Hello Everyone,
I'm a newbee looking to get into the hobby. I'm interested in building a layout simular to the Durango & Silverton narrow gauge line. From what I've read, to model this in HO scale, you would need to use N scale track. Is this right? How would HO scale locomotives & cars run on an N scale track?
Thanks,
Don
Don:
I do not do this myself, but from what I have seen at shows, the narrow guage locos and rolling stock is built for that size track.
A standard guage coco will not fir on narrow guage track.
Don,
What you need to model the D&S (and the Rio Grande that came before) on the Silverton Branch is HOn3 track (10.5 mm gauge), which is 3' gauge in 1:1. Micro Engineering makes it in several flavors, weathered and unweathered, and Peco offers it, too. There were some others whio produced it in the past you may find, like Shinohara and PSC.
Using N gauge track for HO is HOn30, which is 9 mm gauge. That's usually used more for industrial lines and to represent 2' gauge prototypes (although it's too wide for that actually, it allows use of N scale mechanisms.)
I model the Silverton Branch in a more modern and busy state.
Some more pics here.
https://imageshack.com/a/0Apl/1
My Durango is dual gauge, as it was briefly a century ago. And I also model the Mears lines that ran north from Silverton to the mines.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
What is HOn30? Simply put, “HOn30″ refers to HO scale models that operate on N scale track. HOn30 has been adopted by model railroaders who use commercially available N scale track products. This gauge is commonly used to represent two-foot gauge railways.
The buildings, people etc are HO scale.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
BuckeyeDonFrom what I've read, to model this in HO scale, you would need to use N scale track. Is this right? How would HO scale locomotives & cars run on an N scale track?
Scale and Gauge are two different things.
Standard gauge in the US, Europe and other places is 4' 8-1/2", or 56-1/2". In some places, like in mountainous areas, it was cheaper/easier to build to a narrower gauge of track. The smaller trains could handle the sharp curves and such easier than full-size standard gauge equipment could. In the US, the most common narrow gauge was 3' or 36" gauge, although there were lines built to 2' gauge and 30" gauge also.
Scale is the size of our models - the trains, buildings, people, automobiles, etc. HO scale is a ratio of 1:87.1, or 3.5mm = 1 foot. That scale is the same whether you're modelling a standard gauge railroad, or narrow gauge.
As it happens, N standard gauge track is about half the width of HO standard gauge, so some folks use that to represent narrow gauge trains - either 30" gauge (HOn30), or as a stand-in for 2' gauge. Similarly, HO standard gauge track is about 30" wide in O (1:48) scale, so some O scalers use HO track when building On30 layouts.
Thanks Mike, Awesome pics and layout! So I would get HOn3 track and the engine, cars, structures and scenery would all be HO?
NorthBrit What is HOn30? Simply put, “HOn30″ refers to HO scale models that operate on N scale track. HOn30 has been adopted by model railroaders who use commercially available N scale track products. This gauge is commonly used to represent two-foot gauge railways. The buildings, people etc are HO scale. David
Just to be clear - the layout in the video you attached is HOn3 not HOn30.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
BuckeyeDonSo I would get HOn3 track and the engine, cars, structures and scenery would all be HO?
HOn3 track, yes. But the locomotives and rolling stock must be HOn3 as well. As pointed out earlier, they are HO SCALE - that means 1/87th of the actual size, but HOn3 (narrow) GAUGE - gauge is the distance between the rails.
Your structures, cars and trucks (road vehicles), people, animals, everything else - would be HO scale.
And don't be further confused by the mention of other narrow gauges. Yes, there are others (in HO scale), but HOn3 is by far the most popular and readily available, at least in the US.
Ed
If the OP wants to run standard gauge equipment, there's nothing wrong with using a little modeler's license and making it dual gauge. Assuming they're comfortable with that.
The D&RGW had quite a bit of dual gauge in various places, often before the inside rail was removed and it was standard-gauged. Alamosa, CO was a good example.
I've never modeled narrow or dual gauge, but I'd think someone makes dual gauge track. If not, my strategy would be to lay the narrow gauge first using standard ties and lay the outer rail next. The biggest issue would probably be switches, but I've seen plenty of kitbashing with those, so building a dual-gauge turnout wouldn't be impossible.
About HOn30, yes, it is used to model two-foot-gauge lines, but there were also prototypes using 30" gauge. Most of these were either small industrial railroads or in the theme park category, according to the info I came across. Outside of the US, this gauge was used for some government-run systems, especially on islands, as well as the typical mining or farming purposes. Interestingly, North Korea has quite a few, but good luck finding any information on these.
Pennsy_I1If the OP wants to run standard gauge equipment, there's nothing wrong with using a little modeler's license and making it dual gauge. Assuming they're comfortable with that.
The OP is a self-proclaimed "newbie". I tried to keep it simple. But you are of course correct.
freeway3 freeway3 wrote the following post 2 hours ago: BuckeyeDon So I would get HOn3 track and the engine, cars, structures and scenery would all be HO? HOn3 track, yes. But the locomotives and rolling stock must be HOn3 as well.
HOn3 track, yes. But the locomotives and rolling stock must be HOn3 as well.
Yes, more or less. Everything is in HO scale, but you have either standard or narrow gauge trucks underneath. This will match your track, being either standard or narrow gauge. With dual gauge, you can run either, just not both in the same space.
Of course, there was some NG equipment that had two sets of trucks, one SG the other NG. Some Rio Grande MOW office cars were this way, as were several rotary snow blowers and at least one wrecking crane (OZ). The RR would swap onto whatever trcuks were needed at the time.
Much older SG equipment is sized so that it could work running on NG. I discuss some options on that here:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/283518.aspx
mlehmanThat's usually used more for industrial lines and to represent 2' gauge prototypes
Actually, 2 foot gauge was the narrow gauge used in Maine from the mid 1800s until the 1930s when the Depression killed them all off. The idea to use 2 foot gauge came when a group of Maine investors visited Wales and saw their 2 footers hauling slate, coal as well as passengers.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
G Paine mlehman That's usually used more for industrial lines and to represent 2' gauge prototypes Actually, 2 foot gauge was the narrow gauge used in Maine from the mid 1800s until the 1930s when the Depression killed them all off. The idea to use 2 foot gauge came when a group of Maine investors visited Wales and saw their 2 footers hauling slate, coal as well as passengers.
mlehman That's usually used more for industrial lines and to represent 2' gauge prototypes
George is more correct here. I was trying to pack too many ideas together, but here's the issues I was tryong to address there.
HOn30 when used for 30" gauge prototypes is accurate, there were just few examples and mostly industrial in the US.
HOn30 is also often used to represent 2' gauge prototypes that were generally common carriers, but isn't accurate for that being 6" too wide. How this affects the looks of a 2' model varies. A boxcar will cover its trucks so that the difference is hard to see, while a steam loco has a lot of exposed undercarriage, so the extra width is harder to hide.
Another factor in how HOn30 ended up being used for 2' gauge prototypes is that actual to scale 2' gauge track leaves very little room for motors and other parts to fit. It can be done, but is a challenge. HOn30 provides enoiugh extra slack to do that more easily, as well as providing a source of RTR track.
From what I've read, to model this in HO scale, you would need to use N scale track. Is this right?
You could use N scale track, but it would not look right. The ties would be too small and too close together. Peco makes track with "N scale" gauge but HO scale ties in their track range of products. N scale track will work fine for hidden trackage.
How would HO scale locomotives & cars run on an N scale track?
Many people use N scale diesel locomotive mechanisms to build HOn30 models. They build larger cabs and walkways onto the N scale models to accomodate HO scale people. How far you go with detailing this is up to you.
For freight cars, I have seen people buy HOn3 resin kits and narrow them just a little to look better in HOn30 track.
Again, the amount of detail and work you put into this is up to you.
I hope this helped.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Oh, and there is the Gilpin railroad in Colorado that had those cool tiny Shays. Upper North, on Anticosti Island near Quebec, there was even a small running "Decauville" that was brought in by the French owner of the Island. So many great excuses to have an HOn30 on a "could have happened" layout.
Here is my version of the Hon30 shay, a 3D print that runs on diesel frame. The gears don't turn, but my eyes don't see the difference at that size!
20190517_215454 on Flickr
Simon
snjroy Oh, and there is the Gilpin railroad in Colorado that had those cool tiny Shays. Upper North, on Anticosti Island near Quebec, there was even a small running "Decauville" that was brought in by the French owner of the Island. So many great excuses to have an HOn30 on a "could have happened" layout. Here is my version of the Hon30 shay, a 3D print that runs on diesel frame. The gears don't turn, but my eyes don't see the difference at that size! 20190517_215454 on Flickr Simon
I've always been fascinated by the Gilpin. Something about those hoppers not much bigger than my desk and the no-frills operations.
HOn3 is more of a serious modeler's niche. Blackstone brought in quite a bit of ready to run equipment HOWEVER they are currently out of production and skyrocketing in price. Other than that you will be confined to brass locomotives and more often than not more craftsman type kits such as Labelle wood kits and Railline plastic kits (Which still require adding grab irons etc.) Track can be a bit of an issue- Peco and micro engineering make flex track and turnouts. Dual gauge was mentioned BUT since Shinohara closed dual gauge turnouts are not made right now. It is not really a beginners situation.
HOn30 or HO scale running on N gauge mechanisms and track was "popularized" by Frary and Haden as a way to model the Maine 2 foot gauge railroads although with a wider track gauge to utilize N scale chassis. Minitrains made a couple of sets that were a ready to run HOn30 (The one below) but they did not run real well and were small industrial equipment. Aside from this again it is a builders scale.
This pic shows a standard gauge 2-8-0 in the back, an HOn3 Colorado and Southern 2-6-0 in the center and a Minitrains HOn30 engine and cars in the front All three of these are the same scale but narrow gauge equipment is smaller.
There is an idea if you are thinking seriously about doing Colorado narrow gauge and wanting more ready to run. There is another option but you will go up in scale. Bachmann makes a line of On30 equipment. (again this is different that On3) On30 is using HO track but is O scale (1/48) While it may seem to possibly suffer from the idea of using a slightly narrower gauged track Bachmann took a different approach. (for a better appearance Peco makes a track with the ties correctly sized and spaced but you can use regular HO track) Their 2-6-0 is modeled after Colorado and Southern #22 and very nice (as long as they are not painting it in those horrible special run things for the Bradford exchange etc market.) They offer it in Rio Grande too although it is not correct per se. They also have a line of plausable although freelanced cars that are certainly closer to 3 foot rather than 2 foot prototypes. Their 4-6-0 is nice too. A layout will take up more room than standard gauge HO as the buildings etc are about twice as big. There is quite a bit availible in terms of buildings and you are using O scale buildings so there is overlap into the Scale O as well as Hi-rail market. On30 will also be considerably cheaper than HOn3 too- check out trainworld and others specials.
Bachman On30 2-6-0
mlehman Yes, more or less. Everything is in HO scale, but you have either standard or narrow gauge trucks underneath. This will match your track, being either standard or narrow gauge. With dual gauge, you can run either, just not both in the same space. Of course, there was some NG equipment that had two sets of trucks, one SG the other NG. Some Rio Grande MOW office cars were this way, as were several rotary snow blowers and at least one wrecking crane (OZ). The RR would swap onto whatever trcuks were needed at the time.
Mike
I found your post fascinating! I ended up doing a 'Railroad Dual Gauge' search and ran across this picture. Click to enlargeNow there is a challenging piece of track work for an enthusiastic model railroader. You can’t even say no prototype for that. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Good one Mel! I just had to look up if someone made an HO/HOn30 track, and apparently Tillig made some. Not like the one shown above - more like the 3 rail approach - but an interesting option for some, like HOn30 Critter Dave...
On30 can be a good choice.
This is the First Coast Modelers On30 sectional layout.
RR_Mel Mike I found your post fascinating! I ended up doing a 'Railroad Dual Gauge' search and ran across this picture. Click to enlargeNow there is a challenging piece of track work for an enthusiastic model railroader. You can’t even say no prototype for that. Mel
I found your post fascinating! I ended up doing a 'Railroad Dual Gauge' search and ran across this picture. Click to enlargeNow there is a challenging piece of track work for an enthusiastic model railroader. You can’t even say no prototype for that. Mel
Oh man that looks like a migraine in action. Typical dual gauge does not lay another set of tracks in the middle- instead it uses a third rail. It will have four rails when it has a draw where it switches the narrow gauge from one side to another. I do have a small section of dual gauge on my layout (sorry this was while I was under construction and ballast still needs to be done)
There were some variations on dual gauge- In Black Hawk Colorado the Colorado and Southern which was 3 foot had dual gauge trackage with the Gilpin Tram which was two foot. There was even triple gauge in a few places- There was a tie plant on the Rio Grande that had Standard gauge, three foot gauge and either 2 foot or 18" gauge. (There were some other instances overseas) I could not find a pic online but I believe "Rio Grande to the Pacific" has a photo of it.
drgwcs RR_Mel Mike I found your post fascinating! I ended up doing a 'Railroad Dual Gauge' search and ran across this picture. Click to enlargeNow there is a challenging piece of track work for an enthusiastic model railroader. You can’t even say no prototype for that. Mel Oh man that looks like a migraine in action. Typical dual gauge does not lay another set of tracks in the middle- instead it uses a third rail. It will have four rails when it has a draw where it switches the narrow gauge from one side to another. I do have a small section of dual gauge on my layout (sorry this was while I was under construction and ballast still needs to be done) There were some variations on dual gauge- In Black Hawk Colorado the Colorado and Southern which was 3 foot had dual gauge trackage with the Gilpin Tram which was two foot. There was even triple gauge in a few places- There was a tie plant on the Rio Grande that had Standard gauge, three foot gauge and either 2 foot or 18" gauge. (There were some other instances overseas) I could not find a pic online but I believe "Rio Grande to the Pacific" has a photo of it.
An instance of dual gauge overseas that came to mind was England's Great Western Railway. They originally used 7'0-1/4" gauge and gradually switched to standard to interchange with other lines. None is left in service, but there is a short section at the Didcot Railway Centre, a museum located next to the former GWR mainline. I'm planning a visit there.
Talk about an S curve, the double gauge double slip in that picture is a dandy. I hadn’t heard of or never paid any attention to the double slip when I designed my layout back in the 80s if I had I would have included one at my wye. I ended up making my own Double Crossover from Atlas turnouts and have been kicking around attempting to make a double slip, doesn’t look promising. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
drgwcs (...) I do have a small section of dual gauge on my layout (sorry this was while I was under construction and ballast still needs to be done) (...)
(...)
I do have a small section of dual gauge on my layout (sorry this was while I was under construction and ballast still needs to be done) (...)
If folks only posted pictures of finished layouts, there would not be a whole lot of pics on this forum!
snjroy drgwcs (...) I do have a small section of dual gauge on my layout (sorry this was while I was under construction and ballast still needs to be done) (...) If folks only posted pictures of finished layouts, there would not be a whole lot of pics on this forum! Simon
True that- I have made a lot of progress since that was taken but still need to ballast......kind of glad that I did not in that section as I needed to replace a turnout. Ballasting in the last thing I do. (To be honest I have too distracted in building Black Hawk on the C&S narrow gauge that I haven't done much on the standard gauge lately besides running it.)
RR_MelI ended up doing a 'Railroad Dual Gauge' search and ran across this picture....Now there is a challenging piece of track work for an enthusiastic model railroader. You can’t even say no prototype for that.
Shinnohara made standard gauge/3 ft gauge dual gauge track including turnouts. Not sure if they are still available.
A video of one of the Western dual gauge railroads showed standad gauge equipment with a second offset coupler so both standard gauge and 3 ft gauge rolling stock could run in the same train. That might be intersting to try modeling
G PaineShinnohara made standard gauge/3 ft gauge dual gauge track including turnouts. Not sure if they are still available.
Probably unobtanium by now. If you come across any old stock is the only way you'll find them, except maybe on ebay.
Keep in mind when ordering dual gauge turnouts that there aren't just two types, right and left, there are four. You have rights and lefts in two variations, depending on which side the 3rd rail is offset to. This is something you'll need to determine in planning and count carefully to achieve what you desire.
While Shinohara is done, custom turnout builders can still make them for you. There is also Fast Tracks, which also offers their line of turnout templates in dual gauge and would be the most economical to use if you're needing more than a few.
G PaineA video of one of the Western dual gauge railroads showed standad gauge equipment with a second offset coupler so both standard gauge and 3 ft gauge rolling stock could run in the same train. That might be intersting to try modeling
BTDT. The offset couplers on a loco work pretty well once you squeeze them in. Here's an install on a Bachmann 44-tonner.
Rio Grande Models produced kits for the Rio Grande's dual gauge idler cars. I built a pair, but their light weight makes them kind of dodgy to operate.
Thank you all for the information. My space is kind of limited for now. I'm thining of doing everything in N scale standard guage. Is that something frowned upon by most modeler's? Also, I'm having a hard time finding old maps on the internet of the Durango & Silverton yards from the 1940's. Anyone have any ideas or links that might be helpfull?
BuckeyeDon,
I think you're referring specifically to modeling Durango here, in standard gauge as you say. Don't worry too much except about pleasing yourself here and you'll have a lot of fun with this idea.
A little more background. The Rio Grande built from the east, running from Alamosa, CO down to Chama, NM, then continuing on to Durango, arriving there in 1881, then quickly continued to Silverton with the branch that survives as the D&S.
Rumors that this line would be standard-gauged continued for years - and never happened except for the very eastern end from Alamosa to Antonito, CO, where dual gauge lasted until the end of NG ops in 1967. A few places had a 3rd rail present until years later along the line, but Antonito became the eastern end of the C&TSRR.
Rumors did play a role in Durango becoming dual gauge for awhile. One was that the Southern Pacific intended to build into the coal lands south of Durango. With standard gauging still on the agenda in Denver at HQ, the Rio Grande got ahead of itself a little and decided to build a standard gauge line from Durango down to the coal fields south of Farmingtin, NM. The intent was that once the Alamosa to Durango line (also known as the Cumbres line after the pass it surmounts near Chama) was standard gauged, it would hook right up to the new SG Farmington Branch. All the locos, cars and other SG equipment were hauled over the NG, assembled in Durango, and operated from there, isolated from the rest of the Rio Grande SG.
The threat to the coal traffic passed. WWI and the economic hard times that followed put an end to the SP threat and the traffic on the Cumbres line never picked up. The end of the SG came in 1923, when the line to Farmington was narrow-gauged.
On my layout, I presume that the need from resources like uranium after WWII caused the line that runs down to Moab from the Rio Grande main to Salt Lake City to instead be extended to Durango thence down to the Santa Fe main at Grants. I wanted to retain the NG, but you could just as easily assume that all the NG was eventually standard gauged, thus justifying doing Durango as SG only.
Keep in mind that the Rio Grande wasn't the only show in town. Durango was also one end of the Rio Grande Southern, which ran (more or less, mostly less) until the early 50s. You could easily write it off any time from 1945 on or even earlier.
A good book for maps is The RGS Story, Vol XI Durango and the Perins Peak Branch by McCoy, Collman, and McLeod (Sundance Books, 2005). It can be a little pricey, but well worth it of you plan to model the town. I'm sure there's others, so will try to think about that and may have some more sources later.
BuckeyeDon Is that something frowned upon by most modeler's?
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."