Hello all. I'm thinking about adding another brass locomotive to my fleet, (I only have one brass engine right now that I bought from a friend a while back) and I was wondering if a quality paint job adds to the price of an HO scale locomotive vs. an unpainted example of the same engine, and if so, how much of an increase would that typically be? I'm just trying to figure out if unpainted would be more affordable to me, and if it would make that much of difference in price. Thanks.
Are you going to paint it youself, or are you going to pay $200 to someone to do it for you?
I would paint it myself.
If done well, yes it can. If done poorly, painting the model can hurt the value.
An "expensive model collector"
My concern is more around if a quality plastic model is released. Seems like the value of a brass engine plummets immediately upon release.
Wolf359I was wondering if a quality paint job adds to the price of an HO scale locomotive vs. an unpainted example of the same engine, and if so, how much of an increase would that typically be?
Yes, a quality paint job adds to the value. Generally, and all black locmotive is increased in value by 25% or so by a good paint job. A fancy paint scheme can increase it much more.
It is not enough of an increase to recover to price of a high quality professional paint job, and if you actually run the locomotive, it will need touch-ups and service along the way, so a top-notch paint job is not necessary for a fleet runner.
You can paint it yourself and get it good enough pretty easy. I enjoy painting locomotives.
Have fun!
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I don't believe it's a yes-or-no situation with brass. Almost nobody wants a plastic model unpainted.................................do they? But a great many people actually prefer unpainted brass. That is what they'll pay for. For those who want painted brass, they will pay for that service, and they'll pay appreciably more for a job well done, an expert job with fine decals added.
So, it depends on the market. Brass is not brass.
I agree with general census, a proffesional paint job increases the value signigicantly. A poor one diminishes it by a tad.
Especially a special paint job such as a streamline paint job (such as SP daylight).
I do wonder how weathering would add/diminish to the value though. I think that's far more subjective, "good" weathering really depends on the buyer/owner's taste and preferences.
Charles
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
There are a number of types of buyers of brass some only want unpainted and others want a great paint job. If you paint it even though you do a great job, you lose customers who want another livery. In general the price of old brass is going down, very little new stuff is coming on the market. I even saw a crtain Crown in very good unpainted go for around $600 the other day, used to go for $1200.
Trainman440I do wonder how weathering would add/diminish to the value though. I think that's far more subjective, "good" weathering really depends on the buyer/owner's taste and preferences.
Going by what I see on the BrassTrains Dot Com website, well done weathering also adds a premium to the value of the model.
A well weathered model lists for a higher price, and does sell quickly.
In the past year I've purchased 3 brass steam locos, 2 professionally painted and one factory. I found that it is less expensive to buy one already done than buy bare brass and have it done by a professional except perhaps if it is a later run with factory paint.
The factory one is a 2002 Van Hobbies CPR Hudson, the last run they did and it only came in a painted version. The paint is amazing as is the detail right down to the red valves in the cab.
There are some good deals out there if you look and are willing to wait if looking for a specific model.
CN Charlie
rrebellThere are a number of types of buyers of brass some only want unpainted and others want a great paint job. If you paint it even though you do a great job, you lose customers who want another livery....
I agree. I paint a lot of brass models for friends, and have done a number of them for a now-gone hobby shop. I never had any idea of what professional painters charged, so I didn't make a lot on the ones done for the hobbyshop, but everything that I painted was well received by their owner...I hope that was because they liked my work, though, and not because my price was so low.
I don't expect my friends to pay, although if they want details added, or particular colours that I don't have on-hand, they usually provide them.All of those friends, however, are very generous, and I often get thoughtful gifts for my work. For me, having them as friends is reward enough.
As for professional paint jobs, one of my friends got a very sweet deal on a large brass locomotive. It was slightly damaged, but had a custom paint job done by a very highly regarded local modeller and custom painter. There was a brass label on the drivers' coverplate naming the painter.My friend already had a couple of these locomotives, usually bought at anywhere between $500.00 and $700.00 apiece, unpainted. I had painted them, and he was well-satisfied with the results.
The hobby shop was about to close (for good, unfortunately) so he got the locomotive for $100.00, likely due to the damage. As we drove back to my place I told him that the damage was repairable, and asked if he wanted it painted in-kind, or new paint. I know that he was impressed with that brass tag, but to be completely honest, it was a weathering job dating from the late '60s/early '70s, with random vertical streaks of a dust-colour airbrushed down the sides of the loco and tender. As I recall, it was all-the-rage at that time, with the pages of MR and RMC covered in photos of similar weathering jobs.
After the repairs and new paint and lettering, it's likely equal in worth to the other two that he already had, whatever their price might be nowadays.
Wayne
If you really want to know the ins and outs contact Zane.
Paint ONLY increases the value if it is a high quality professional paint job. There are painters who "custom paint" brass who do only a half-##s job, and their work does NOT add value to the brass model. This is specifically because most serious brass collectors will look at that custom painted model as one that needs to be stripped to bare brass and repainted.
If the paint is so thick that details start to become obscured, then no--it detracts from the value of the brass model. If the paint finish is uneven, splotchy, or off color--then no, it detracts from the value of the brass model.
Especially with brass diesels, the details are often etched or stamped into the brass sheeting, and the depth of those details is very shallow. It is then easy for an inexperienced painter to get way too much paint film thickness on the model, at which point the details are obscured and the paint has devalued the model. With today's plastic models, the details may exist in relief from the surface of the model, just as with the prototype diesel locomotive or freight car. Some of those details were not adequately achieved in brass diesels, which often are made from brass sheet stock.
I did once paint an Overland Models diesel. My work devalued that model. I highly recommend that anyone who has an inkling of desire to paint a brass model complete several projects in plastic to a high standard of quality first, before ever attempting to paint a brass model. Also remember that the paint will flow to a greater extent on brass than on plastic.
Respectfully submitted--
John
You've given me a lot of food for thought. Thank you everyone.
Only CN Charlie mentioned something worth considering and that's brass with factory paint. It almost always adds to the value (with a few exceptions) and is generally well done. To be certain, it does tend to limit your choices, as painted brass only became common during later years. But if you're buying other than in person, factory paint can be a deciding factor that helps add confidence in what you'll be getting.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
The 2 locos I bought not factory painted both came from Brasstrains. The photos they post do give great means to assess the paint. In fact they said one loco was a factory job it was so good, even underneath. You couod tell from the photos.I later found out from a local expert than none of the run was factory painted but I didn't care, as the quality is so good. They have had a couple of other painted examples but you can tell from the photos they aren't close to mine.
The other loco I bought was a model I wanted and bought based on the paint in the photos. It didn't run well but my brass expert put in a can motor and sound. It literally creeps on speed step 1, slower than any other loco I have. It was less expensive to fix the running issues than buy unpainted and have him paint and still have to get a decoder installed.
These are both Samhongsa models of CN from the 1970s,
It is interesting to note that most more recent brass comes only factory-painted. For Santa Fe steam, it started in the mid-1990s with Hallmark's Super Crown models of class 3765 and class 3776 4-8-4s where an unpainted version was no longer available (well, technically it started in 1968 with PFM's "Blue Goose", but that was clearly an exception). After 2000, nothing new came unpainted anymore (e.g. Division Point's 885, 900/1600 classes; Glacier Park's 3460 class; Global Outlet's 5011 class; TCY's 1337, 5000 classes).
JW
PRR8259 My work devalued that model.
My work destroys the value of the model. That is OK. I bought them for my enjoyment, not for any sustained value.
They are just toys to be played with.
No one will want this Overland Models PRR H-32 Covered Hopper in this paint scheme. I paid $150.00 for this model, now it is worthless, but I love it.
Enjoy your brass!
SeeYou190Enjoy your brass!
Indeed. These discussions often center around value, in a monetary sense.
Brass I have is all for operation. It's an essential part of my railroad. Of course, being in narrowgauge helps with that, but it applies to my few pieces of SG brass, too.
The really unique value that brass has is that it enhances your other modeling.
Indeed, dont let the somewhat drop in value of your own paint job stop you from painting your engines!
That being said, if your idea was to buy, paint and sell said engines for a profit, maybe find earning from another source besides paint jobs.
SeeYou190 I bought them for my enjoyment, not for any sustained value. They are just toys to be played with.
I bought them for my enjoyment, not for any sustained value.
That's what I do with my models, brass or otherwise. I only have one brass engine at the moment, and I would never part with it. I've been looking around for anything interesting to me, and I figured I'd do some research before I decide to buy anything. No sense in paying more than I have to.
SeeYou190 No one will want this Overland Models PRR H-32 Covered Hopper in this paint scheme. I paid $150.00 for this model, now it is worthless, but I love it. Enjoy your brass! -Kevin
You don't give yourself enough credit. I think it's a great looking car. If I found it for sale somewhere, I'd buy it. It's unique, and I like unique things.
The custom painted brass is not worthless, but on the open market would be valued about as much as if it was unpainted. Since unpainted models need to have the lacquer completely stripped anyway prior to painting, removing paint is about a wash for time and expenses. If it's a decent custom job for some private road, some buyers would just leave it alone and enjoy it (like perhaps with the model shown above). Others would maybe want to redo it.
I never said custom painted brass was worthless. Please don't put words into my mouth. I said poorly custom painted brass can be devalued, worth less money than pro-paint would bring. Custom paint is usually worth about as much as an unpainted model. The custom paint just didn't add anything to the value. It is true that more painters think they are good than those who really are good.
One must be very careful with "factory painted" versus "custom painted by OMI" models. Do not value them the same. True factory paint jobs are usually more durable. They didn't use Floquil or Scalecoat paint but lead based paints. The Scalecoat is actually garbage (rubs off sharp edges easily if not primered first) and that is why some pro painters today use better quality automotive grade or urethane paints (recommended over on the facebook brass model groups). The joke is "don't lick your Korean brass factory painted models" because they most likely do (still) have lead paint. I have owned some that were extremely chip resistant and could really be played with just like plastic models without paint or lettering damage.
During the 1980's and into the 1990's, Overland Models used several painters here in the U.S. to custom paint brass models. The quality of those painters' work is very uneven. Some engines and cabeese were fantastically well done--as good as Ajin or Samhongsa's factory painted finishes--and some were just not. Some have poor decal work where the film really shows, or the striping is actually crooked, and some are pretty good. The right way to paint loco pilots is to remove the details, paint and decal the striping, and then re-install those details, but few painters take the time to do them that way. Obviously the end result is in the eye of the beholder and may or may not be worth a premium price.
One other point that should be made: especially with Overland Models, the unpainted models were the best quality ones. If there were flaws in the finish, or other imperfections, sloppy soldering, misaligned pieces--those were the models that received the custom paint here in the U.S. to improve the saleability. The really good looking unpainted models got sold just the way they were, and can sometimes be found in pristine clean condition.
PRR8259Some engines and cabeese were fantastically well done--as good as Ajin or Samhongsa's factory painted finishes--
I enjoy painting and decaling a brass model as much as any other aspect of the hobby — but — I know my limits.
I've watched NKP bay window cabooses from Overland for quite a while. The unpainted versions went for about half what the painted ones were getting.
NKP_caboose-445 by Edmund, on Flickr
When I saw this painted version offered at a very reasonable price I didn't hesitate. I would have had hours into a paint job like this and I'd much rather focus my hobby time on other ventures.
Factory paint doesn't always relate to 100% accuracy, either.
Some years ago I bought a "Creek" series 20th Century observation car. I had to order it in advance from Shoreham Shops (Railway Classics).
When the car arrived it had 3" white striping where it should have been 2". It looked awful and Ajin repainted it at no cost to me.
I still see some of the incorrect ones out there selling for top dollar to unsuspecting buyers. About $5000 for an 8 car set! Caveat emptor.
Cheers, Ed
I like the NKP cabeese too but just never found the right one to buy...they always bring a good amount.
Lastspikemike Brass has already dropped a fair bit for this reason. I won't buy a brass locomotive but I did buy a set of passenger cars all in brass and well painted. If you love model trains you owe it to yourself to acquire at least one brass model. The detail is really worth it.
Brass has already dropped a fair bit for this reason.
I won't buy a brass locomotive but I did buy a set of passenger cars all in brass and well painted.
If you love model trains you owe it to yourself to acquire at least one brass model. The detail is really worth it.
It really depends what you go for. For example I bought a 2nd hand BLI C&O J3a I didn't like the blackened rods - fixed that. I couldn't get over how bably the drivers' white lining had been done - fixed that (nervously) and I white lined the trailing truck and tender bogie wheelsets. Now IMHO it's better than any brass I've seen. Why do I say this? Because the J3's are all way back into the 80's I think and probably rehashes of much earlier examples so in this case Broadway was much much better. To me, perhaps not others. So my belief if that you really have to get to the mid 90s and later to get brass better than the latest from the big guys and there's always the risk that you - as has been said - buy something and the next thing it's out in plastic / die cast and may be better or equal and will for sure diminish the value of your brass.
However, I doesn't need to be that way. I bought an Overland 4-8-2 C&O J2 and another of theirs a C&O 4-6-2 F-19 with all the adornments. They won't come out in plastic and if they do I am happy where I am. I got them for $900 ea unused (oh I know Bachmann did the George Washington locomotive but I can't count that as nice as they were back when) and I don't think that's super expensive these days when rrp on most BLI steam is north of $750 now.
So you pay your money and roll the dice. You may loose some money but not much I don't believe.
Show us if you get something nice.
PRR8259I never said custom painted brass was worthless. Please don't put words into my mouth.
Worthless was my word, not yours.
I always describe my stuff as having low value.
Many times I have dealt with widows and families of deceased model railroaders who were told for years how valuable all the trains were, just to find out how little they were worth when the collection needs to be sold.
I have made sure that my family does not think there is a "goldmine in those models", when selling them for any return will be difficult.
My wife knows the 30 or 40 items that are worth selling, and the 2,000 items she can just let someone have that is willing to remove the layout when I am gone.
I quoted you in my post to give context, but I was not trying to add anything to your original comment.
SeeYou190 PRR8259 My work devalued that model. My work destroys the value of the model. That is OK. I bought them for my enjoyment, not for any sustained value. They are just toys to be played with. No one will want this Overland Models PRR H-32 Covered Hopper in this paint scheme. I paid $150.00 for this model, now it is worthless, but I love it. Enjoy your brass! -Kevin
I'd say an Overland car like that must be worth $150 no matter what.
The thing is the endlessly increasing prices for plastic are supporting a base price for brass to look at the glass half full for once.
Wolf359 Hello all. I'm thinking about adding another brass locomotive to my fleet, (I only have one brass engine right now that I bought from a friend a while back) and I was wondering if a quality paint job adds to the price of an HO scale locomotive vs. an unpainted example of the same engine, and if so, how much of an increase would that typically be? I'm just trying to figure out if unpainted would be more affordable to me, and if it would make that much of difference in price. Thanks.
Don't know if you are thinking about acquiring the WMC SP MK-10 2-8-2 we discussed in a separate thread, but if you are, a nonprototypical paint job (like painting it for the Midland Terminal) will typically take a bite out of the price, no matter how well it's done.
There's one exception- if you make the physical modifications that model would need to simulate the prototype you want (such as removing the train indicator boards), you could potentially raise the value - if the job is very well done (by that I mean quality workmanship and modifications that are historically correct).
I realize I'm answering a question you didn't ask, so feel free to disregard it if this isn't the project you have in mind.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
TheFlyingScotsmanThat's very nice indeed. Factory quality. I can never get decals as good as that. They always have a decal look no matter what tutorial I watch, whereas that looks stencilled.
Thanks for the kind words. The paint on this model went on very well. Sometimes everything goes well, sometimes not. Decals are something I have an incredible amount of experience with, not just model trains, but wargaming and scale models as well.
Practice, and Daco Strong, are the only real adivice I have.