First off Micro Sol dose not do the job. These are very old decals that are not sealed down like they should. My old cars with bad decals are not around anymore so I can't experiment like I would like to. I found one old decal on a scrap peice of wood and tried Tamiya extra thin and it seemed to work but can't tell for sure as it is too small. Any ideas, can't just replace the decals.
I use Walthers solvaset. Usually have good results.
I have had "troublesome" decals before, and out of desperation used liquid cement lightly spread over the decal. It worked, but I hesitate to tell you that's the way to go. It's kinda like a hail Mary pass in the last moments of a football game.
If you chose to use liquid cement, TEST FIRST!!
Once you use it, there's no going back! If you use too much you could strip the paint off of your model. Go lightly !
(I used Tenex liquid cement, but Testors would be just as good.)
Rust...... It's a good thing !
What kind of texture does the wood surface have (Board & Batten, Clap Board, Scribed)?
Is the wood surface sealed with future floor finish?
What problem are you having (Silver Edge, Air Bubbles Underneath, Long Unsettled Lines)?
How think is the decal film? Are these old thick decals like Jac-O-Lac, or is it just stiff?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I’ve found that some water slide decal paper just won’t shrink down over details. The best overall liquid to make decals set properly for me is Walthers Solvaset. If it doesn’t work it’s new decal time.I lucked out several years ago when I placed an order for decal paper they double shipped the order so I ended up with 100 sheets of very good quality decal paper. When I say I lucked out the company is no longer in business so I still have a good supply of decal paper, as Kevin would say “a life time supply”. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
It might be time to learn the skills of making your own decals. When I find a decal sheet in an old kit, I usually scan it just in case. Then I have a source that I can use to make my own decals.
I use a home inkjet printer. It works well enough for what I do. Sometime, I'd like to bring a couple of sheets of laser decal paper into an office place that does printing to see how that would work.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
The decals are already on the car, put on by someone long ago. They did a great job on the build but the setting solutions were probly not around when it was built. It is scribed real wood and it is one of those, if I don't do something, they will flake off at some point. Replacement is not an option as it is an Ambroid container car for NYC.
I think in your case I would try to seal it with Testors Dullcote. Cut a hole in a piece of paper the size of the decal then a light spray. I’ve done that on cars with windows and had very good luck. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
LastspikemikeMicro sol is very mild and that's why it's so easy to use.
Micro-Set is the one that is very mild. Micro-Sol is much stronger.
RR_Mel When I say I lucked out the company is no longer in business so I still have a good supply of decal paper, as Kevin would say “a life time supply”.
The way more and more products are becoming hard to get ahold of, lifetime supplies are the way to go!
rrebellThe decals are already on the car, put on by someone long ago. They did a great job on the build but the setting solutions were probly not around when it was built. It is scribed real wood and it is one of those, if I don't do something, they will flake off at some point. Replacement is not an option as it is an Ambroid container car for NYC.
This is a difficult situation to be sure, and one I have never dealt with.
IF... I had to try this... I would use Daco Strong (needs to be ordered from Europe, so that is another problem) on the decal, and let it sit for 24 hours without touching it. This will set the decal probably as much as possible without resorting to liquid model cement.
Then, if it is still not satisfactory, which is very likely, I would scribe the decal with a brand-new #11 blade and coat with Daco Strong again. This time after the solution had softened the decal, I would pick it with a sharp pin to help the decal solution get under the decal.
Let it dry for 24 hours again.
Then, if it is still not satisfactory, which is very likely, I would apply a thin layer of plastic model cement and let it sit for another 24 hours.
Then, if it is still not satisfactory, which is very likely, I would try to touch up whatever is left of the decal with model paint and a fine brush.
I would give all of this about a 10% chance of success. It is up to you if the risk is worth it.
Similar to Kevin's suggestion, I would use a new blade to slice the decal along the scribed lines of the car's wood siding - keep the blade as close to parallel with the car's side as is possible as you work, to lessen the chance of tearing or lifting-off parts of the decal.When you've done one side of the car, apply a strong decal-setting solution, such as Solvaset or the Daco Strong which Kevin mentions, and let it sit until it's dry. You may need to make further applications to get everything settled into place before turning the car over to do the other side.
If the decals have already been oversprayed with a clear finish, you may not get satisfactory results.The most difficult decals with which I've worked were MicroMark's rivet decals, where even Solvaset had little effect. I finally turned to using MEK, and found that a very light and quick pass with a small brushload of MEK worked well in most instances. However, a second pass to deal with areas that didn't settle resulted in removal or relocation of most of the rivets. It may work to settle your decals if they've been oversprayed with a clear finish, but I can't say for certain that it will work - make a small test on an inconspicuous area, if possible.
Wayne
doctorwayneThe most difficult decals with which I've worked were MicroMark's rivet decals, where even Solvaset had little effect. I finally turned to using MEK, and found that a very light and quick pass with a small brushload of MEK worked well in most instances.
My experience with those wonderful rivet decals has been similar.
I used plastic model cement, which I think is mostly MEK.
LastspikemikeMicro set (blue bottle) is not intended to soften decals. It is to help float the decal to where you want it.
Ok, the glue works fine as long as you do it carefully in multiple coats, if you don't allow enough dry time you can lose a letter. Experimented on one of the containers, damage will never be noticed and no effect on paint.
LastspikemikeMicro set doesn't soften decals, in real life. Or at least not the ones I've been using.
Well, I am extremely experienced in decal application, and would go so far as to declare myself an expert. I have custom painted and decalled hundreds of freight cars including the entire current 150 plus unit Fleet of Nonsense.
And... I have shared pictures of ALL of them.
I have built dozens of military models, hundreds of wargaming models, and countless fingernails on the daughters. All of this has been done with decals.
I have applied decals by Microscale, Rail Graphics, Don Manlick, Cartograf, K4, Oddball, Herald King, Citadel, Tamiya, and so on.
I know how all the decal setting solutions work and I learned it all through experience and experimentation. I get successful results with my techniques.
I am going to ask you again to stop posting replies where you have no idea what you are talking about. It is tiresome, so please quit it. You are still continuing to spread incorrect information.
Decalling model railroad items is relatively easy in the world of model building, and you have not even figured out how to get Micro-Set to work as intended.
This was difficult... You are looking at hundreds of tiny decals custom cut and applied.
This unit won Best Painted Fantasy Regiment at Necronomicon 2012 and Historicon 2013, and there are over 800 individual tiny decals used to decorate it, but what would I know about applying decals?
This one won the other award at Necronomicon, but only 10 decals, it was all brush painted. I am an expert at that too.
Arguments about decal set are likely moot for this question, which is about aged decal film applied without setting. To me there are two issues:
(1) the decal film is old and brittle, possibly under coatings that are also old and brittle but that has not been established;
(2) the adhesive under the decal film is improperly adhered or aged and is no longer sticking the aged and brittle film properly.
So the solution as it seems to me is to restore what flexibility is possible (or a reinforcing layer over the film that will adhere to it and keep the pieces in place if it flakes) and THEN get new adhesive distributed under the old film to adhere the whole shebang tightly and without silvering or voids -- this probably requiring the flexibility of step (1) or else enough 'build' to fill the loose areas by capillary action with something that dries hard and clear.
Solutions that optimize these are likely the 'best' solution (like the first law of consulting, there's no guarantee the 'best' solution will be a 'good' solution). But I would NOT go incising an old fragile film before getting (1) reasonably accomplished, or topcoating the film so it won't disintegrate.
OvermodArguments about decal set are likely moot for this question, which is about aged decal film applied without setting. To me there are two issues:
Then why doesn't someone ask a question about how to deal with old decals instead of declaring a commonly used high quality product does not work as intended?
People that need information should ask questions instead of displaying their inexperience as good technique.
There are plenty of us here that can get good results and are willing to help with accurate information.
I decorated this VIRGINIAN AND OHIO boxcar with a set of decals that was brittel, stiff, and almost 50 years old.
But again, what would I know about any of this?
LastspikemikeI too have extensive experience placing decals
Yet we never see it.
I have shared all of mine. It is time for the "expert in everything" to put some proof into his pudding.
Another set of 50 year old decals from Whit Tower's collection I purchased:
LastspikemikeMy ego requires no further boosting and would be impervious to criticism.
I have never critcized a picture another modeler has shared of their work.
I always post compliments and encouragement when efforts are shared.
Posting pictures is easy, I am sure many here would help you if needed.
You can email me the pictures, and I will post them. I have done that for a few people.
SeeYou190Then why doesn't someone ask a question about how to deal with old decals instead of declaring a commonly used high quality product does not work as intended?
Sometimes people don't know how to ask the right questions; sometimes they try to jump closer to the situation by saying what they have tried that didn't work (or work well enough). Someone in the emergency room complaining of chest pain who says stimulants didn't help him should not be accused of not knowing the differential diagnosis for myocardial infarction... especially if they are a bit worked up over having the problem...
At least I think we now know mto ask the full question in the first post instead of being Tom Wolfe's test pilot who gets 'I've tried A; I've tried B' over the radio ASAP before buying the harp farm...
Can we recap by listing the right procedure, step-by-step, for old tired decal film that is 'delaminating' from its substrate? Kevin has given us a good example of laying brittle old decals down 'new' -- and I'd like to see him recap the steps he used, and the cautions associated with them. (In particular, although this only peripherally affects the OP's issues, what does he recommend to hold these down when the original decal adhesive is likely deteriorated.)
rrebellOk, the glue works fine as long as you do it carefully in multiple coats, if you don't allow enough dry time you can lose a letter. Experimented on one of the containers, damage will never be noticed and no effect on paint.
Sorry, with all the dust flying around I missed this response.
I am glad that you found something that worked... on the first try no less!
We need a hand-clapping emoji!
OvermodThat's not what he said. He said it didn't work for his situation
What was stated was...
Which is false, according to the Microscale web site, my experience, and a history of printed how-to information.
It is misleading to newcomers and damages Micro-Scales status as a quality manufacturer.
Sorry, I thought you were referring to the OP leading his post by saying Micro-Sol didn't work in this situation for him. (I did surmise from that that Micro-Set would be even less likely to work for him, but that follows whether or not Micro-Set improves flexibility as noted).
Hey with all this bickering going on, if something would work even better, I am all ears as I don't know if I want to do this on the car body, it might not work every time and there is the longevity factor too, unknown.
rrebell if something would work even better, I am all ears
You have already had greater success than I would dare to have predicted.
Longevity should not be an issue once all the solvents have fully dried.
I would seal the model with a coat of glosscoat followed by a coat of dullcoat, but that is my standard method and not special to your situation.
Now that we are on page 2, hopefully all the turmoil will settle.