Photos and diagrams From discussion on Railroad Line Forums
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
There you go, the "puppy paw" look would then be prototypical. No need to refer to Lionel anymore!
Simon
snjroyThanks. Yes, the oversize look of the trucks certainly matches the historical picture shown on that page. Wheel size is something I wonder about. I suspect it was less than 33", but I can't find much on the Web about that.
I don't have evidence to prove it, but I'm pretty sure 33" wheels were the norm for US standard gauge just as soon as spoked wheels disappeared (very early).
Narrow gauge liked 26" or 28" wheels, which look quite large next to a 33" or 36" driver (also normal).
Have to do some more research to verify.
Fred W
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon where it's always 1900....
Thanks. Yes, the oversize look of the trucks certainly matches the historical picture shown on that page. Wheel size is something I wonder about. I suspect it was less than 33", but I can't find much on the Web about that.
"House cars" has been used to describe boxcars, stock cars, and reefers for a long time, AFAIK it's still in use.
Although the Mantua/Tyco trucks may be the wrong type (passenger instead of freight), the wheelbase may be correct. Remember if you have similar trucks on a 40' car and a 28' car, the trucks are going to look too big on the 28' car. Kinda like how an 1860's 4-4-0 with 63" drivers appears to have large driving wheels, whereas a 1920's 2-8-2 with 63" drivers appears to have small drivers.
Here's a model of an 1870's boxcar with what I assume are correct trucks for the period:
http://www.btsrr.com/bts9426.htm
Shock Control Look at this HO Mantua boxcar. It is allegedly based on an 1860s model. The size of the box relative to the size of the trucks makes it look like a Lionel O-gauge car!
Look at this HO Mantua boxcar. It is allegedly based on an 1860s model.
The size of the box relative to the size of the trucks makes it look like a Lionel O-gauge car!
The problem is the trucks, and if I recall right the old time freight cars that Mantua/Tyco had in the catalog to go along with their 4-4-0 "General" locomotive used the same trucks as did their passenger cars that also went along with The General. The trucks are clearly passenger car style trucks, and do look too big for the (more or less correctly scaled) freight cars (boxcar, horse car, flatcar, water car). Sort of like a puppy whose paws are oversized for the rest of the body. Indeed the trucks also look a little modern - more 1880 looking than 1860 looking - to be completely accurate for Civil War era passenger cars.
Disney's "Great Locomotive Chase" film and Buster Keaton's silent "The General" both feature pretty accurate notions of what the freight cars looked like in the 1860s.
Dave Nelson
According to this source:
http://smallmr.com/wordpress/civil-war-era-railroad-equipment/
"There were two primary types of freight cars during the Civil War, “house” cars and “flat’ cars. The house car was the forerunner of the boxcar. It was the proverbial house built on the flat car. Typical era cars were anywhere from 28’ to 36’, the smaller be much more common. "
There are nice pictures on the referred page, I recommend you take a peek.
I can't access my own Mantua cars at this moment, but by memory, they would be within that range in terms of length. I'm actually quite happy that some manufacturers produced these, they are quite rare in RTR format... I would not know about the trucks, but these are easy to change. I actually converted two of these cars to HOn3 without too much trouble.
fwrightTo me, it looks like an excellent starter car for an 1860s to 1870s box car.
That's what the late Cyril Durrenberger MMR used to do. Many issues of the Missabe RR Historical Society's "Ore Extra" publication had articles where he took cars like this and converted them into very realistic models of D&IR or DM&N cars from the 1800's to early 1900's.
The 40'-6" by 10'-6" 'standard' boxcar we tend to picture in our minds when you think 'boxcar' didn't really become common until the mid-20th century. If you look at say Bernard Kempinski's Civil War era layout (Oct 2019 MR) you'll see boxcars were proportioned like this model back then...28' or 32' long, maybe 6' tall or so.
That car looks right to me. Look at the N scale Micro Trains Civil War boxcars...talk about a tiny body with big trucks!
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
ATLANTIC CENTRAL PC101 Good find Mel, Well how do you like that, non of my Athearn PRR Heavy Weight cars came with roofs painted Black. Oh, not a complaint, just an observation. In Blue Box days Athearn never painted the roofs black, I'm pretty sure those are Bowser or BevBel rejects. Bowser and BevBel (and possibly others) painted Athearn cars for road names not offered by Athearn. Sheldon
PC101 Good find Mel, Well how do you like that, non of my Athearn PRR Heavy Weight cars came with roofs painted Black. Oh, not a complaint, just an observation.
Good find Mel, Well how do you like that, non of my Athearn PRR Heavy Weight cars came with roofs painted Black. Oh, not a complaint, just an observation.
In Blue Box days Athearn never painted the roofs black, I'm pretty sure those are Bowser or BevBel rejects. Bowser and BevBel (and possibly others) painted Athearn cars for road names not offered by Athearn.
Sheldon
Actually in the later after Mr. Athearn BB days they did. I have some NKP standard heavy weight passenger cars that are green with black roofs. These have a price tag from 2001 and I believe Irv died in 1991? so this would have been before Horizon took over 2004. Mine came in the later BB with the Santa Fe Dash 9s on the box art.
Ralph
Shock ControlThe size of the box relative to the size of the trucks makes it look like a Lionel O-gauge car!
You are right, it does look like a Lionel freight car.
Nifty.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
BigDaddy There are too many threads on this forum that are complaining about something, mostly things out of our control.
There are too many threads on this forum that are complaining about something, mostly things out of our control.
Your absolutely correct Henry!!
I just received a pair of botched up Athearn Heavy Weight Diner shells to my delight. The shells are new never used and in perfect condition, the lettering is factory screwed up. Just what I wanted and I’m tickled pink. The shells are going to be donor parts for my Mel kitbash specialty cars. Thanks to the donor shells I can kitbash several Athearn heavy weight passenger cars.
Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
As someone who has not routinely seen a lot of 1860s box cars, but as someone who has seen lots of Lionel trains, that photo screams "Lionel" to me more than "1860s box car." If I spent more time with 1860s freight trains, my reference points would be different.
I agree it's EOT marker light ugly. But Mantua has been out of business for 19 years.
There are too many threads on this forum that are complaining about something, mostly things out of our control. Maybe if I get my time machine I can fix this one. Don't wait up tonight for the fix.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
To me, it looks like an excellent starter car for an 1860s to 1870s box car. What hurts is the crudeness of the details - all too typical for plastic "old time" rolling stock. It needs much finer truss rods and brake rigging. All the metal fittings modeled in plastic would be ideally modeled in fine metal or plastic equivalents. Overall length, height, and width are reasonably prototypical, but the truck wheelbase is probably way too big. Body would ideally be lowered and couplers (which are unprototypical anyway) replaced with body mounts.
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....