Hello everyone,
I'm just wondering what people's opinions are on train simulators.
My personal opinion is that simulators are excellent for those of us who might not have the resources to build a layout. I fall into this group. For me, it's also proven to be a great planning tool, as well as when I was starting with ops and needed to get my head around it without ruining an actual ops session.
Feel free to disagree, just please keep it respectful.
Thanks,
Victoria
Pennsy_I1I'm just wondering what people's opinions are on train simulators.
No thanks.
What gets me is, people that are "into it" this, post these cartoon like videos, thinking we are all amazed.
Do what you can Victoria, and what makes you happy. Last time I checked, it's still a free world, but I'm not sure how long that will last.
Mike.
My You Tube
While I personally am not into virtual model railroading, I do understand why some people find it preferable. Being able to build an unlimited sized world, not requiring additional money, and being super portable.
Many of my fellow college railroad club friends choose to do this since they dont feel like transporting physical models back and forth between campus and home.
I understand their urges, but to me virtual model railroading seems more like a game and less an artform per se. Both are very good hobbys!
Charles
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Modeling the Santa Fe & Pennsylvania in HO
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLb3FRqukolAtnD1khrb6lQ
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
I tried a simulator years ago where you are the engineer of the train. I found it boring. I played Railroad Tycoon (the first one) for many hours and really liked it. I also have a Lionel simulator that presents you with toy track layouts (graphically on the floor) and switching problems that I really liked also. So I guess it depends on what interests you.
However, for me, none of these were the same as having an actual model railroad.
One thing to consider is a micro layout. The late Carl Arendt championed these and his site has been preserved here.
Paul
IRONROOSTER I tried a simulator years ago where you are the engineer of the train. I found it boring. I played Railroad Tycoon (the first one) for many hours and really liked it. I also have a Lionel simulator that presents you with toy track layouts (graphically on the floor) and switching problems that I really liked also. So I guess it depends on what interests you. However, for me, none of these were the same as having an actual model railroad. One thing to consider is a micro layout. The late Carl Arendt championed these and his site has been preserved here. Paul
I suppose a micro layout is enough for someone who mainly enjoys switching. For me at least, I'm more drawn to mainline operation.
Of course, you're right that any simulator isn't the same as an actual layout. At least in my experience, however, it does provide an easy tool to test operations with different track arrangements and to come up with basic guidelines for building that actual layout. IMO, it's better to test track arrangements in a computer than to build it then realize you screwed up. Planning on paper is nice, but it doesn't give you the freedom to easily test operations.
Measure twice, cut once.
Pennsy_I1 IMO, it's better to test track arrangements in a computer than to build it then realize you screwed up. Planning on paper is nice, but it doesn't give you the freedom to easily test operations. Measure twice, cut once.
Hi Victoria,
I totally agree! Do what you can to enjoy the hobby, and pay no heed to the critics! I 'played' with 3rd PlanIt for years and I enjoyed every minute of it. Some of the early plans that I worked with were not realistic, but I have used the program to design two very functional layouts, one for my old club which is working successfully, and the second for my own layout which is under construction.
It took me 14 years to figure out how to build a layout that accommodates my back problems but I have finally solved the problem! My initial track plan has undergone many revisions but now I have something that I feel will suit my needs, thanks largely to a lot of valuable input from fellow forum members. The key to the whole process was 3rd PlanIt.
My point is that you should enjoy whatever you are doing in the way of modelling! You don't need anyone's permission to enjoy the hobby!
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Pennsy_I1"Is virtual railroading also model railroading?".
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
We actually live in a world where modeling and simulation are converging. With cameras getting smaller and processing faster, it won't be long that a nose cam becomes standard equipment on high-end locos. It's output will offer a "skin" that can put the operator visually in the engineer's seat in the cab, with a view of a proto-specific run that will project as the view from the windshield. The view will be selectively defeatable to allow the layout's scenery a chance to fill in where present and acceptably life-like.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I don't know.
There have been times when I had an operational layout that people told me I was not a Model Railroader because I was freelancing.
I try to avoid topics about what makes someone a Model Railroader, but... if these computer simulators require you to build something, even a virtual something... maybe?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Is virtual railroading also model railroading?
there is certainly a large overlap: trains need to be controlled, possibly following signals, controling turnouts, switching cars, operation
having worked on enabling remote operation at our club, i've wondered why not have a virtual layout that is controlled using the computer screens we use to follow the train and wifi throttle to control it.
but as someone (an EE) more interested in technical side of the hobby: electronics, software, wiring and control, i've tried polling people for what aspects of the hobby interest them most and found that most model railroaders are interested in building models.
i think it is one of the many niches within the model railroad hobby
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
IMO, it's best practice to use terms which communicate what you are doing. Model Railroading communicates physical model trains, for display or for running/operatoins. Simulations are typically computer generated simulatoins of airplane flight or trains operations on a computer screen.
So if you want people to understand what you are talking about, it's more clear to use terms people will understand. So from that standpoint, I'd say no, virtual railroading is not model railroading, it is railroad sim or simulation.
Now where is my staples button?
/that was easy.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Wargamers have this conversation a lot more often.
Is someone who plays Tanks six hours a day a wargamer?
I do not like these conversations, because they usually degenerate into what is a "real" hobbiest.
As one who was involved with simulators for about 10 years, I do not believe simulators are model railroading, there are points of overlap but a lot of differces also. What I realized is what they do not like is being thought of as a gamer, or that they are playing a game. I found I like working with my hands more than I do working/playing with a sim. all of the sims have limits, just different ones.
Mike
As long as you are enjoying yourself, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
Free advice from Uncle Joe.
I have Microsoft Train Simulator which I found fun but I got tired on some operations and something more. Next I purchased Trainz Simulator 2010 after a few weeks I realized my computer didn't have a nvidia drive. I still didn't but one or finding out how to install in a existing computer. It's been 10 years and I haven't played it. I was going to put G.N.O. Railway in it before I get real models.
I prefer touching my trains. It's more fun than sitting in front of a screen.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
I didn't realize this was going to turn into one of those existential questions about the hobby. I thought folks just wanted some facts.
Here's two more.
Trying to define model railroading by actually building something is a bit dated in the age of RTR everything (almost.) Depending on that as a defining, differentiating factor would seem to exclude about 90% of those in the hobby at this point, putting aside any question of modeling vs simulation overlap angst.
It would seem that very few who've commented so far engage in operations, although that is a pretty strong interest in the hobby right now. It's pretty hard to argue against operations on a model railroad as being a lot like most simulations.
The argument really would be more about how much convergence between the two has already happened rather than whether or not it exists, which it clearly does in several broad areas already.
That said, this is good advice if any of this involves an emotional attachment to a certain identity.
josephbwAs long as you are enjoying yourself, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Free advice from Uncle Joe.
NO WAY!!!!!!
Anyone who can accurately recreate a prototype via modding existing train simulators (such as the map editing functions in Train Simulator/Railworks) deserves some of the street cred of a model railroader since the skills required include:
In addition even those who aren't prototype modeling but using mods to create fictional freelanced routes or even recreating model layouts in the digital world have some overlap with model railroaders. The skills are there, its just the transition from a digital media via coding and asset creation instead of scratchbuilding, kitbashing and painting that causes the art to be represented. I would say the term "modder" or "custom content creator" better accurately represents the digital creators, but it is worth celebrating that many of the base research skills are the same as a model railroaders; especially since the eye for detail research and operation design has to be the same for both projects. Its just trading in the paint brush for bits and bytes. I think many modders and content creators are aspiring model railroaders who due to lack of space or money have embraced the digital medium since its cheaper, and are waiting for a future time when they can invest in a physical model railroad. As for operating pre-made simulator maps and locomotives (like I mostly do myself)... that is more comparable to the operators who visit model railroad op sessions but don't have a model railroad of their own. Again, they might lack the skills that were required to set up the digital or physical railroad; but their operational skills are equally minded towards imitating the real prototype.
I remember the late Linn Westcot who usually tried to be open minded about teh hobby flatly saying that someone who bought everything and just ran it was not a model railroader. But he came from an era which defined and experienced the hobby very differently. And he had his own notions about the meaning of words, and I also recall him saying that a model which had any purchased parts on it was not scratchbuilt regardless of how much of it was in fact scratchbuilt. It was all or nothing in terms of definition. I think he later moderated that viewpoint but not by much.
Is someone a model railroader who has never built a model, has never bought any model, never had a layout whether built or ready made, but nonetheless is an avid and sophisticated and frequent operator on other people's layouts, fully aware of all the complex rules of timetable and train order operation, can act as dispatcher or yardmaster of even the largest and most sophisticated layout, and immediately grasps the car forwarding system being used? I'd say they were railroaders who railroad with models, and thus are model railroaders. Others might differ, and say that railroading with models does not make you a model railraoder, modeling with railroad models makes you a model railroader.
My point, and I do have one, is that it is possible to imagine someone who loves model railroading and is the bestr there is at the operations side of it who themselves has nothing to do with making or even buying models.
I could also imagine someone who designs model train layouts superbly not being themselves a model maker or model builder. Would we allow them to say that model railroading was their hobby, or even their living?
I could further imagine that someone whose sole experience is with "virtual" model railroading gaining quite a bit of knowledge about layout design and practical operations should they ever go into the "nuts and bolts" world of model railroading.
Dave Nelson
Both enjoy railroads but different hobbies.
I'll throw something else in the mix, is a person that inputs some dimensions into a CAD program and hits print on their 3D printer a model builder? 3D printing is capable of making some impressive items for our hobby as is evident on some of the MRR FB sites I visit.
Aspects of most interest are evolving at a tremendous speed due to technology, I think pigeonholing will require more holes. Or, you can just say you are interested in trains and go from there.
I have tried some pretty good virtual reality flying sims and as good as they are, they are not the real thing. The airlines still take their pilots out to put real potholes in real runways just to get the adrenaline flowing.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
CGW103 Both enjoy railroads but different hobbies. Mike
Agree. I do both. My hobby interest is more geared towards operation than model building. Since I don't want to invest the money and time into a large model railroad (although I enjoy planning them in 3rd Planit); I've scaled back the layout to a much more moderate plan.
To satisfy my interest in operation I have the train simulator Run 8. Run 8 is a serious train simulator. You can't design new tracks so you are "limited" to the published areas. But that's huge. The southern California area includes the BNSF from LAUPT to San Bernardino on the old Santa Fe 1st District via Fullerton, Cajon Pass to Barstow, Barstow to Needles and the Sieglman sub to Sieglman AZ, The BNSF from Barstow to Mojave, the UP across Tehachapi Pass from Mojave to Bakersfield, BNSF from Bakersfield to Fresno, UP ex SP Alhambra sub from Mission Tower to West Colton, the UP exSP Colton Cutoff to Mojave, UP from Mojave to Searles, and the Trona Railroad. Two hump yards, Barstow and West Colton are modeled.
The maps aren't compressed. It's a mile by mile recreation with possibly all real world control points included. There are several hundred industries included, many based on actual industries and some fictional (I guess when the developers couldn't find information on the building). The number of hump yard classification tracks are slightly condensed from the actual. There are ove 60 locals that can be operated. The Los Angeles Juntion is included.
The AI generates trains from numerous spawn points. You can configure the types of trains that spawn at each point. AI Manifests can be tagged to industries. In addition to operating the trains and locals, you have to dispatch the AI trains. I've currently got 30 AI trains running in addition to the LAJ local I'm running. Switching industries takes real time. Running the Southwest Chief from LAUPT to Needles takes six hours. The game time can't be accelerated. You select a calendar date and it sets sunrise, sunset, moon, and stars to that specific date.
There is a mult-player mode run by The Depot that organizes operating sessions. I haven't tried that yet.
I encourage anyone interested in operation to visit www.run8studios.com
Ray
Colorado Ray CGW103 Both enjoy railroads but different hobbies. Mike Agree. I do both. My hobby interest is more geared towards operation than model building. Since I don't want to invest the money and time into a large model railroad (although I enjoy planning them in 3rd Planit); I've scaled back the layout to a much more moderate plan. To satisfy my interest in operation I have the train simulator Run 8. Run 8 is a serious train simulator. You can't design new tracks so you are "limited" to the published areas. But that's huge. The southern California area includes the BNSF from LAUPT to San Bernardino on the old Santa Fe 1st District via Fullerton, Cajon Pass to Barstow, Barstow to Needles and the Sieglman sub to Sieglman AZ, The BNSF from Barstow to Mojave, the UP across Tehachapi Pass from Mojave to Bakersfield, BNSF from Bakersfield to Fresno, UP ex SP Alhambra sub from Mission Tower to West Colton, the UP exSP Colton Cutoff to Mojave, UP from Mojave to Searles, and the Trona Railroad. Two hump yards, Barstow and West Colton are modeled. The maps aren't compressed. It's a mile by mile recreation with possibly all real world control points included. There are several hundred industries included, many based on actual industries and some fictional (I guess when the developers couldn't find information on the building). The number of hump yard classification tracks are slightly condensed from the actual. There are ove 60 locals that can be operated. The Los Angeles Juntion is included. The AI generates trains from numerous spawn points. You can configure the types of trains that spawn at each point. AI Manifests can be tagged to industries. In addition to operating the trains and locals, you have to dispatch the AI trains. I've currently got 30 AI trains running in addition to the LAJ local I'm running. Switching industries takes real time. Running the Southwest Chief from LAUPT to Needles takes six hours. The game time can't be accelerated. You select a calendar date and it sets sunrise, sunset, moon, and stars to that specific date. There is a mult-player mode run by The Depot that organizes operating sessions. I haven't tried that yet. I encourage anyone interested in operation to visit www.run8studios.com Ray
I use Trainz, my current version is 2019. I've been wanting to do virtual operating sessions, but I have a hard time finding a good route to do so. To rectify that, I've been working on one myself, a Class I set in northern NJ in 1944-60. Somewhat of a ripoff of the Jersey Central. The basic goal is a diverse and busy operating environment with freight, commuter, and long-distance passenger ops. I'm starting to create my own structures and equipment to get around the copyright restrictions on existing items. Like any 'real' model railroad, it'll never be finished. I hope to get ops sessions going once the track, signals, facilities, and other things necessary for operations.
Other than the program itself, this method of getting my operations fix is free and I can also work on my basement railroad.
BATMAN I'll throw something else in the mix, is a person that inputs some dimensions into a CAD program and hits print on their 3D printer a model builder?
I'll throw something else in the mix, is a person that inputs some dimensions into a CAD program and hits print on their 3D printer a model builder?
There's a little more to it than that. A CAD program is just a tool, not much different than a pencil or a paintbrush. Is a person who scratches a few marks or splats a few globs of goop an artist? Chopin had the same 88 keys as everyone else. Hemingway typed with two fingers.
Is a person who opens a cardboard box from Walthers Cornerstone and assembles a bunch of plastic pieces and parts a model builder? If Walthers had more N Scale cardboard boxes, I wouldn't bother with CAD; too much mental activity involved.
We definitely need more pigeonholes.
Just my opinion, of course.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
I believe it is. You are, after all, creating a virtual 'model' of a railroad (no one says you have to use actual track routes of the prototype - plus the simulation programs simpy can't include every bit of track that ever existed, so others create their favorite prototype - and even set things in different eras - complete with appropriate locos and rolling stock). A 3D computer model is still a model, a representation of the real thing.
It may be boring - because now instead of compressed distances, you are running a train over the real thing. But it also requires knowing how to handle a train, unless you put the settings on the arcade mode. In realistic mode, if you start down a grade and misuse the brakes and run out of air - you're going to keep gaining speed until you crash, just like a real train.
Cartoon like graphics are those stuck with lesser video cards. The original MS Train SImulator was a bit cheesy, a lot cheesy by today's graphical standards, but how long ago was that? The current versions are amazingly realistic looking, and even have moving background objects. Look at flight simulators - on full realism mode, at least one out there is even allowed to count toward some hours for maintaining certain certifications as a licensed pilot! And I watched a video of a guy in the new MS Flight Sim 2020 literally fall out of the sky because he say the ice forming on his windscreen but thought he had icing effects turned off - unfortuiately he didn;t and as his plane iced up it was unable to maintain altitude just liekt he real thing. Today's simulators aren't 1990's simulators.
SO yes, it's model railroading. You are creating a realistic 3D model of a railroad, and operating trains on it. No longer limited to that spare bedroom, you cna build a line stretching coast to coast if you want.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I don't have a pony in this race, so I was not going to respond. But a few things came to me. In another thread someone asked about train collecting vs. model railroading and truthfully there are a lot of collectors who have no layouts, or run few if any trains, but still called model railroaders. Then there is the eternal debate between three rail/toy vs. model railroading. And to be honest, the only "permanant" layout I've had for years is three rail. I've worked on my HO trains, dabbled with a N layout, but nothing permanant.
Then another thing hit me. This is 2020. I have personally and professionally been forced to rethink and adjust my beliefs about "virtual" vs. physical. I'm a pastor and have completely re-evaluated how we handle Communion with online worship. Not trying to take this into the religious conversation - it is similar to the question. 2020 has changed our thoughts on many things. So yes, I believe that virtual railroading is model railroading.
Maybe we should just lump it all together and call it railroad renditioning.
When I go to a train show, I take it all in and enjoy it. Whatever someone's interest is in trains we will have something to talk about if that person happens to be sitting next to you on a long plane ride.
Language is blurred constantly being skewed at warp speed. In this day and age, even the dictionary can't keep up.
I am a railroad renditioner HO scale.
Some great, thoughtful replies here.
I understand there are those who want nothing to do with anything virtual. No one is even suggesting that you need to if you have no interest.
On the other hand, lots of good argument about how things overlap for many of us already. That's up to everyon'e personal comfort level whatever the mix is that works for them.
That said, a couple of particularly strong arguments for these being different sides of the same coin stand out. xboxtravis notes the role of research in creating whatever you choose to do. Randy notes the importance of imagination, something long valued by old school model railroaders, like research, while at the same time being the essential driving force behind the creation of virtual layouts that are unbound from the physical constraints of space that most of us face with hands on modeling.
Others comments have been interesting and helpful contributions, too.
Is virtual railroading model railroading?
No.
Is that a bad thing/does it matter?
Is there overlap?
Maybe.
To me models are physical. Train sims aren't. Physical models and computer simulations are different hobbies but that's ok, and there are also people that enjoy both.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
dknelsonI could further imagine that someone whose sole experience is with "virtual" model railroading gaining quite a bit of knowledge about layout design and practical operations should they ever go into the "nuts and bolts" world of model railroading.
I know more than a few model railroaders that don't know jack about how railroads function. But they enjoy building and watching trains run by.