SeeYou190 Follow up question... How can you tell if a brass model is clear coated?
Follow up question...
How can you tell if a brass model is clear coated?
The clear coat should also act as an electrical insulator, so if you touch 2 leads with a low voltage to the part and don't get a short at most points, there's a clear coat. If you get a short no matter where you touch the leads, and if you see signs of tarnish in most areas, then it's bare brass. Clear coats may also have a non-metallic gloss shine, and more easily pick up color stains from disintegrating foam.
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PM RailfanIm still out on the brass paint thing. Clear coat yes, but brass paint? I think yall are pulling my leg here.
I've come across maybe four or five of my brass models that have been "painted" with a metallic brass colored paint. That's out of a total of perhaps 20 or 25 models, so about one quarter of them.
After stripping, the lacquer thinner looked like liquid gold when I was done.
Next time I come across it I'll try to remember to take photos
See how hi-tech the "clear-coat" is applied:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeff_lemke/29194588974/in/album-72157664865492920/
These are Overland and W&R models, not some "entry-level" lines.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeff_lemke/albums/72157664865492920
From the photo caption:
While this outside spray booth set-up is a bit crude, it’s also effective and efficient too. Many smaller builders that lacked sufficient resources to have a proper finishing department employed a different method of coating the brass. Instead of doing the acid bath and clear coat treatment they simply painted the models with brass or gold colored paint to give them a uniform appearance. Many modelers who decided to strip those models before painting them got quite a surprise when they dunked their model into the stripping solution.
Regards, Ed
PM RailfanI wouldnt have thought, the sometimes fragile models we have, could tolerate any kind of 'bead' cleaning.
I used #13 glass bead per a suggestion from another forum user. I bought an ultra-cheap blast media gun from China just to try out the technique.
It worked, but the glass dust is a severe irritant, and extreme car must be taken not to get it in your eyes. I would only suggest glass bead blasting in cases where it is absolutely necessary.
I had a Oriental Powerhouse USRA mikado that came factory painted in brass color. The Powerhous series of locomotives have cast boilers, so I was 100% sure the brass was painted on.
That paint did not want to come off, and it I had not known better, I would have assumed it was bare brass, the color was perfect. I had to soak the boiler in Safety-Klean carburetor cleaner to get the paint off. Getting the paint off of the brass cab required a week-long soak in brake fluid.
After my experience with this brass paint, I am open to there being brass paint on brass models.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Very interesting!
I wouldnt have thought, the sometimes fragile models we have, could tolerate any kind of 'bead' cleaning.
Im still out on the brass paint thing. Clear coat yes, but brass paint? I think yall are pulling my leg here.
Shelf queens? Well, no, not what i meant. I just dont have a place to run the brass. Will i run it when i do get the trackage, probably. Until then, i wanna maintain their 'like new' appearance without painting them. That means in a box for now.
(but for shelf queens in general, displaying is still a use. Even if they are made for actual use. Ive loved every wall display ive ever seen. Brass or plastic.)
As mentioned, i have only 2 brass... An NKP models C&O hack that also resembles the PM. That will get painted and used. One day. Til then i need it to remain viable. So this is why i read this thread.
The loco was a gift. A GN Pacific. My first brass loco, so it already has sentimental value. It needs to remain original. Also to my benfit is this thread because id like to keep this loco in pristine original shape and need to know about long term storage. This one is pretty much for display. Im pretty sure she has a clear coat on her. She has no faults in the skin or parts. As for brass paint , ill have to look real close next time she sees daylight.
I did get a 5 car set of Athearn cars in GN colors to go with her - just in case.
Thanks for all the good info guys!
-PMR
trainnut1250Kevin – I painted the same Sierra caboose model in your photo. Mine had at least a coat of brass colored paint on it – hard to tell what else was in the chemical paint thinner soup that came off the model. I was forced to strip the caboose due to a very thick paint job in the wrong color. I saw gold flecks in the thinner (lots of them) indicating a coat of brass paint underneath the topcoat.
Thank you for this. I guess my cleaning process does not damage the paint or clear coat.
The only brass model I have stripped so far is the NWSL caboose model. I ended up buying a small glass bead gun to get the most stubborn paint off of it.
It still is not perfect, but as good as it is going to get.
You are correct in saying that my brass locos are not meant to be shelf queens. I like to see these little wheels rolling... But if I did not have a layout, I would buy or build a nice shelf with glass doors to show them off. I would advocate that it is the best way to preserve these items, especially if it's in the shade and in a climate-controlled environment. Weird things happens in boxes... Besides, you do want to look and admire them, don't you?
Simon
Some brass collectors keep their brass as it was bought, usually nowadays painted in a brass colour and often with a clear coat over it. Older brass models weren't always painted, but I think that when collectors realised that the brass would eventually tarnish or that joints soldered with perhaps a little less care might turn black or begin to show efflorescence, it may have prompted calls to have those problems address by the builders, hence the brass-coloured paint and the clear coating.
Some brass models are sold with factory paint, and that may demand a premium over what might be payed for a non-painted version of the same model.
I have a friend who had a number of brass locomotives, and all were painted - some perhaps by professional painters, some by my friend, and maybe some painted by his wife, as she also built and painted structures and other things for their layout.One day, while visiting, I commented that he had quite a collection of brass locomotives, but his response was that he didn't collect brass locomotives as assets, but rather collected them as tools: if they don't run well and pull well, and I can't get them to do so, then they're no good to me at all, so they're gone. He wasn't kidding, either, as I eventually remotored a lot of his brass locos, simply because he ran them until the motor died, and since they had always been good runners, remotoring them was a good way to get them back to doing what he wanted - moving his trains.
I happened to meet another and now long-time friend, on the day I was delivering a brass loco which I had painted for a hobbyshop. It turned out he was the one who asked to have his loco painted.In the 40 plus years that I've known him, I've painted, repaired, and altered dozens of brass locomotives for him, and also helped him to build a layout, even though it's become, in many ways, his model display case. He is an avowed collector, and only occasionally, will operate his brass locos...often on my layout, when he's picking-up newly painted ones.He has one, recently acquired, that I've been asked to alter very slightly, and it is a brass-painted loco which he wishes to keep in that new, just-out-of-the-box appearance, destined to sit forever in a display case.He has another brass steam locomotive that came factory-painted, and asked if I could weather it for him, in the fairly light fashion that I use on most of his locomotives.When he brought it here for weathering, we put it on my layout and ran it....one of the nicest running brass steam locomotives that I had ever seen, smooth and quiet, and with a beautiful paint job and excellent decal lettering which appeared to be painted-on. I suggested that it not be weathered, partly due to its perfection, but also because it had cost very close to $2,000.00, and I felt that many collectors would consider weathering such a gem to be sacrilege, in the event he ever decided to sell it.A couple of years ago, we went to an estate auction (I knew the deceased only casually), but his family was very pragmatic about selling his extensive collection of brass at "reasonable prices", rather than holding out for making a bundle. I bought one small loco at what I considered to be a very reasonable price, and my friend, over a period of several days, bought several, including one as a gift for me, as I would be painting his new acquisitions.In this collection were 3 or 4 of the same beautiful loco which I described earlier, all in immaculate factory paint, and all with the same number as that of my friend's locomotive. The asking price was much less than what my friend had payed, but it was not a loco that I needed, nor one I could afford.
At one time, storing brass locomotives in their original foam-lined boxes was considered a good way to preserve them, but some types of foam eventually degrades severely, and I've seen quite a few such models in a pretty bad state. Wrapping the models in plastic seems to be a good method to guard against rotten foam, but it also helps to prevent small details from being damaged or broken-off when the loco is regularly taken out of its box and just as often, put back again.
Since I don't collect locomotives as display pieces, but rather as useful tools to move trains, I don't worry too much about storing them - they're usually on the layout, ready for use, although every once in a while, I'll service them as required, or maybe change a detail or two. I don't worry about their value, as I won't be around when the time comes to sell them. They'll be worth whatever the buyer considers them to be worth.
Wayne
Simon, Guy, Kevin and Dr. Wayne,
Exactly what i was looking to hear. Great explanations and variation. So let me pose the next step.
Most of you (as we see by some of the pics posted) operate your brass. So after all the detail and paint work is done, when the models are on the layout, its presumed they are maintained just like any other model.... on the layout.
But what about someone like moi, without a layout, and not any real intention of running the brass i have or will collect. Essentially, store now with intent to display in future.
By following some of the advice above, lets say i get my brass de-coated, cleaned, etched, then re-coated. No paint or prime as I understand this will retain the value (for another post) keeping it original. What would be the proper way to store the model that could possibly lead to years?
The 2 models I have came wrapped in plastic, surrounded by foam, in very nice boxes. Something tells me theres a bit more to storing these than your average Blue Box Athearn. Will this still be my SOP for storage or do i need to alter it?
To the point - we have our nice shiny brass... how do we take care of it from this point on? Again, many thanks guys!
PM Railfan....Alvie says if your gonna go with the clearcoat, no need to do all the other stuff. Totally understandable, but it begs to ask.... then why do folks do it anyways?....
I use a primer over the clear coat, mainly because I usually modify brass locos to either better-match their prototypes, or because I modify the loco to better-suit my tastes in free-lance modelling.This one, my first brass loco, was a model of a B&M B-15, and didn't run. I re-motored it and changed a couple of details. Even though it had been clear-coated, I primed it using grey autobody spray-can primer, then painted and lettered it for one of my freelanced roads....
Later, I decided to modify it more to my own tastes...
...and all the new stuff got primer, too, whether it was brass or plastic.
I have a couple of other small brass steamers (a Ten-Wheeler and a Mogul), both models of CNR prototypes. I've modified both locos to better-match particular prototypes, but both have tenders which are definitely incorrect for the locos which I'm trying to represent (they're perfectly okay for some CNR prototypes, but not the two I want. I'll save the tender bodies, in case the next owner wants to use them simply because they're brass, but I'll use the brass floors and trucks, with scratchbuilt tender bodies, made most in plastic....all of which will get primer.
The purpose of primer is not only a surface preparation for painting, but it also serves to make the object being painted uniform in colour prior to painting. This is an important consideration when a model is modified using materials either dissimilar in their make-up or in their colour.
My experiences,
How do you know if the model is clear coated? My understanding is that lots of brass is painted at the factory with a brass colored paint and then clear coated. The brass colored paint hides the solder discoloration (try soldering to brass and see how it looks.) and the clear coat prevents tarnishing. There are many collectors out here who don’t paint brass and the idea is to keep the models looking new (bright gold) in the display case.
I just presume that there is a clear coat. If I can’t see any visible solder on the model, I presume there is a coat of gold/brass paint as well.
I leave the clear coat on the model and paint over it. I have stripped only a few brass models. It was difficult to remove all of the clear coat. I had to use obnoxious chemicals and it was a very time consuming. I have painted many brass models since those experiences without stripping them. I got excellent results spraying right on the clearcoat with and without primer.
I started using primer on locomotives as a layer to help the paint stick to the model a little better. I use very thin coats of paint and models can get dinged up from lots of handling. The primer seems to help prevent that issue. I use only acrylic based paint, I don’t know about the durability of lacquer or solvent base paint in regards to scuffs.
Kevin – I painted the same Sierra caboose model in your photo. Mine had at least a coat of brass colored paint on it – hard to tell what else was in the chemical paint thinner soup that came off the model. I was forced to strip the caboose due to a very thick paint job in the wrong color. I saw gold flecks in the thinner (lots of them) indicating a coat of brass paint underneath the topcoat. BTW: the prototype Sierra #9 is painted light green.....
If you are going to strip the model, I recommend an industrial grade bead/sandblasting set up. I had no luck with the “air eraser” type air brush attachments when attempting to strip clear coat off of brass.
Try painting some models and see what works for you. I certainly now know what does, and does not work for me...
Have fun,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
PM RailfanKevin mentions a rather detailed process. But CRC? I use this alot, but not on models. Especially any of expense. My impression is that you are trying to get that skin REALLY clean. OR, are you removing the clearcoat, which im sure the CRC will do quite effectively? OR, since its an oil and grease remover, im suspecting a cleaning after youve handeled the model by hand possibly?
I typed the incorrect product. I use CRC Contact Cleaner, not CRC Brake & Parts Cleaner. I have fixed the previous post.
Contact cleaner removes all residues and dries fast. I use it on all kinds of models. It might not be necessary, but it is part of my process.
I have never seen CRC Contact Cleaner remove a clear coat, but as I said, I am not sure any of the models I have painted had a clear coat.
PM RailfanNow over the years ya hear things, and using vinegar to etch something isnt new. Is this the prefered medium, or would an acetone of some kind be better?
This is a case of just doing it as I was taught. The first brass model I ever painted was my Tenshodo USRA 0-8-0, which needs a repaint because i have become a much better painter over the years.
The paint was applied with the help of a "local master" that had an extensive collection of brass locomotives. I prepped it with vinegar per his instructions, and in 12+ years it has not had any paint problems.
Since it worked, I will continue to do it that way.
PM RailfanAlvie says if your gonna go with the clearcoat, no need to do all the other stuff. Totally understandable, but it begs to ask.... then why do folks do it anyways?
A light gray primer, for me, is just an easier surface to paint over. If there is a clear coat, it is pretty smooth and shiny. The gray primer will provide a bit of a "tooth" for the paint to adhere to.
As I said, I am not sure any of the brass models I painted have a clear coat. Of all my brass models, the only one I am pretty sure has a clear coat is this boxcar model. It actually looks like it has a coat of varnish on it.
On the other hand, I am 99% sure this caboose does not have a clear coat. It just looks like raw brass. How can I be sure?
snjroy I would rather clean them thoroughly and apply a light coat of primer everywhere - where I can see it - just to make sure. The thing with the clear coat is that you can't really see where it was applied... So I would prefer to play it safe.
This is a great observation, and a compelling reason to prime over the clear coat, if there is one.
I am not really big on chest-thumping and saying my way is the right way. If I am happy with my results I share my techniques. If they help out someone else, that is great, but if I am doing something wrong, I want to know.
I try to keep an open mind about learning a better way.
These are really good questions. I buy my brass items used, so I don't really know the history of them. I don't even know how they put the clear coat at the "factory"... So, I would rather clean them thoroughly and apply a light coat of primer everywhere - where I can see it - just to make sure. The thing with the clear coat is that you can't really see where it was applied... So I would prefer to play it safe.
About vinegar: I won't argue against that, but avoid leaving a piece in vinegar an extended length of time. It is corrosive and can cause, well, corrosion! I speak from experience. I've stopped using the vinegar step myself. Auto primer is a very good product, especially if you bake it lightly for about 20 minutes (if your spouse allows that! I had to buy a small shelf oven for that purpose as the kitchen is off limits when it comes to non-food items).
DSC_0117 on Flickr
First off - love the loco shot Kevin!
Now, the good stuff -
So owning brass is the next step for me as far as collecting goes. Never really thought about it due to its expense AND... ive heard its alot of maintenance to keep them from things like 'tarnish' or 'oxidization'.
Recently i have had two brass models come into my possession. I wasnt really planning to read this thread as i am not ready to paint the models yet. However, im glad i did.
Some of you have mentioned the clearcoat. Im on board with this but i found it curious you would paint another 'primer' over the clearcoat if one of its purposes is to act as a primer. Am i to presume your doing this to give your final 'paint' a better base? Or is there another reason?
Kevin mentions a rather detailed process. But CRC? I use this alot, but not on models. Especially any of expense. My impression is that you are trying to get that skin REALLY clean. OR, are you removing the clearcoat, which im sure the CRC will do quite effectively? OR, since its an oil and grease remover, im suspecting a cleaning after youve handeled the model by hand possibly?
Now over the years ya hear things, and using vinegar to etch something isnt new. Is this the prefered medium, or would an acetone of some kind be better? And do brass models really need etching? Is it ok to presume most, or all brass needs etching? Even if not painting, but the first clean before a re-clearcoat for storage?
Alvie says if your gonna go with the clearcoat, no need to do all the other stuff. Totally understandable, but it begs to ask.... then why do folks do it anyways?
Im hearing what you guys are doing, but the OP and I would like just a PINCH more info on as to the why. You know, just incase someone drops a nice Key Imports or NKProducts on me. Im sure its gonna come down to the finished product, and personal preference. Of the differences, id like some solid ground to judge from.
Thanks folks!
PMR
I own several, and as best as I can tell, they are bare brass.
I had to do a soldering repair on my Alco Models USRA 0-8-0, and had no problem. If it was clear coated, would it be difficult to solder to?
I'll echo Doctor Wayne's suggestions to clean with hot water and soap (dish soap) and not handle with bare hands until ready to paint. If the factory clear coat is in good, clean condition, no need to strip it. And as it's already clear coated, no need to use vinegar to etch metal surfaces.
Alvie
I agree - the clearcoat protects the brass from tarnishing and also acts as a primer, although there's no harm in applying a suitably-coloured primer over it, before painting.For painting brass, I do any alterations, such as additional or modified details, and usually add all-wheel pick-ups to the drivers. Next, I partially disassemble the loco and tender (to what degree depends on how I plan to paint, so often the frame retains the drivers, with only lead and trailing trucks removed, along with the motor), then everything goes into a sink with hot water and dish detergent, followed by a rinse with water and then everything is allowed to air-dry.After that, any handling of the parts is done while wearing nitrile gloves until the paint and lettering is completed.
To my knowledge, the clear coat does two things: 1) it prevents tarnish and 2) it acts as a primer when painting. I have applied primer over the clear coat several times without having any issues. I washed the loco with alcohol beforehand. Removing the clear coat, in my opinion, is unecessary, unless there are signs of corrosion underneath.
I have never made any attempt to remove the clear coat, and I am not 100% sure any of my brass models have a clear coat.
I clean them with detergent, dry with compressed air, soak in vingar, spray with CRC Contact Cleaner, and dry with compressed air.
So far I have had no problems. I use Scalecoat 2.
Northwest Short Line tank car:
Precision Scale covered hopper car:
Lambert transfer caboose:
I have a van hobbies CNR 2-8-2 S-2 Mikado unpainted with the factory clearcoat that I'm going to paint with scalecoat 1 and I have acouple qustions. Do I need to strip the clearcoat before giving it a viniger bath? How much of an effect dose soaking in vinger have? How long should the viniger soak be? Would it be a bad idea just to paint over the clearcoat without doing anything?