-grey color.
The "Russian Iron" paint that so many railroads used was meant to evoke the look of real hand-hamered Russian Iron, which was used into the early years of the 20th Century on some steam boilers. After that time, many railroads chose to use "Russian Iron" paint to achieve the same look (most notably Rio Grande, Texas & Pacific, Great Northern and NP). However, the color varied from road to road and shop to shop.
Sometimes it is blue, sometimes blue-green, sometimes green, and sometimes greenish-grey, and anywhere in between. The surviving yellowstones stuffed and mounted appear to be in grey, but I'm not sure that is correct to the original jacket paint color?
All I can add on the colour is it is for sure grey in sunlight, yes, as are the preserved ones I have seen in the flesh. Certainly it is the same as the PSC but the D&RGW appear to be a bit greenish. Either way it makes a very nice change from solid black and what colour pics I have seen in service look to be grey to my eyes but those old pics have funny hues at times.
PRR8259 Yes, it seems like they took an all or nothing approach to some of their steam models. Some, like the UP 4-12-2 they took very far but left a couple key things off: steps up to running board on left side, and incorrect front sand dome, or rather a dome that sorta seems to match engine 9000 at the end of its career, but appears different from all others, or is "closer" to the rebuilt 4-10-2 sand dome? (never quite figured that out). There is a noticeable shortcut on the 2-8-8-4: the lack of the shroud from tender to the opening in the back of the cab. However, on brass models this is a delicate assembly, easily damaged, can cause derailments if spring tension isn't right, and for HO operation on less than 36" radius curves, I am frankly GLAD they left that detail off the model, as it would only serve to cause problems. Been there and done that. Any other compromises appear to be very small. Overall it really looks good. There is no doubt which engine it represents.
Yes, it seems like they took an all or nothing approach to some of their steam models.
Some, like the UP 4-12-2 they took very far but left a couple key things off: steps up to running board on left side, and incorrect front sand dome, or rather a dome that sorta seems to match engine 9000 at the end of its career, but appears different from all others, or is "closer" to the rebuilt 4-10-2 sand dome? (never quite figured that out).
There is a noticeable shortcut on the 2-8-8-4: the lack of the shroud from tender to the opening in the back of the cab. However, on brass models this is a delicate assembly, easily damaged, can cause derailments if spring tension isn't right, and for HO operation on less than 36" radius curves, I am frankly GLAD they left that detail off the model, as it would only serve to cause problems. Been there and done that.
Any other compromises appear to be very small. Overall it really looks good. There is no doubt which engine it represents.
You are absolutly right about the tender / cab shroud in HO. Generally too I find that they are, to be operational, just too distantly coupled to look good. I am pondering some intermediate solution I can cobble together.
I also saw that someone snapped one of these up at brasstrains.com for 1,100 ish at the time I had this on backorder at Trainworld and it did make me think that perhaps this run had fallen foul of the pandemic or something so I was delighted when i go the email to say they'd been delivered and those guys were kind enough to hold their lower price. As someone from the UK I can't speak too highly of the shipping via UPS that they do 3 days to the door. USPS is taking about 3 weeks at the moment.
On the topic of brass. I sold my PSC M-4 off 10 years or more ago. I bought it from Caboose in Denver on consignment and it had been stuffed on someone's display case. You know as lovely a model as it was there was a point on my layout that the thing would drop speed momentarily on and i could never get to the bottom of it and this combined with the fact that the cab had been soldered on slightly askew always annoyed me but I had it 5 or 6 years and enjoyed it so no regrets. i did recently but an Overland C&O F-19 from Brasstrains. It is a stunning model and I got it in a 15% off sale and was then miserable enough to take it on layaway so it cost me like $243 a month for 4 months incl shipping to the UK. I think a great way to get something.
Just on the topic of fidelity and MTH when I was working in Malaysia I had my wife get me a DC only version of the Dryfuss Hudson from BLI. She ordered a '38 one and was sent a '40 i duly got the '38 cars from MTH and it's always seemed a bit of a miss match the other week a '38 shell for MTH came up for no money at all and I though maybe I can do something with that as a display tender mounted on my old Rivarossi chassis. Got it out the box. Seemed a tad bulky. Anyway I was working and I had all 3 tenderbodies beside my monitor and also my calipers. It had to be done and with surprising resilts. The Rivarossi is spot on at 126" scale the BLI is 120" and the MTH is 129" Not the result I'd have expected. They did let themselved down a bit from the ashpan back on the Allegheney and those molded tender steps. Hmm. I will sort that tho. Sometime.
Agree with you. Will it ever come out from Scaletrains? Maybe but in some time and almost certainly not for $549.
My $0.02
Trainman440 Wow, I gotta say, Im impressed with MTH's Yellowstone there. It took a good minute before I noticed the slightly better detail in some areas on the PSC model. Looks much better detailed than their Berk, or even K4s for that matter. (which brass blows them out of the water) Charles
Wow, I gotta say, Im impressed with MTH's Yellowstone there. It took a good minute before I noticed the slightly better detail in some areas on the PSC model.
Looks much better detailed than their Berk, or even K4s for that matter. (which brass blows them out of the water)
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
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Last summer, when the catalog came out showing the MTH 2-8-8-4 with the greenish-grey boiler, I had to order one, knowing it would be the last for MTH. Then after further deliberation I ordered a second one (which my son now wants for himself).
They are here! They are indeed awesome!
I too cannot post pictures here; I do not pay to store photos online anywhere.
I have owned some of the nicest brass steam locos ever made.
However:
The MTH 2-8-8-4 is a relative bargain as compared to the brass (many older brass engines require considerable work to run well and then you need paint). MTH nailed it. The sound is great; the whistle sounds like the whistle in the actual live recordings of DM&IR yellowstones (DM&IR Yellowstones, Giants of Steam dvd). The greenish-grey jacketing color (supposed to match as delivered), I believe they nailed it. The working class lights and illuminated numberboards, even on the headlight, are awesome. The smoke, for those who don't turn it off, is voluminous. The paint is as good as on the Boo Rim Precision brass models (also made in Korea).
The MSRP was $599.95. Nicholas Smith has a few at $549.95 (with 20 of the beautiful MTH ore cars, which can be purchased separately).
There are already people on Ebay asking $1100 for one of these.
BrassTrains sold a mint in box version from the last run made 5 years or so ago for $1100 after having it for only a week or two. This was just a couple months ago. Several of BLI's brass hybrids, when they are even available at BrassTrains, also surpass $1000 now.
My son has a UP 3985 Challenger from BLI, with the updated motor and upgraded P3 decoder. It runs well and will pull 80 cars for us.
The MTH 2-8-8-4 comes with a plain driver for those who do not want a rubber tire on even just the #7 driver. It also has two extra driver tires in the bag and a screwdriver. With the rubber tired driver, I'm not so sure it will pull the 80 cars of the BLI UP Challenger (which may have two rubber tired drivers on it), but it will pull enough for us.
I no longer play with any brass steam. It just got to be too costly for me; I have a child in college and one approaching college. They have things they need to do, lessons in their sport and music. Even my train store (owner) friend says these engines, if you are fortunate enough to get them, are keepers!
I think the MTH 2-8-8-4 is the best steamer I've ever had or run for the money invested; 2nd place would be the BLI challenger with both the upgraded motor and upgraded P3 decoder.
As my loco roster is now nearly all comprised of Bowser SD40-2's, which I also love, I have no plans to buy any more steam for myself (my son has the three other steamers). Perhaps if/when ScaleTrains releases the former MTH 2-8-8-4, with whatever changes they see fit to incorporate, at that time I'd likely get one more, to have the "old" and the "new" versions.
The question is: Will ST even bother to re-release these? There will always be Big Boys available. There are not always Yellowstones available with paint and lights that run well.
It will be interesting to see if Scale Trains decides to reissue the Yellowstone once they start production of the MTH HO line. I'd be more likely to buy a Scale Trains version of an old MTH engine, without having the 'issues' re MTH's DCS decoder system. That being said, I know that Jeff Otto (whose DMIR/GN layout has been featured in MR and some of their special issues) has said his MTH Yellowstones are the best engines he's ever owned, so they must be very good.
Just to be clear - I'm sure you realise - MTH is the one on the right in the file with the clutter in the background.