I'll start off by saying that I don't care for complaining about merchants or producers, so this isn't a hit job on TW, its an observation that I want to share and see if others are experiencing the same issues. And, I like TW a lot and will continue to buy.
But the last 4 out of 6 locos I've purchased this year from TW(I've bought a lot from several merchants, including TW, and I've been very pleased)
have had parts broken off. Handrails snapped in places, antennas bent or broken. And it not a manufacturer issue. Its happenend with several brands. Just last night, a package was opened to reveal a missing windshield wiper and a handrail broken right where it attaches to the cab....not repairable.
And....the packaging is solid. Both from TW and the manufacturers container. It does not appear to be a shipping issue.
Is TW reselling merchandise that others have returned without properly inspecting it?....that maybe previous sellers have mishandled or were previously damaged in shipping? Does TW maybe get factory flawed locos but sells them at non-flawed prices?
It seems like something is going on, and it doesn't not appear to be a TW shipping or handling issue, IMO.
Just wondering if anybody else has noticed a pattern here in 2019 and 2020.
I've had lots of returns back to TW for in-store credit. In fact, this last loco was purchased on credit that was from a return of a loco for the same issues.
- Douglas
I would blame manufactures, bought two of the engines at different times, first was perfect out of box, second had a host of issues but none that were not easily fixed. But still, these two proubly came from the same batch.
rrebell I would blame manufactures, bought two of the engines at different times, first was perfect out of box, second had a host of issues but none that were not easily fixed. But still, these two proubly came from the same batch.
I normally would, but like I said, I've bought a lot this year from various merchants, and they have been fine. Not the same loco or the same batch, but releases within months of each other.
That's why I wondered if TW somehow gets more than its share of factory flawed products in the first place.
I had the same problem a week ago ,sent it back and another is on the way,wish me luck with it.
Train World should inspect all items leaving store.... period!!! When I had my store and that was 40 years ago, we did mail order, and every item that went out was completley checked and the checker signed his name and date of inspection. Both TW and manuafacturers are at fault. Years back Gem imported a C&O J3a 4-8-4 made by Olympia which had issues and most went back to Gem who sent them back to Olympia. Not much was done for repairs and they were repcackaged in a new box with the name Olympia models in the same type face as Gem along with a similar simulated felt box. These models, however were less expensive at $54.95 vs $89.95. Many jumped at the reduced price and got burned including me. You learn from experience. Unfortunately this practice still continues. This is why I do not ship brass models anymore as sometimes it works both ways. I have had a few buyers purchase a model when I was shipping and then claimed it had issues, and send it back for a refund, but what they were sending back was their messed up similar model. I'm winding down from brass sales and will only sell from my studio whereas the buyer can thoroghly test his purchase and leave here knowing the model is in fine shape.
HZ
Are the 4 locos from the same manufacturer?
Were they heavily discounted at TW?
I dont think TW sells defective items intentionally, maybe they the items on sale were defective, or maybe its that one manufac...
Charles
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Modeling the Santa Fe & Pennsylvania in HO
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLb3FRqukolAtnD1khrb6lQ
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I also think that the delivery service is the weak link of this chain. Unless the sender uses a much bigger box with a lot of air bubbles around the package, there is always a risk of damage. I stopped counting the number of articles I received that had damage on them. I'm pretty good at fixing things, so 99% of the time, it's without any serious consequences. But I know many people who do not order anything because of this. It brings more business to our LHS!
Simon
Trainman440 Are the 4 locos from the same manufacturer? Were they heavily discounted at TW? I dont think TW sells defective items intentionally, maybe they the items on sale were defective, or maybe its that one manufac... Charles
All over the place. One was discounted. TW replaced with the same discounted loco which was fine. I've bought discounted locos fromother merchants, and they have been fine too.
I've purchased Athearn, Atlas, and InterMountain. Each producer has had at least one sent back.
I had forgotten, I actually got two in the mail last night. The other one had a broken antennae. Two out of two. Both were flawed, and its not the kind of thing a shipping incident would cause, IMO. So thats about 5 out of 7.
My theory, partly, is that buyers are not the innocent people perpetually taken advantage of by those dastardly businesses. I would not be surprised if some of these locos were originally purchased by ham-fisted buyers who snapped something taking it out of the package, then claimed it was a shipping problem and sent it back. The pattern I have seen suggests that to me.
But I don't know if TW has a resell policy or not.
My son says there are Chinese versions of Amazon that sell factory flawed items really cheaply. I would hope anything returned to TW at least gets put back into that resell market.
At train shows Enginehouse Services of Green Bay WI has a sign that they post: that they inspect every locomotive before selling it and reject and send back somewhere around 15%. Then the sign says "we have no idea what is done with those rejected locomotives" (I paraphrase here but that is the essential point of the message).
There was and perhaps still is a large midwestern hobby shop, which I shall not name, which was known for outrageously low prices for the latest locomotives but also rolling stock and structures - at Trainfest those of us in the know would try to get to the head of the waiting line and when doors opened at 9 am we and a few dozen others would race for where we knew their booth would be (that was back when Trainfest kept the same floor plan year after year, now they mix it up).
There was a wide circulated rumor which I have no reason to disbelieve but cannot verify, that they had "sources" which got them "gray market" packaged trains which had in fact been rejected by someone - the manufacturer/importer itself, distributors, hobby shops, whatever. All I know is, nobody but nobody could touch their prices - or the lines at their booth.
I myself only bought structure kits from them and since I kitbash nearly every structure kit I build I guess I never noticed if there were things missing that should have been there.
Dave Nelson
- -If you shopped at or through your LHS none of this would happen.
My local train store never re-opened after the lockdown, and if I were going to risk virus exposure, it will not be for electric model trains.
Maybe when things get back to normal I will go back to a train store, if I have one, but for now it is mail-order and delivery only.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
DoughlessIs TW reselling merchandise that others have returned without properly inspecting it?....that maybe previous sellers have mishandled or were previously damaged in shipping? Does TW maybe get factory flawed locos but sells them at non-flawed prices?
I personally don't have a clue. However I do note that the large banner sign at the top of the TW website states that they are the "Closeout Kings".
In a similar boat here Kevin. Nearest train store is an hour drive one way away. They also have pretty limited hours, so if I leave as soon as I get out of work, I'll arrive right about the time they are locking their doors. Next nearest one is 1.5 hrs away. Same issue. My saturdays are usually filled with other, dare I say, more important things that have to be done. Mail order for me too.
Mike
maxman Doughless Is TW reselling merchandise that others have returned without properly inspecting it?....that maybe previous sellers have mishandled or were previously damaged in shipping? Does TW maybe get factory flawed locos but sells them at non-flawed prices? I personally don't have a clue. However I do note that the large banner sign at the top of the TW website states that they are the "Closeout Kings".
Doughless Is TW reselling merchandise that others have returned without properly inspecting it?....that maybe previous sellers have mishandled or were previously damaged in shipping? Does TW maybe get factory flawed locos but sells them at non-flawed prices?
Wouldn't think it means "sell broken stuff". And most stuff isn't discounted any deeper than anybody else. But like I said, I'm not blaming TW and I'll continue to buy normally. Just curious if anybody else has noticed and what could be the cause.
LastspikemikeJust shop at your LHS. They know all about all of these problems and their prices reflect the work they do that you don't have to do.
Part of the reason that I shop mail order is that two of the LHS I used to patron wouldn't allow anybody to open the box...including themselves. Said the items are too fragile and packed too tightly to the point where they damaged items themselves in the past taking them out of the packaging.
They allowed returns, and sent anything the customer found to be defective back to the producer.
I figured if I could not look at the item or run it, why not just order online.
I can't imagine a high volume dealer like TW having employees removing every item out of the factory packaging to see if a grab iron or something is missing.
dknelson Then the sign says "we have no idea what is done with those rejected locomotives" (I paraphrase here but that is the essential point of the message).
Then the sign says "we have no idea what is done with those rejected locomotives" (I paraphrase here but that is the essential point of the message).
At least some of them are cannibalized for parts by the manufacturer/importer.
Myself and family have been dealing with Trainworld for decades. I have received many Christmas gifts purchased from them. My problems are with Walther's products starting with 130' TT, freight cars, structures and locomotives. None of the issues I experienced can be blamed on Trainworld. Spanning four decades, Athearn issues amounted to warped trucks on a pair of SD70 locomotives which they promptly replaced years ago. I was able to fix nearly all of the Walthers issues across the board except the early version of the 130' TT which I gave up on. I will continue to buy from Trainworld as LHS in my area are very limited and none can compare to the old AB Charles Hobby Shop. Mr C. as I called him was one of a kind...Rest in Peace!
Keep in mind these engines were made in China, shipped to the US in a shipping container on a seagoing freighter, taken by rail or truck from the US port to the company (Athearn, Atlas, etc.) who then unpacked the container's contents, repacked the items to go to the various retailers, and shipped them via UPS, FedEx, USPS or whoever. Seems like plenty of opportunities for damage before the item gets to the retailer.
SeeYou190 correct they are still closed , I will be suprised if they reopen , word was they wanted to move to the cape so who knows but the new owner is not a huge train guy more of a diorama miltary modeler , hence the new name - - If you shopped at or through your LHS none of this would happen. My local train store never re-opened after the lockdown, and if I were going to risk virus exposure, it will not be for electric model trains. Maybe when things get back to normal I will go back to a train store, if I have one, but for now it is mail-order and delivery only. -Kevin
correct they are still closed , I will be suprised if they reopen ,
word was they wanted to move to the cape so who knows but the new owner is
not a huge train guy more of a diorama miltary modeler , hence
the new name
- - If you shopped at or through your LHS none of this would happen.
Heck, the last new loco I bought, I struggled for a whiel trying to figure out how to get the darn thing out of the box,. Finally realized they ran a screw up fromt he bottom into some holders. Said screw was up insuide a plastic molded part, no screw head visibile. And no "how to open this" instructions were in the box (the operating instructions weren't even correct, they were for a previous run with a different decoder - the functions are the same, but the CV to change horns - not even close between the versions - Atlas take note! They don't even have correct instructions on their web site yet, and it's been more than 2 months - and they've also released more locos witht he newer decoder, which STILL come with incorrect instructions). That one actually came from TW. Who knows what happens along the way (luckily it's not a long trip to me), but I know my local UPS guy doesn't throw packages around when he drops things off. Besides the nearly impenetrable Atlas box (even when intentially trying to get it open - at least now I know and I will be able to open the second one much easier), TW had that packaged in an outer box which had very thick walls, with padding around the factory box. It would have taken some severe handling to damage anything. No parts were missing or loose.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I worked in a USPS sorting facility.Sorting packages is called "throwing packages." This is neither a metaphor nor a euphamism. You stand in the center of roughly a 15' diameter circle of bins, emptying out your cart by literally throwing packages into the bins from six to eight feet away.It is physically impossible to complete the work required in the time allocated without actually throwing the packages.And putting "FRAGILE" on the package just meant that we yelled "Good luck with that!" as we threw the package.2014
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Lastspikemike If you shopped at or through your LHS none of this would happen. It isn't reasonable, let alone cost effective to examine each factory packed model for damage before shipping it AGAIN. Indeed, that would be just a dumb idea. If the distributor opens, checks and repackages then it becomes responsible for any subsequent damage. No sensible business would ever do that if it expected the manufacturer to replace items damaged in transit due to packaging problems. Even your LHS would lose money using that marketing method. At your LHS you can usually at least view one version of a model as a displayed product but then there's the risk of ham handed customers. For NIB product I prefer to buy previously unopened product and your LHS prefers that also for obvious reasons. I usually have the packaging opened and the model taken out and inspected right there with the salespersons assistance. Then we both know who broke it. If it's a locomotive they will test run it for me right there. No obligation to buy. That's called customer service and it isn't supplied for free but these costs are only recoverable if customers actually buy at retail pricing. Frankly, mail order customers are fortunate their suppliers allow returns without question. They must crank in cost recovery to allow for customers who try to return product they themselves have broken. Finally, the Amazon business model is environmentally unsound. All product returned to Amazon is discarded regardless of reason for return and that cost is absorbed by the supplier who sells through Amazon. Then that discarded product is "recycled" by businesses set up just for that purpose. Who knows how and where that like new (or maybe not) recycled product hits the market. The World is steadily going crazy. Just shop at your LHS. They know all about all of these problems and their prices reflect the work they do that you don't have to do.
If you shopped at or through your LHS none of this would happen.
It isn't reasonable, let alone cost effective to examine each factory packed model for damage before shipping it AGAIN. Indeed, that would be just a dumb idea. If the distributor opens, checks and repackages then it becomes responsible for any subsequent damage. No sensible business would ever do that if it expected the manufacturer to replace items damaged in transit due to packaging problems.
Even your LHS would lose money using that marketing method.
At your LHS you can usually at least view one version of a model as a displayed product but then there's the risk of ham handed customers. For NIB product I prefer to buy previously unopened product and your LHS prefers that also for obvious reasons. I usually have the packaging opened and the model taken out and inspected right there with the salespersons assistance. Then we both know who broke it. If it's a locomotive they will test run it for me right there. No obligation to buy. That's called customer service and it isn't supplied for free but these costs are only recoverable if customers actually buy at retail pricing.
Frankly, mail order customers are fortunate their suppliers allow returns without question. They must crank in cost recovery to allow for customers who try to return product they themselves have broken.
Finally, the Amazon business model is environmentally unsound. All product returned to Amazon is discarded regardless of reason for return and that cost is absorbed by the supplier who sells through Amazon. Then that discarded product is "recycled" by businesses set up just for that purpose. Who knows how and where that like new (or maybe not) recycled product hits the market.
The World is steadily going crazy. Just shop at your LHS. They know all about all of these problems and their prices reflect the work they do that you don't have to do.
I grew up working in a local hobby shop. By age 20 I was the full time train department manger in another local hobby shop.
In 1978 the Baltimore metro area had no less than a dozen local hobby shops, two of which were regionally well known model train only shops.
Today, as retail shops, only one of those remains, and that one has moved way out into the rural suburbs, in the opposite direction from the rural suburbs I live in.
And the other is now a well known internet only operation......
There are a few good model train shops in this region, every one is more than an hour from my house, and the best ones are more like two hours.
Price aside, that is just not practical for a lot of people. I only make some of those drives a couple times a year.
I have not purchased a ton of stuff recently, so my recent experiances are limited. But I have not had any problems.
In fact, I have not had very many problems with damaged or defective products in my whole 50 plus years in this hobby.
Maybe I have just been lucky........
I don't think Trainworld is selling seconds, I don't think there is even a mechanism for that in this industry.
Bachmann, I know for a fact, keeps their defects as parts mules, using them to fix some returned product. Bachmann is also known to replace product rather readily, rather than fix everything.
The handling cost of defects often exceeds the cost of the product by a significant amount. A happy customer with a new replacement product that cost the business less than they would have spent to pay someone to repair the defective product is a win-win.
We are not talking about automobiles, or houses........
Would the nostalgic side of me like to see a return to well stocked local hobby shops? Sure. But it's not going to happen for most people.
We could see the current situation coming way back then in the early 80's. The product selection was already starting to explode, discounting was becoming more common. We tried to get investors interested in a "Mega Store" that could have had great service, big complete inventory, mail order sales, and lower prices. But it was hard selling the idea. And risky.
I think just the opposite will happen. We will see more and more product go directly from manufacturer to consumer, which is how this hobby started in the 1930's.
Sheldon
Interesting point sheldon. That is what has happened to the music industry to a great extent, back to the old way of making money, concerts (just not now).
I have been active in this hobby for over sixty years, and had the privilege of growing up in a city that had at least three well stocked model railroad-not "hobby" shops but stores that dealt in trains only. Now I live 350 miles one way from the nearest train shop and it is mainly n scale and, I'm in HO. Needless to say, my sources are now restricted to internet suppliers only. Truth be told, how could you expect a small operation like most LHS' were to be fully stocked with all of the offerings available in the scale you model in? Thus, most modelers in the hinterlands such as myself, rely on the TWs, MBKs, and others with significant inventories and an internet presence,for our purchases. Buying directly from the manufacturer/importer is a recent merchandising trend in this hobby, which is streamlining the supply chain but, you cannot by rail joiners from the same place that sells you couplers or, cabooses, in most cases.
Because this thread was inspired by the burgeoning receipt of damaged goods from these outlets, I offer the following:
A few months ago, I ordered four ready-to-run, 89 foot auto racks. In HO, a full-scale, 89 foot auto rack is over an actual foot in length. Yet, the manufacturer/importer employed the same packaging system used on their 40 and 50 foot cars. On shorter models, it is sufficiently rigid enough to reasonably protect the item in shipping. It doesn't do much for a car twice that length. All four of the RTR auto racks arrived as "kits". That's not the end of the story. The firm I ordered them from is one of the hobby's larger internet suppliers, and is one I do four figures worth of business with annualy. This time they completely blew it. They put these four very fragile, almost $100 each, cars in a box that allowed less than an inch clearance on either end, wrapped them with an elastic band and some crumpled paper and a few air pillows, which were not enough to fill any voids remaining in the container. Then they surrendered the whole mess to UPS, expecting it to survive an 1800 mile journey at the hands of what must have been football playing neanderthals. I did not return the cars because they rapidly sold out, and were unavailable. Fortunately, I have all the pieces and, the ability to rebuild them-someday. Yes, all parties involved are aware of my "concerns" in this issue.
My final observation is related to packaging of models that contributes to the damaged condition they arrive in. I ordered five diesel locomotives of the same model from three different suppliers. Three of the five from two different suppliers arrived with the same components knocked off. These engines are from a well respected manufacturer/importer who takes pride in providing a quality product, detailed for a specific prototype. Unfortunately, the clamshell enclosure which is very robust and ideal for MOST of these locomotives, contacted and maintained pressure on these details on the units the entire time they were in the boxes. Result: details knocked off locomotives-some not all. A little hot knife surgery on the clamshells, and some cement on the models-problem solved. A prime example of one size NOT fitting all. Some of these issues are problems but, considering what the hobby is now, versus 60 years ago, many are mere inconveniences.
Well, just got my new loco from Lombard Hobby this morning. Perfect condition. Just like the other three I bought from them this year.
Same level of packing as TW, great. Same postal carrier.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI don't think Trainworld is selling seconds, I don't think there is even a mechanism for that in this industry.
I wouldn't say factory seconds as an outlet, but could they be reselling customer returns without proper re-inspection?
Some of the online retailers accept exchanges, no questions asked. Usually within 14 days of purchase. I have done a few this year ( because of unexpected issues with the products). The product wasn't "defective". They ask me if the product is defective since they want to know if they can expect to be able to resell it or not.
Maybe TW doesn't ask that question or the re-inspection/screening is sloppy.
Back in the day when you worked in the shop, did you accept customer returns or exchanges...they just didn't want it or changed their mind and wanted something else? If so, what did you do with that (supposed to be) perfectly good product that was returned for an exchange?
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL I don't think Trainworld is selling seconds, I don't think there is even a mechanism for that in this industry. I wouldn't say factory seconds as an outlet, but could they be reselling customer returns without proper re-inspection? Some of the online retailers accept exchanges, no questions asked. Usually within 14 days of purchase. I have done a few this year ( because of unexpected issues with the products). The product wasn't "defective". They ask me if the product is defective since they want to know if they can expect to be able to resell it or not. Maybe TW doesn't ask that question or the re-inspection/screening is sloppy. Back in the day when you worked in the shop, did you accept customer returns or exchanges...they just didn't want it or changed their mind and wanted something else? If so, what did you do with that (supposed to be) perfectly good product that was returned for an exchange?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I don't think Trainworld is selling seconds, I don't think there is even a mechanism for that in this industry.
Agreed, they may not be screening returns correctly.
We only took returns on defects, or truely "not been played with" stuff we could put back on the shelf.
But products were different then, very little truely RTR, no fragile high detail RTR like today.
It was easy to look at a blue box kit and know if it was still "virgin" or not.
Actually, let me correct the record. If you return something to TW, there is an online menu for stating why. Personally, I have returned items to TW only for being defective and have stated so.
thomas81zcorrect they are still closed , I will be suprised if they reopen , word was they wanted to move to the cape so who knows but the new owner is not a huge train guy more of a diorama miltary modeler , hence the new name
Historically, moving a hobby shop to Cape Coral is death for that hobby shop.
A & J Model Trains successfully moved to Cape Coral from Key West in the 1970s, and lasted here about 20 years, in spite of the fact it was the second most dirtiest/smelliest hobby shop I have ever been in. They were Cape Coral's hobby shop. The last of the owners passed away in the 1990s, then their stock was auctioned off.
After that, Carl Wilson moved his hobby shop to Cape Coral, but did not last. Then the Hobby Hound moved to Cape Coral, but only held on for about a year. Pioneer Games and Camelot Games did the same thing.
There was a hobby section of 47th Street Studio that lasted for a few years, but that store was primarily a cermamics craft store and all other hobbies were very minimal.
There were at least a couple others that names escape me. I wish someone would have bought A & J, cleaned it up, and made it successful.
You would think Cape Coral would have been the perfect place for a hobby shop with so many retired couples living in three bedroom homes, but it has not been that way.
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL I don't think Trainworld is selling seconds, I don't think there is even a mechanism for that in this industry. I wouldn't say factory seconds as an outlet, but could they be reselling customer returns without proper re-inspection?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
In my prior posting I did not mean to suggest that Trainworld is selling factory seconds or gray market goods. But the stuff evidently is out there. One firm I know of that actively seeks to prevent this is Bachmann.
Alyth,What if your town doesnt have a hobby shop?