Hey guys, I'm new here, but I've been reading the forums for a while and they've been super helpful for me.
Recently I've bought several new locomotives. Trying to model modern Union Pacific.
For a while I had been buying slightly used, and sending loads of them back for various issues with packaging for shipping, or problems the buyer didn't disclose. The usual eBay stuff. Kept a couple that ran well and have worked well for me.
I then decided to try some brand new locomotives. The most recent ES44ACs from Intermountain and Athearn Genesis caught my eye. However, both of the first two units I ordered, one from each manufacturer, have had bad wheel squealing problems.
I did the usual stuff. Used lube only where I could confirm the squeal was coming from. The Intermountain was running very rough at one point, then smoothed out a bit, and was quiet. But then the squealing came back, as well as some lurching at low speeds, and I decided to send it back. The Athearn just arrived today, and it's squealing even worse. Just did the same dance of trying to track down which parts of the wheel trucks were squealing, a ton of trial and error, with only a slight improvement, followed by a complete return of the original squealing.
Bought a used Atlas GP40 recently as well, which is ALSO squealing very badly. I spent hours yesterday basically lubing every single part of the locomotive I could access, including EVERYWHERE on the wheel trucks, in an attempt to chase it down. No improvement AT ALL.
Needless to say, I've grown very frustrated. The one loco I own that is not squealing at all is a Kato Dash 9. I did have to lube it when first receiving, but it's been quiet and smooth ever since.
Looking for some advice. Do I keep sending these brand new units back until I get one that isn't squealing? Am I likely to get lucky and get one that's quiet, or are they all likely to behave the same way? Do I keep these and keep trying to chase down the source of the squealing?
From the very thorough examining Ive done on the Atlas, Intermountain, and Athearn Genesis wheel trucks over the past few days, it looks like theyre all using a similar basic design, with similar materials, and the actual sound and the source of it all seem very very similar on the 3 units, which makes me think I might not get that lucky if I just exchange for new units. But maybe someone who knows better can shed some light on that.
I'm really annoyed that these brand new locos I'm paying top dollar for are squealing obnoxiously right out of the box, and Im forced to start diagnosing them and taking them apart right away instead of getting to enjoy them. A little engine noise is fine, but we've all heard that loud, piercing squealing. It's a complete vibe killer.
Sorry for the long post. Looking for any guidance you guys can offer.
Thanks,
Matt
to the forum. Your first posts are moderated and therefore delayed.
I thought this was going to be a decoder sound question. Your problem doesn't ring a bell from recent posts and I'm afraid I have nothing to offer, but I'll give your post a bump into today's posts. We have lots of knowledgeable members who may be able to help.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Does his happen only on curves, or on straight tracks, too? What radius curves are you using? Do you have any indication of what the manufacturer says is the minimum radius these engines should run on? Does this happen with or without rolling stock coupled behind? Forward only, reverse only or both?
Are these DC or DCC engines, and are you running them with an appropriate power source?
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I hate to say this, especially to a new forum member, but you sound like an eBay seller's worst nightmare, "sending loads of them back for various issues". Plus, returning brand new locomotives back to the manufacturers.
Have you considered that it may be your track work? What type of track are you using and what is the radius of the curves? It seems as if the squealing on so many locomotives is due to the stress on the wheels caused by the track itself.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainI hate to say this, especially to a new forum member, but you sound like an eBay seller's worst nightmare, "sending loads of them back for various issues". Plus, returning brand new locomotives back to the manufacturers.
I agree Rich, wheel squeal? Some would pay extra to have that CV on a decoder!
Define "wheel squeal". Lets hear it.
Mike.
My You Tube
Hi and Aboard!
I don't recall ever having a problem of a "squeal" sound from the trucks or axles. They turn so slowly that that type of sound wouldn't be generated there, in my experience.
Out of maybe 300 locomotives I have presently or formerly owned I recall a high-pitched squeal on maybe five or six of them (Proto 2000, usually) and this sound either came from motor bearings or worm shaft bearings.
In other cases where I couldn't actually pin down the source of the squeal it turned out that it was coming from the motor brushes and by turning the brushes 180° and playing with the spring tension a bit I finally eliminated (or greatly reduced) the squeal.
The only advice I can offer is simply RUN THEM!
Some of my locomotives are going on 25 years old. Many have been lubed only once (after their initial inspection/lubing when new or acquired) in their lifetime.
Does your layout allow continuous running? If so, Run Them! Two or three hours in each direction, alternating direction every fifteen or twenty minutes or so.
IF you can not continuously run them, invest in a set of rollers where you can run the locos on the bench while observing (listening to) their operation. Run them!
IF they are still squealing after five or six hours of run time, then look for a possible problem IF they haven't quieted down by then.
I've taken apart some of my older locomotives which I estimate have had at least 3- or 400 hours of running time and can barely see any perceptible wear. They are designed for hours of running.
Good Luck, Ed
We need more technical info. Does this happen in both directions? Does this happen all over the layout, on straight track or curved track. Are you operating DC or DCC? What is the manufacture of your power pack?Are you sure it is wheel noise?Does speed change the noise?What scale?What kind of track?Is the track on plywood? Is the track on cork or foam?Your question is kinda like a guy saying my car wont run, what’s wrong with it.It is very unusual for a locomotive to squeal let alone a bunch, especially new out of the box. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
MisterBeasley Does his happen only on curves, or on straight tracks, too? What radius curves are you using? Do you have any indication of what the manufacturer says is the minimum radius these engines should run on? Does this happen with or without rolling stock coupled behind? Forward only, reverse only or both? Are these DC or DCC engines, and are you running them with an appropriate power source?
RR_Mel We need more technical info. Does this happen in both directions? Does this happen all over the layout, on straight track or curved track. Are you operating DC or DCC? What is the manufacture of your power pack?Are you sure it is wheel noise?Does speed change the noise?What scale?What kind of track?Is the track on plywood? Is the track on cork or foam?Your question is kinda like a guy saying my car wont run, what’s wrong with it.It is very unusual for a locomotive to squeal let alone a bunch, especially new out of the box. Mel
We need more technical info. Does this happen in both directions? Does this happen all over the layout, on straight track or curved track. Are you operating DC or DCC? What is the manufacture of your power pack?Are you sure it is wheel noise?Does speed change the noise?What scale?What kind of track?Is the track on plywood? Is the track on cork or foam?Your question is kinda like a guy saying my car wont run, what’s wrong with it.It is very unusual for a locomotive to squeal let alone a bunch, especially new out of the box. Mel
Since you guys are asking similar questions I'll try to tackle them all in one go.
Update for everyone: I reached out to Athearn support, and they said, "The squeaking is from the axles rubbing against the electrical contacts and not the gears." That was all they said.
From the parts diagram, it appears that the pickup sits on the outside edge of the side of each truck, underneath the truck cover. I might try to hit those areas again with a bit more lube, though I'm afraid it'll mess with the conductivity.
I read somewhere else that squealing can sometimes just go away on its own once the locos have been broken in, and the parts creating the friction simply wear each other away a bit. So I might just let them run for a while and see if it improves on its own.
Here's what it sounds like: https://voca.ro/1gz47rJQRVBB That's from the brand new Athearn Genesis ES44.
Lovely, isn't it?
Here are the locos I have that are running smooth and quiet on the same layout: Kato Dash 9, MTH ES44AC, Intermountain SD40-2, Kato SD38-2.
Maybe it has nothing to do with the bearings and motor. I thought about it and realized, only time i have a constant squeak is when a pilot or plow was to low and drug over the rail. If he lubed the bearsings gears and such and it still persists. It could be a clearance issue. That would effect all the different engines equally. Need a video if possible
shane
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
My experience, even long 6 axle locomotives on a tight radius bind up and usually the front truck lifts enough to "climb" the rail and derails.
I've never heard "flange squeal", just derailments.
I have experienced squealing on various HO scale locomotives: in my experience, it is an intermittent problem that tends to occur in winter when the relative and absolute humidity levels are low here in the Upper Midwest. I apply a very small drop of LaBelle lubricating fluid where the axle meets the electrical contact, and the squealing disappears. After a couple of years have passed, the lube evaporates away and the squealing returns, so I repeat the process.
If one is concerned about electrical conductivity, one can buy the electrically conductive lubricant. Atlas, Peco, and others have sold it. I routinely use it on the bronze electrical pickup plate that the axle ends are riding in, and it also makes a good track cleaner. If I put the electrically conductive lubricant on a small section of track, every time I run, it keeps the loco wheels clean. Maybe I need to wipe off my track with a paper towel about once a month--and that can be a quick operation.
The electrically conductive lubricant evaporates into the air much faster than any other lubricant, so it requires more frequent application than once a year on the axle ends.
John
mattyjoeUpdate for everyone: I reached out to Athearn support, and they said, "The squeaking is from the axles rubbing against the electrical contacts and not the gears." That was all they said.
OK I don't remember seeing this info on your post when I read it through the first time, and replied earlier, but...
What I use to lub that area is CRC 2-26. It's made to lubricate areas that also are electrical contacts.
I use a tiny round tip brush to apply it. I do this on a fairly regular basis on Genesis, Kato, and Scale Trains locos I have, as they all share the same design for electrical pick-up. I'm not familiar with IM locos, but I'm sure they also use this design.
I don't remember the squeaking noise, as my locos have been around awhile, with a lot of run time, but when I notice poor running due to electrical issues, that contact point is where I look first.
The CRC 2-26 cures it.
I don't take anything apart, just use the tiny brush to dab some of the lubricant onto the area where the end of the axles ride on the pick up bar.
This should stop the squeaking issue.
The OP is complaining about squealing, not squeaking. There is a difference, at least to my ear.
Rich, scroll up and listen to the sound file he has. I think he's edited his post with new info, instead of a direct response.
You can hear the squeak he's asking about. It's not a squeal, like flange squeal.
Turn the sound up.
mbinsewi Rich, scroll up and listen to the sound file he has. I think he's edited his post with new info, instead of a direct response. You can hear the squeak he's asking about. It's not a squeal, like flange squeal. Turn the sound up. Mike.
Could it be a squeakle?
Could his pet gerbil be squeakling in the background?
Seriously, though, how could this be happening on so many new and use locos that he says he has bought and returned?
Sorry. Wheels don't squeal on modern locomotives. Its something else.
I have purchased many locomotives this year. Atlas. Genesis.
Any noise that could be described a squeal comes from where the two metal shafts that hold the flywheels stick through the plastic cradle that holds the motor. AKA motor bearings. I has to be tight because you dont want slop there.
OTOH, there is plenty of slop around the wheels. Highly doubt there is a squeal, unless a wheel isn't seated correctly.
I flush the motor bearings with CRC, then use a small drop of plastic compatible oil on each bearing. Hold the loco vertically and rotate the flywheel with a finger so it gets in there.
Then lots of break in at high speed for about 10 minutes. Back and forth.
AND give it time to sort of soak in, disburse after warming up.
And if these locos are not brand new production.....New Old Stock.....the bearings might be dried out totally. The soaking in matters.
It took me several CRC shpritzes and oil drops and break ins over several days to finally get the motor area on two NOS Atlas GP40s to quiet down.
Also, I get truck tower "growl" with new locos. Too much thick grease in the trucks seems to get in the way of the gears seating well with each other. I remove the worm gears and clean them with CRC, and take a thin screwdriver and lift out the heavy grease before applying liberal amount of CRC. Then break in for 10 minutes.
As far as buying on EBAY, don't make any assumptions. Condition is one thing, but performance and noise is in the ears of the beholder. If something is noisy, I do make a point to say that.
A buyer would quickly land on my blocked buyer list if any item was returned out of pickiness rather than a poor description. It takes just once to be banned forever. It has happened over the years and my blocked buyer list is about 12 names long now.
- Douglas
LastspikemikeCRC 2 26 is similar to WD 40. It is not intended to lubricate or conduct electricity. It will clean metal conducting surfaces but there are better cleaners for that. The primary function of these products is water dispersal. WD stands for that in fact. It is a reasonable corrosion inhibitor. The sense that it conducts electricity results from these other characteristics. It does not lubricate. It is not conductive.
Always worked for me, and will continue to do so.
Douglas, scroll up and listen to his sound file, turn up the volume.
My Bachmann 3 truck Shay screamed like a bat when I first ran it new. I found disassembly directions online and oiled the motor bearings. Much quieter now. Maybe the squeal would have subsided after some running time but I'll never know. I feel much better getting inside to lube everything the factory may have missed. And I'm still proud as heck I took this baby apart and got it back together.
mbinsewi Lastspikemike CRC 2 26 is similar to WD 40. It is not intended to lubricate or conduct electricity. It will clean metal conducting surfaces but there are better cleaners for that. The primary function of these products is water dispersal. WD stands for that in fact. It is a reasonable corrosion inhibitor. The sense that it conducts electricity results from these other characteristics. It does not lubricate. It is not conductive. Always worked for me, and will continue to do so. Douglas, scroll up and listen to his sound file, turn up the volume. Mike.
Lastspikemike CRC 2 26 is similar to WD 40. It is not intended to lubricate or conduct electricity. It will clean metal conducting surfaces but there are better cleaners for that. The primary function of these products is water dispersal. WD stands for that in fact. It is a reasonable corrosion inhibitor. The sense that it conducts electricity results from these other characteristics. It does not lubricate. It is not conductive.
I stand corrected about it never happening. I don't think oiling a wheel is going to do much. Its probably a bent wheel not resting on the axle correctly or the axle not resting in the truck properly. Defective.
Or try disassembling the truck from underneath, the sideframes, contacts and axles, then reinstall. Maybe swap the front axle with the back axle within the truck.
I was under the impression this was happenening to many locomotives, which would be rare. Yeah, if its just one, it could be something a little off when assembled.
UPDATE #2: Score 1 for Athearn Support. They were spot on. I lubed the locos again on the outside edge and bearing of the wheels, where they contact the electrical pickup, and the squealing/squeaking is gone.
My confusion came from misidentifying the source of the sound, in an effort to not lube places where I didn't have to. I did lube those areas too at first, but much more lightly. I focused more on the inner axels themselves, since it seemed like that was where the noise was coming from when I played around with the wheels manually.
Let the record show that Athearn was completely right, and anyone who finds this thread in the future, lube this part of the wheels:
https://imgur.com/a/M9rsi9M
Focus on the outer edge of the wheel bearing, and that contact point along the side of the truck. Thats where the sound comes from.
Apologize for my use of the word "squealing" over "squeaking." I suppose both words could be used to describe the sound.
Thanks everyone for the responses. And those of you who can't believe a modern day expensive loco does this out of the box; I can't either. This was where my frustration was coming from. In the long run, easy fix. But not something you'd expect right out of the box, with two of the most reputable brands in the business.
Posting photos in this forum is complicated. There is a sticky in the General Forum. I am pressed for time at the moment, but
mattyjoe UPDATE #2: Score 1 for Athearn Support. They were spot on. I lubed the locos again on the outside edge and bearing of the wheels, where they contact the electrical pickup, and the squealing/squeaking is gone. My confusion came from misidentifying the source of the sound, in an effort to not lube places where I didn't have to. I did lube those areas too at first, but much more lightly. I focused more on the inner axels themselves, since it seemed like that was where the noise was coming from when I played around with the wheels manually. Let the record show that Athearn was completely right, and anyone who finds this thread in the future, lube this part of the wheels: https://imgur.com/a/M9rsi9M Focus on the outer edge of the wheel bearing, and that contact point along the side of the truck. Thats where the sound comes from. Apologize for my use of the word "squealing" over "squeaking." I suppose both words could be used to describe the sound. Thanks everyone for the responses. And those of you who can't believe a modern day expensive loco does this out of the box; I can't either. This was where my frustration was coming from. In the long run, easy fix. But not something you'd expect right out of the box, with two of the most reputable brands in the business.
A lot of your problem likely comes from the fact that you have very sharp curves for such big locomotives.
Sheldon
BigDaddy Posting photos in this forum is complicated. There is a sticky in the General Forum. I am pressed for time at the moment, but
Well I'll be darned. Never knew that could happen.
In the past 20 years, I have probably owned over 100 locos with that same truck/contact design. I have never heard a wheel squeak and I've never bothered to lube them, and I'm someone who has a low tolerance for unexplained noises.
In fact, when I typically do truck maintenance, I cleaned out those contact holes with alcohol to make sure their was no dirt in there that could compromise contact, which can be picked up easier if there is grease and oil.
Those holes and tips usually get filled with black schmutz after some run time.
Thanks a lot Mattyjoe! I have 9 Athearn Genesis locomotives of recent years make, all F7 H0 diesels, and over half of them have this squeaking problem which has been driving me nuts.I tried your advice on one of them today and after a bit of grease and running afterwards the squeaking is gone, which is great.
So I can definitely confirm the problem and the solution.
Thanks again!