I actually don't like the looks of the #58. The compromise they made to make it couple with the old style head makes the knuckle stick way too far out.And with my eyes, uncoupling them manually is no fun.
I bought one pack and went back to #5s.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Shock ControlI wanted to replace some broken steps on some freight cars. The scale steps are so thin and tiny that I may as well leave the car as-is.
A-Line stirrups (AKA sill steps) are the only good option I have found.
I wish I would have begun using them three years ago.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I wanted to replace some broken steps on some freight cars. The scale steps are so thin and tiny that I may as well leave the car as-is.
ATLANTIC CENTRALTom, I should have been a little more clear about one thing, while the original head does work better in my experience, the worst situation is coupling a semi scale head to and original, it is just not that same smooth "click" you get when both couplers are the same head, semi scale or original. And, here it comes, I am not replacing 800 pairs of Kadee couplers that I have purchased and installed over these last 50 years. Especially considering the other issues of slack and gathering range. So ALL the couplers on the layout need to be the same......... Sheldon
And, here it comes, I am not replacing 800 pairs of Kadee couplers that I have purchased and installed over these last 50 years. Especially considering the other issues of slack and gathering range.
So ALL the couplers on the layout need to be the same.........
Sheldon
And I totally get that, Sheldon. My plan is to eventually switch out the few remaining Kadee #5s for #58s/#158s so everything is consistent.
And while I can't really do anything about the NEM-shank coupler on my Trix 2-8-2 Mikes, it couples fine to the #58s/#158s and I've experienced no uncoupling issues between the two.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Pruitt I have a mix of the #5's and #58's and have no problems at all switching cars. I don't use magnets; I use a small screwdriver or a skewer to uncouple instead. Occasionally I have to align the couplers to mate up, but that's just prototypical. The real railroads frequently do that too. I don't worry about coupling force. If I have to hold a car in position to get the couplers to mate it's no big deal. That's just the difference between physics of the model and physics of the prototype (which generally works very much in our favor, but not here). So I like the smaller head of the semi-scale couplers, just like I like the smaller flange of the semi-scale wheels. Both work well enough on my layout, and they provide a better look to the cars that have them.
I have a mix of the #5's and #58's and have no problems at all switching cars. I don't use magnets; I use a small screwdriver or a skewer to uncouple instead.
Occasionally I have to align the couplers to mate up, but that's just prototypical. The real railroads frequently do that too.
I don't worry about coupling force. If I have to hold a car in position to get the couplers to mate it's no big deal. That's just the difference between physics of the model and physics of the prototype (which generally works very much in our favor, but not here).
So I like the smaller head of the semi-scale couplers, just like I like the smaller flange of the semi-scale wheels. Both work well enough on my layout, and they provide a better look to the cars that have them.
And you understand those limitations and don't mind them. I have trackage where I am not always close enough to easily line up miss aligned couplers, or hold cars still,, so the gathering range issue is a factor. I understand that for many it is not a problem.
tstage ATLANTIC CENTRAL Like Kevin described earlier, even with my free rolling trucks, with the original head coupler I can often couple two cars without jolting or even moving the stationary car at all. And I have that fine of speed control even in DC........ In my tests I have never been able to do that with semi scale couplers or with a mix of each. Sheldon, I'm not sure why you and Kevin have difficulty coupling to semi-scale couplers. I can get them to *click* together softly during slow-speed switching and you hardly tell that it's made a connection. But I don't switch or pull 35-45 car trains. Tom
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Like Kevin described earlier, even with my free rolling trucks, with the original head coupler I can often couple two cars without jolting or even moving the stationary car at all. And I have that fine of speed control even in DC........ In my tests I have never been able to do that with semi scale couplers or with a mix of each.
In my tests I have never been able to do that with semi scale couplers or with a mix of each.
Sheldon,
I'm not sure why you and Kevin have difficulty coupling to semi-scale couplers. I can get them to *click* together softly during slow-speed switching and you hardly tell that it's made a connection. But I don't switch or pull 35-45 car trains.
Tom, I should have been a little more clear about one thing, while the original head does work better in my experience, the worst situation is coupling a semi scale head to and original, it is just not that same smooth "click" you get when both couplers are the same head, semi scale or original.
SeeYou190...and (to my eye) kind of funny looking.
Well, I guess it's whatever you're used to, Kevin. The important thing is that it meets your modeling needs.
tstage Kevin have difficulty coupling to semi-scale couplers.
Difficulty is not the right word. They work just fine.
They are just a small bit more fiddly, marginally more difficult to couple, slightly less tolerable of changes in elevation, and (to my eye) kind of funny looking.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
ATLANTIC CENTRALLike Kevin described earlier, even with my free rolling trucks, with the original head coupler I can often couple two cars without jolting or even moving the stationary car at all. And I have that fine of speed control even in DC........ In my tests I have never been able to do that with semi scale couplers or with a mix of each.
tstage I really like the semi-scale couplers. I have installed Kadee #58s/#158s on nearly all (95% and >) of my locomotives and rolling stock and I have not experienced coupling or uncoupling issues with any of them. And the few stragglers (e.g. #5s, NEM-shank) work just fine with them. The only time I have ever had a coupling issue was due to a missing coupler spring, which happens from time-to-time. Tom
I really like the semi-scale couplers. I have installed Kadee #58s/#158s on nearly all (95% and >) of my locomotives and rolling stock and I have not experienced coupling or uncoupling issues with any of them. And the few stragglers (e.g. #5s, NEM-shank) work just fine with them.
The only time I have ever had a coupling issue was due to a missing coupler spring, which happens from time-to-time.
Tom, I'm not saying the semi scale couplers don't work fine, just that the original coupler works a little better. And that this minor difference amplifies itself with longer trains on larger layouts.
NMRA track standards do work best with code 110 wheels and couplers of adequate gathering range.
It is also effected by each persons layout design and operating goals.
Most of my switching trackage will be near the layout edge, but reliable easy coupling of cars "deeper" in the layout is necessary and important for me.
I did considerable testing years ago of couplers, trucks, rolling properties, curve radius, etc.
That is how I arrived at what many consider my wildly conservative standards.
36" minimum mainline radius with easements
#6 turnouts even in yards
No long rigid wheelbase steam locos - nothing over 21 scale feet.
Few 80' passenger cars, no 85' passenger cars, mostly 72' or less.
Touching and working diaphragms on all passenger cars and cab unit diesels.
No code 88 wheels to 'fall" into frogs.
No semi scale couplers.
Mostly sprung/equalized trucks with metal wheels, especially on freight cars which run in long heavy trains of 50 or more cars.
The goal being the most reliable possible operation of a moderately large layout with over thirty staged trains, many over 35-45 cars long.
Like Kevin, operational reliability takes presidence over appearance.
Like Kevin described earlier, even with my free rolling trucks, with the original head coupler I can often couple two cars without jolting or even moving the stationary car at all. And I have that fine of speed control even in DC........
If one is building a small switching layout, or any layout theme with a more "intimate" relationship with the train, their perspective on these issues will likely be different, I get that.
I'm building more the arms length big picture view.....
ATLANTIC CENTRALNo generic couplers of any brand here on the ATLANTIC CENTRAL, and no semi scale couplers.
The Kadee factory assembled undecorated hopper cars and covered hopper cars are only available with semi scale couplers. These are in a unique coupler box, and there is not a practical way to change them to a different Kadee coupler box. The shanks on these couplers are different that any coupler sold over the counter.
I wrote to Kadee and explained to them I wanted Big-Head couplers on these cars.
Sam replied to me and said they could supply the preferred couplers to me directly.
They satisfied their customer's needs without trying to steer me to something I did not want or try to change my mind.
That is how to win a customer for life.
A+ to Kadee and Sam!
Shock ControlIf you are doing something very large or very small, changes to scale are necessary when you want something to look right. Go ask Micehelangelo.
I have tried to point this out in the past.
It is interesting... following an artist's concept for perceived size works when viewing to overall layout. However, in detailed photography, which I also enjoy, anything out of scale looks wrong.
We could go on and on about how the eye perceives things, but the camera is an unforgiving devil.
If you are doing something very large or very small, changes to scale are necessary when you want something to look right. Go ask Micehelangelo.
I don't fret over details like this.
Lastspikemike The more scale sized couplers on Athearn equipment are definitely inferior to other brands. The whisker style Kadees are definitely a better design than earlier Kadee springs. If the whisker coupler isn't working properly chances are either you trapped a whisker in the side of a coupler box or you fit the coupler into the wrong box.
The more scale sized couplers on Athearn equipment are definitely inferior to other brands.
The whisker style Kadees are definitely a better design than earlier Kadee springs.
If the whisker coupler isn't working properly chances are either you trapped a whisker in the side of a coupler box or you fit the coupler into the wrong box.
No kidding, ALL the generic knockoffs are inferior to real Kadee couplers.
I change every coupler on every piece of equipment to genuine Kadee.
By virture of the compromises necessary to make it smaller but still compatible with the orignal regular head Kadee coupler, the semi scale Kadee coupler:
Requires more coupling force, especially coupling to the regular head coupler.
Whiler smaller overall, it has ugly, incorrect overall proportions.
It has more slack by a very small measure, which adds up in the 50 car trains I pull.
And, by virtue of being smaller, it has a smaller gathering range which can also be a problem at times.
No generic couplers of any brand here on the ATLANTIC CENTRAL, and no semi scale couplers.
MisterBeasleyI generally use the old style springs, not the slightly newer whisker couplers. Does anyone notice a performance difference between those? To me, it feels like the whiskers are looser in the coupler box, and exhibit easier lateral motion, besides not centering as well.
I have about a 50/50 mix of the "bent box" coupler springs and the whisker couplers. I have a lot of 20 series couplers, and these all use the bent box spring.
As far as operation goes, I do not notice any difference from one to another. The bent box springs are definitely stronger. If you lay a car on its side with whisker couplers, the coupler will drift to the side, a bent box coupler spring will not. When the car is on its wheels, both styles center just fine for me.
NOTE: At least 95% of my Kadee couplers are installed in genuine Kadee coupler boxes. I do this if at all possible. I can assure you that Kadee couplers perform best in Kadee coupler boxes. This might be why my bent box coupler springs perform better for me than they do for others.
csxns I run the #5 and the scale ones and they work good on my trains.
I run the #5 and the scale ones and they work good on my trains.
Do you do much switching?
For what it's worth, none of my troubles were caused by coupler height or trip pin problems. They just didn't seem to like holding on to one another.
Charlie
Paul3 I have not noticed that semi-scale Kadees take more force to couple but then the cars on our club layout are not all the best rolling cars. Metal wheels are required, but the trucks and their friction are all over the map. The rule in our club is that freight cars must roll down a 4% grade unassisted, and yes, some cars fail that. So when stiff rolling cars are somewhat common, the extra force to me is unnoticable.
I have not noticed that semi-scale Kadees take more force to couple but then the cars on our club layout are not all the best rolling cars. Metal wheels are required, but the trucks and their friction are all over the map. The rule in our club is that freight cars must roll down a 4% grade unassisted, and yes, some cars fail that. So when stiff rolling cars are somewhat common, the extra force to me is unnoticable.
And there you have the answer. With my very free rolling but NMRA weighted cars you can tell the difference, just like Kevin describes above.
In my testing of the scale couplers I had no issues with unwanted uncoupling.
I did conclude they seem to have more slack than the regular head coupler, a concession to being designed to couple with the regular head coupler. A condition obvious with long trains.
I too like the whisker couplers and have had no issues with them.
Most of my freight equipment has Kadee sprung metal trucks refitted with Intermountain wheelsets. Very solid, yet very free rolling, very good tracking.
I don't use code 88 wheels either........
ATLANTIC CENTRALKadee semi scale couplers can require more force to couple than the original coupler.
Great point. I did not get into detail with my response about what I did not like about Kadee semi-scale couplers.
With a big-head coupler, it takes almost no force to couple two cars together. A switcher can creep up on a single freight car and gently couple to it.
Also, the big-head couplers seem to have more flexibility knuckle-to-knuckle than the semi scale couplers do.
I do run shorter trains on smaller radius curves than most.
-Kefvin
I've never, ever had a problem with a Kadee semi-scale coupler that wasn't caused by improper installation. If you have them at the right height (both the coupler and the hose), then they work great.
My experience is at a large model railroad club where we have over 2000 cars on the roster and over 500 of which are currently on the layout. Each car is inspected during registration, and they all have to fit in a "Go-No Go" gauge (which is two metal bars set up over the track). If it fits through the gauge, it's the right height.Whisker couplers have also proved to be extremely reliable, certainly more so than the old #5 box spring. In my 30 years at my club, the number of times I've had to replace a box spring is simply countless. Hundreds of times, easily. The only issue with a whisker is making sure the whisker wire isn't trapped in the box lid or hung up on a burr on the lip of a coupler box. Once installed and working, I've never had to replace a whisker. It just doesn't happen.
Thanks for the input, guys. Perhaps I shouldn't keep trying to run 60 car freight trains even though I got away with it for years.
SeeYou190 Hello Charlie: I also am not 100% satisfied with the Kadee "scale size" couplers. I am more than willing to sacrifice appearance on three things for better operations: Wheels, Couplers, and Trackage. I insist on 100% performance from these, and the Kadee "scale Size" coupler is not an improvement over 5, 20 series, or 30 series couplers. -Kevin
Hello Charlie:
I also am not 100% satisfied with the Kadee "scale size" couplers.
I am more than willing to sacrifice appearance on three things for better operations: Wheels, Couplers, and Trackage. I insist on 100% performance from these, and the Kadee "scale Size" coupler is not an improvement over 5, 20 series, or 30 series couplers.
Agreed 100%
charlie9 I am not intending to trash any product or start a rant, but I seem to have a problem with "scale size" couplers. For decades I have used the old dependable Kadee #5's. Now I see many of the newer HO scale cars come equipped with the smaller couplers. I must admit they do look nice. However, on my layout they don't seem to play well with the older oversized number 5's I have on most of my equipment. They are less likely to uncouple dependably over magnets and I get a lot more false uncouplings than I ever did in the past. That almost always occurs with slack run in and when the smaller coupler is coupled to a larger, old style. Perhaps the people who assemble these things are not as particular as I am and I doubt if they get tested before the cars are packaged. Has anyone out there noticed this problem besides me? If so, what if anything did you do to help cure it? Charlie (grouchy German)
I am not intending to trash any product or start a rant, but I seem to have a problem with "scale size" couplers. For decades I have used the old dependable Kadee #5's. Now I see many of the newer HO scale cars come equipped with the smaller couplers. I must admit they do look nice. However, on my layout they don't seem to play well with the older oversized number 5's I have on most of my equipment.
They are less likely to uncouple dependably over magnets and I get a lot more false uncouplings than I ever did in the past. That almost always occurs with slack run in and when the smaller coupler is coupled to a larger, old style.
Perhaps the people who assemble these things are not as particular as I am and I doubt if they get tested before the cars are packaged. Has anyone out there noticed this problem besides me? If so, what if anything did you do to help cure it?
Charlie (grouchy German)
Just minutes ago I posted this in response to your comments in the metal wheel thread.
This is actually a problem with Kadee semi scale couplers, they can require more force to couple than the original coupler.
And they require even more force when you mix the semi scale head with a regular head coupler.
That's why I do not use semi scale couplers.
But I would never give up my metal wheels in my sprung/equlaized trucks.
I had the same problem on my layout, that the scale sized couplers did not work well with the number 5s. Took me a while but I got rid of the scale heads. I like the #148 couplers thee built in springs. None of the kadee clones worked for me well enough to keep them around either.
Mike
I use the scale #58 couplers when I replace any plastic couplers or when I am building a kit. Over a few years, I have a pretty good mixture of #5s and #58s. I am very fussy about getting the height set correctly and having the trip pins just right, and I'm almost fanatic about having my trackwork as perfect as possible. Basically, I don't have derailments and I don't have uncoupling problems, either.
I generally use the old style springs, not the slightly newer whisker couplers. Does anyone notice a performance difference between those? To me, it feels like the whiskers are looser in the coupler box, and exhibit easier lateral motion, besides not centering as well.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Well guys I’m super happy with my Kadee Scale Couplers. I love them!! I haven’t had any problem coupling or uncoupling with either the scale couplers or the non scale couplers. I’ve completed two complete passenger trains and working on my third.I had problem with the #5s on my passenger cars occasionally uncoupling on my helix and went to regular scale shelf couplers then accidently ordered a 25 pr package of scale shelf coupler and they work great.I use the regular scale couplers on my freight cars and all of my regular run locomotive now have scale couplers. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Russell