OvermodTo me the thing looks disturbingly like a black-painted hot water heater on a cart at the front.
Could we not describe all steam locomotives as a hot water heater on a cart?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
The Niagara was essentially designed during wartime as a dual-service engine, just a step up from an L4 Mohawk and sized to go most places one of those would fit, with nominally larger drivers (75" instead of 72") At that time the presumed 'real' passenger engine would have been the C1a, which used essentially the same boiler on a duplex chassis -- the formal spec Hugh Guillaume provided for this was March 1945, which is already outside your date range of interest.
The Niagara was built with no smoke deflectors, and to me the thing in that state looks disturbingly like a black-painted hot water heater on a cart at the front. Where the apotheosis happened was in the conversion to 79" passenger drivers for testing, which proved so useful that the subsequent engines were built that way and no one looked back; the lightweight rods provided all the high-speed potential NYC was capable of utilizing at acceptable augment (this later being confirmed by Kiefer's motive-power testing published in 1947).
Note that the original 6000's deflectors were built with a distinctive flat rear edge, not angled like the production engines (or the prospective ones on the P&LE A-2-A Berks). Gerbracht's Know Thy Niagaras has a section on this if you're interested.
Erie Berks were interesting. They were the first high-speed Berkshire design, facilitated by Erie's high/wide mainline clearances from the 6'-gauge history, and were as I recall the inspiration for the van Sweringen AMC's later very, very successful Berkshire designs. They are type S (in evolutionary classes that I think went up to S3), and you can look them up in places like steamlocomotive.com for details. These are large locomotives with the then-de-rigueur-for-speed 69" rather than 63" drivers for freight engines. Problem is that they were relatively unpopular modeling prototypes, for some of the same reason C&NW H 4-8-4s were, so they are scarce to find in model form, and regrettably can't be 'reverse engineered' from the much more popular AMC-Berk models (at least, not accurately...)
Thanks, Victoria. That helps clarify things a bit more for everyone. So, if I'm understanding you correctly in putting the layout picture together, your modeling era is roughly 1910-1944, yes?
I totally get what you are saying about not leaving a good locomotive in its box. Every steamer and early diesel I purchase is for operating on my layout. So, zero shelf queens for me.
That said, the S1/S2 NYC 4-8-4 Niagaras were built in 1945/1946. The pilot model, #6000, posed for her offical portrait on March '45, which would have been at the tail end of WWII and outside of your modeling era. The 4-8-2 L-3 & L-4 Mohawks were also equipped with smoke lifters/elephant ears. Is it possible that the photos you saw were Mohawks operating in fast freight service rather than Niagaras on the Elmyra branch? That would make more sense to me.
FWIW,
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
doctorwayne Thanks, Tom, I guess I did get carried away a bit. The latest version of photobucket really makes including photos quite the onerous process. Most of my albums there have, due to some glitch in their software, I think, multiple copies of the same photos, so an album that might have had 150 photos now has over 600. They also did away with the page-by-page album format, so instead of going to the page (or near the page) where I recall the photo to be, the process now involves scrolling to find the desired photo. Once that photo (perhaps of the kit parts) is first "viewed", then "copied", to be pasted here, when I return to get the next photo, I have to start again at the beginning, and scroll through again looking for that second picture. The fact that there are multiples of each photo make the process very time consuming - creating that long-winded post took over four hours, mainly due to hunting for images to illustrate the words. I've approached photobucket multiple times to reinstate the page-by-page format, at least as an option, but if it's not changed by the date of my next renewal (in August), there will be no more pictures from me, and likely no more input here either. I think that most folks here will skip a long-winded written-out process, but will at least tolerate it if there are also some decent pictures to view. (I generally do read the long written posts if the topic is of interest, but often would appreciate a few photos if the poster has them. Wayne
Thanks, Tom, I guess I did get carried away a bit. The latest version of photobucket really makes including photos quite the onerous process. Most of my albums there have, due to some glitch in their software, I think, multiple copies of the same photos, so an album that might have had 150 photos now has over 600. They also did away with the page-by-page album format, so instead of going to the page (or near the page) where I recall the photo to be, the process now involves scrolling to find the desired photo. Once that photo (perhaps of the kit parts) is first "viewed", then "copied", to be pasted here, when I return to get the next photo, I have to start again at the beginning, and scroll through again looking for that second picture. The fact that there are multiples of each photo make the process very time consuming - creating that long-winded post took over four hours, mainly due to hunting for images to illustrate the words.
I've approached photobucket multiple times to reinstate the page-by-page format, at least as an option, but if it's not changed by the date of my next renewal (in August), there will be no more pictures from me, and likely no more input here either.
I think that most folks here will skip a long-winded written-out process, but will at least tolerate it if there are also some decent pictures to view. (I generally do read the long written posts if the topic is of interest, but often would appreciate a few photos if the poster has them.
Wayne
Hi,
I'm a bit late to the party......... but here is my answer to the OP's original question.
Decades ago I started out with Athearn and MDC kits and of course they were pretty easy. But later on I modified them with KDs, steel wheels, weathering and so on. They turned out to be very reliable runners, and good looking too!
But the next steps - for me - was (in order of my difficulty) were kits from Walthers, Red Caboose, and Ulrich. Ulrich was a totally new twist as they are metal, and have sprung trucks, and so on.
Anyway, these kits are still on Ebay, so you have a lot to choose from.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
tstage Pennsy_I1 According to the info I found, I1 Decapods were the most common, with L1 Mikes, M1 Mountains, and various 2-8-0s appearing quite a bit on freight. E6 Atlantics and the occasional Pacific handled the passenger trains, with B6 and B8 0-6-0s handling the yards. There was a single A5 0-4-0 in Williamsport to serve some industrial trackage. No streamlined, articulateds, or the later big engines went up the Elmira Branch due to clearance and weight restrictions, though if I find one I might run it for fun or during open houses. The NYC did have trackage rights on the Elmira Branch north of Southport Yard (near the end of my layout). So a few NYC engines (probably Mikes, not too familiar with NYC freight steam. I do have a Niagara, so that'll be there). Occasionally the Erie would run detours when their mainline was blocked, and I do plan to model the Elmira station. Victoria, Just for ease of recommendations I've listed out the locomotives you mentioned from your response above... PRR: 0-4-0 A5 switcher 0-6-0 B6/B8 switcher 2-8-0 H1-H10 Consolidated 2-8-2 L1 Mike 2-10-0 I1 Decapod 4-4-2 E6 Atlantic 4-6-2 K4 Pacific 4-8-2 M1 Mountain NYC: 2-8-2 H-5/H-6 Light Mike - H-7/H-10 Heavy Mike 4-8-2 L-1 thru L-3 (freight)/L-4 (dual-purpose) Mohawk Erie ??? I also listed the NYC locomotives that would most likely be found on the Elmira Branch. Mikes and Mohawks were the main freight haulers. The L-4 Mohawks were "dual purpose" and could be used for both freight & passenger service. The Niagara was primarily a passenger locomotive because of the large (79") drivers. Tom
Pennsy_I1 According to the info I found, I1 Decapods were the most common, with L1 Mikes, M1 Mountains, and various 2-8-0s appearing quite a bit on freight. E6 Atlantics and the occasional Pacific handled the passenger trains, with B6 and B8 0-6-0s handling the yards. There was a single A5 0-4-0 in Williamsport to serve some industrial trackage. No streamlined, articulateds, or the later big engines went up the Elmira Branch due to clearance and weight restrictions, though if I find one I might run it for fun or during open houses. The NYC did have trackage rights on the Elmira Branch north of Southport Yard (near the end of my layout). So a few NYC engines (probably Mikes, not too familiar with NYC freight steam. I do have a Niagara, so that'll be there). Occasionally the Erie would run detours when their mainline was blocked, and I do plan to model the Elmira station.
The NYC did have trackage rights on the Elmira Branch north of Southport Yard (near the end of my layout). So a few NYC engines (probably Mikes, not too familiar with NYC freight steam. I do have a Niagara, so that'll be there). Occasionally the Erie would run detours when their mainline was blocked, and I do plan to model the Elmira station.
Victoria,
Just for ease of recommendations I've listed out the locomotives you mentioned from your response above...
PRR:
NYC:
Erie
I also listed the NYC locomotives that would most likely be found on the Elmira Branch. Mikes and Mohawks were the main freight haulers. The L-4 Mohawks were "dual purpose" and could be used for both freight & passenger service. The Niagara was primarily a passenger locomotive because of the large (79") drivers.
Not trying to be difficult, just a couple of things I wanted to note to clear things up regarding the locos.
First, the most common PRR Pacific there was the K2. It was similar to the K4, but was less powerful and almost always hand-fired, as opposed to the K4 which often had stokers fitted after the late 1920s. According to sources, the K2 differed externally in the cab windows and trailing truck.
Second, the Consolidations in service around 1910 started with the H3, otherwise known as the 'Class R.' By this time, even they were old and being replaced by the H6. The earlier H1 and H2 were basically the PRR's first 2-8-0s and their use anywhere on the system may have been limited to MoW, though they may have been scrapped, sold, or used as stationary boilers by this time.
Third, the B6 and B8 were similar in many ways, but differed mainly in the B8 being equipped with the old slide valves and the B6 with piston valves. The reason a B8 would have been in service at the end of my modeling era in 1944 was due to a combination of wartime motive power shortage and the fact that Ralston (which closed in 1930 but is kept busy on my planned layout using modeler's license) had relatively light traffic volumes. They were also seen in coach yards and other places where they would have been adequate.
Fourth, though the NYC didn't have any passenger service on the Elmira Branch (as far as I know), I have seen photos of Niagaras on fast freights, and considering the aforementioned wartime engine shortage which affected all railroads, having one on my layout is something plausible. Plus, there's no reason to keep a perfectly good steam engine sitting in a box when it would look decent on the layout.
Fifth, to try to narrow down the selection of motive power for the Erie, here's a few things I found out:
1. The Erie detours were off their NY-Chicago mainline, so their best power would likely have been seen.
2. Erie passenger trains were described as being in immaculate condition, even in the Depression.
3. The passenger power was described as Pacifics with Vanderbilt tenders and freight power was described as most likely USRA-type engines with standard tenders.
Perhaps someone more familiar with the Erie would be able to provide more clarity on what to look for.
Thanks,
Victoria
[edit] Simply Googling Erie steam locomotives, I came across their K5a, a Pacific, the photo I looked at was taken in the 1950s so I'm thinking that it could have been a predecessor to the K5a. They also had a large fleet of Berkshires and Mikes, not sure of the class designations, but they seem to be the right sort of power for their mainline in the 1930s and early 40s.
Pennsy_I1According to the info I found, I1 Decapods were the most common, with L1 Mikes, M1 Mountains, and various 2-8-0s appearing quite a bit on freight. E6 Atlantics and the occasional Pacific handled the passenger trains, with B6 and B8 0-6-0s handling the yards. There was a single A5 0-4-0 in Williamsport to serve some industrial trackage. No streamlined, articulateds, or the later big engines went up the Elmira Branch due to clearance and weight restrictions, though if I find one I might run it for fun or during open houses. The NYC did have trackage rights on the Elmira Branch north of Southport Yard (near the end of my layout). So a few NYC engines (probably Mikes, not too familiar with NYC freight steam. I do have a Niagara, so that'll be there). Occasionally the Erie would run detours when their mainline was blocked, and I do plan to model the Elmira station.
tstage Pennsy_I1 In regards to "reasonable price"d locomotives, what price range are you looking at? Tom Reasonable price for a loco (for me) is less than $300 for something in good condition. I'm having a hard time finding a job in the rural area I'm in, so money is a huge concern. Great! Thanks for giving us some price "boundaries", Pennsy. And I get needing to find a job and watching your pennies. Been laid off twice in the past 6 years. Okay, next question: What type PRR steamers are you looking for? Switchers? Mikados? Large steam? If you give us your preferences we may be able to hunt something down for you. Although I don't know why a NYC guy would want to help a PRR guy. Tom
Pennsy_I1 In regards to "reasonable price"d locomotives, what price range are you looking at? Tom Reasonable price for a loco (for me) is less than $300 for something in good condition. I'm having a hard time finding a job in the rural area I'm in, so money is a huge concern.
In regards to "reasonable price"d locomotives, what price range are you looking at? Tom
In regards to "reasonable price"d locomotives, what price range are you looking at?
Reasonable price for a loco (for me) is less than $300 for something in good condition. I'm having a hard time finding a job in the rural area I'm in, so money is a huge concern.
Great! Thanks for giving us some price "boundaries", Pennsy. And I get needing to find a job and watching your pennies. Been laid off twice in the past 6 years.
Okay, next question: What type PRR steamers are you looking for? Switchers? Mikados? Large steam? If you give us your preferences we may be able to hunt something down for you.
Although I don't know why a NYC guy would want to help a PRR guy.
Sorry for the late response. Lots going on still, especially with the holidays getting near.
According to the info I found, I1 Decapods were the most common, with L1 Mikes, M1 Mountains, and various 2-8-0s appearing quite a bit on freight. E6 Atlantics and the occasional Pacific handled the passenger trains, with B6 and B8 0-6-0s handling the yards. There was a single A5 0-4-0 in Williamsport to serve some industrial trackage. No streamlined, articulateds, or the later big engines went up the Elmira Branch due to clearance and weight restrictions, though if I find one I might run it for fun or during open houses.
dknelson Slowly and thoughtfully reading the instructions (fighting every manly instinct you have).
Slowly and thoughtfully reading the instructions (fighting every manly instinct you have).
I'm a woman, not a man, so not reading the instructions isn't really an issue for me. I write this post during a break from assembling an IKEA desk, so I know to always read those instructions.
Anyway, I liked the various posts about building different kits and modifying the grab irons.
I agree with Wayne's advice about taking it one step at a time. BTW, those gondolas, wooden reefers, Fowler boxcars, and others he did look great. Those are the kind of cars that would be ideal for my HO-scale EC fast freights.
The MoW boxcar is an excellent idea, especially considering I'm also modeling a small shortline (the S&NY) where it would look at home. They also had some interesting bunk cars made from 1870s-era PRR-design coaches. I've never heard of any kits of those, but I have a Bachmann combine of a similar, but shorter design, so I could use modeler's license there.
Plastic grab irons are good enough for my tastes. I'd consider upgrading them later when my fleet is large enough for operating sessions, but getting cars on the rails is of course a good place to start.
First priority is always to ensure the car is running well before I dive into grab irons and small details. Better to not put delicate details on until I can be reasonably sure that the car won't need operational modification such as coupler boxes, trucks, etc.
Accurail kits were very good when I was trying to live up to expectations at my local club. Now that isn't an issue anymore. (It's a long story.)
I have a UP 50' boxcar (yes, way past my era, but I'm also working on a modern collection to complement my more modern locos) that I bought used and partially-built online. One door got screwed up, so I looked at some prototype photos and MR articles and simply replaced it with a different door painted CSX blue to suggest a rushed repair.
Anything that seems way too old for even 1910 (the beginning of my era) can just be lettered S&NY. Shortlines have a tendency to use old equipment. On my way to visit my mom for Thanksgiving, I came across a pair of Burlington Junction SW1500s and had nostalgic memories of watching similar engines working the yards on CSX when I was a kid. I know there are some here that remember 0-6-0s switching, but I'm one of the younger generation and for me an SW1500 is old.
WayneWhy don’t you just go to a Google Blog as a picture host. You could make your own picture archives and organize them anyway you want.You could call it Dr Wayne’s pictures and your own text describing them.I’ve been using my blog for my picture host since the big Photo Bucket rip-off.I use the Pages portion without posted addresses or indexing for the picture archives.All I have to do is click on “Copy Image Location” and paste to the Forum. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
tstage Wayne, I think you just broke your own record for longest post and most photos - LOL! Good stuff, as usual. Tom
Wayne,
I think you just broke your own record for longest post and most photos - LOL! Good stuff, as usual.
I thought the scroll button would do it but my finger was getting tired. Next time I'll used the scroll bar on the right hand side. Maybe Wayne is working on the "captain Kirk" award. Ain't he some'tin?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
My thoughts on the Proto freight cars are somewhat ambivalent...I like the idea of the free-standing details, such as ladders and grabirons, but didn't at all care for the overly thick plastic grabirons. They were a pain to install, apparently, as I picked up dozens of partially-built ones off the "used" table at my then LHS. I used Evergreen styrene rod to plug the holes in the body shells, then drilled suitable holes for installing metal grabirons, either from Tichy or, when necessary, ones custom-bent from Tichy's .125" phosphor-bronze wire.When LifeLike changed to r-t-r cars, that same hobby shop, which almost never had a "sale", put the remaining unbought kits on at very good prices, I cleaned-up on them. It was a relief to not have to do repairs on the screwed-up kits from the used table.
Here are a few re-done Proto cars, mostly recovered from that "used" table in multiples (all of the photos should enlarge if clicked-upon)...
...and a couple of the many tank cars, at least one of which was factory-lettered as shown, but was in such rough shape (ca all over the place, along with broken plastic grabirons) that I stripped it before rebuilding it, then stripped a second one in a paint scheme that was too plain for my tastes, repainting both and lettering them with similar C-D-S dry transfers...
I did buy quite a few of the Proto gondolas, many lettered in very obscure roadnames, and therefore eventually put on sale at very reasonable prices.
I made the same upgrades on them, but painted them for one of my freelanced "home roads"...
While I'm a big fan of Accurail kits and the detail on them, I'd consider them as shake-the-box kits, but that doesn't mean that they can't be improved...
I like the moulded-in details on the Accurail Cars, but some cars, like this Accurail reefer, can be further improved with just a little extra effort...
I bought a dozen of their undecorated Fowler boxcars, and painted and lettered them for my freelanced home-road, using custom decals from Rail Graphics. I did replace the single moulded-on grabiron on the left end of this car with a wire one...
...but did this one with two grabirons, as I'm modelling the era when the second grab was mandated...
Some cars had the moulded-on wood doors removed, and replaced with more modern ones, like this one with Youngstown doors...
...or this one with CRECo doors...
...and in case no one has noticed, the board roofs of all of these cars have been redone with outside metal roofs, and all of the factory-supplied running boards have been replaced with board-by-board (styrene) ones, much more "to-scale".
While we're on the subject of Fowler boxcars, these, from True Line Trains (now under the Atlas umbrella) were probably the first r-t-r cars of that type, and all came with Delrin grabirons installed. As with the Proto offerings, too thick to look correct, but due to a printing error in the cars' dimensional data, the company offered carbody replacements with the correct lettering for every incorrect one returned to the place of purchase. That same hobbyshop with the "used" table put the incorrect bodies on sale for a couple of bucks each, and I bought a dozen or so, removing all of the grabirons, sill steps, and runningboard corner grabs, and replacing them with custom-bent metal parts, requiring 78 holes, drilled with a #79 bit in a pin vise, for each car....
This is part of the "patience" skills which become useful as you continue to push yourself to new challenges.
Tichy freight car kits are well engineered, and go together well. They do come with more add-on details, and while they make into nice cars, some can be further improved if you're so-inclined. Here's one of their PFE reefers...
...and a USRA singlesheathed boxcar....
...and a USRA singlesheathed boxcar rebuilt with steel sides...
A tank car is a good choice if you wish to hone your abilities in representing brake gear, as it's much more visible than that under most other freight cars...
I would guess this wreck crane to be Tichy's most involved kit , but again, the kit is well-engineered and the instructions easy to understand. I modified mine a bit to take Canadian winters into consideration.....
While it's not rolling stock, when you've gained more experience, Tichy's 400 ton coaling tower might give you a good workout, as the application of the details is pretty-much up to the modeller - not only in their placement, but also in the method of attachment. A friend asked me to build one for him, and gave me a second kit in gratitude...
It was some time later before I had a permanent spot for it...
Intermountain and Red Caboose are somewhat intertwined and comparable as far as construction is concerned, although they're still using plastic grabirons. They do have some other nicely-done details, though...
...although I modified this one (and two other copies of the same car) to match, as closely as possible, to the real one, to which I had access...
Rapido offers some of their stuff, especially freight cars, in kit form, but I don't have much from them, other than this meat reefer...
...it was fairly easy to build, although I did vary the order of construction a bit....
Branchline (now part of Atlas) has some nicely-done kits for freight cars, like this reefer...
...while their passenger car kits are a bit more involved, although not difficult...
Tangent also offers many of their freight cars in kit form, and while they're fairly easy to build, there are lots of parts. I often revise the order of assembly where it seems logical to do so.Here are a couple of their undecorated kits, again lettered for an industry on my layout...
...this one was the most time-consuming to build, not that the kit was that difficult, but the lettering was done with decals cut from various sources, and is comprised of 168 individual pieces, some as small as the period following a shortform...
Other options to improve your freight car model building are so-called craftsman's kits, often consisting of many individual resin pieces just to make the basic carbody, plus lots of add-on details. Some such kits may come with a one-piece body casting, but still lots of add-on details, and in many cases, these parts may require clean-up with a knife or file. Assembly is usually with ca or epoxy, but the complexity from different suppliers is all over the map, with some pretty easy to build and others...shall we say...frustrating.I don't have a lot of these types of cars, but here are a few...
This one is from Speedwitch Media, and was enjoyable to build...
...while this one is from Wright-TRAK. It had four pages of instructions, but they were easily understood and the kit parts were well-made...
Westerfield is another maker of craftsman's-type kits, and has been around for quite a while.
I built a couple of these gondolas, based on a CNR prototype...
...the parts were well-formed and fit together well, so a pretty easy build, and fairly sturdy models, too...
These are most of the parts for a somewhat older Westerfield kit for a CPR Fowler boxcar...
...it was easy enough to build...
However, rather than paint and letter it for the CPR (I already had lots of CPR Fowler cars), I opted to make it a MoW car for one of my freelanced roads. Here it is, after a few minor adjustments...
I could have bought the Fowler kit for $10.00, but as the hobbyshop was wrapping-up its business, I was offered the Fowler car for $9.00 if I would also take a Westerfield kit for a Norfolk & Western hopper. I hemmed and hawed about it, as the car actually pre-dated my layout's late '30s era, and by the looks of the parts in the box, I wouldn't have been surprised if the kit dated from the same era.However, a good friend was with me, and he interjected with a "We'll take it!", and presented his credit card to seal the deal. (He had, 10 minutes-or-so previously, just made a very good deal on a brass CNR 4-8-4, and I had the feeling that he was worried about the shop owner changing his mind on the price.)
I decided then to build the hopper for him, although it would be even more out of sync with the mid-'50s era of his layout.I don't have a photo of the parts in the box, but many of them were warped and all of the parts extremely brittle...even trimming off the flash with a sharp blade was snapping the parts into multiple fragments. Some could be recovered, but I did replace a few with styrene fabrications. I was almost ready to give-up on it, but decided to not let it get the better of me. Here's the car assembled...
...and with paint and lettering...
The car is extremely fragile, so my friend declined it. In returned, I repaired his brass bargain, and also painted and lettered it.
Some of the more complex kits can be rather expensive, so my advice would be to simply take incremental steps to further your skills, rather than diving in at the deep end and possibly quitting in frustration. Every mistake you make will provide a lesson, which will eventually be of benefit. Don't get discouraged - I've screwed-up lots of things, but eventually learned enough to go back to them and fix my mistakes, or, in some cases, simply scrap the mess I'd made, and start afresh. Building stuff can be a lot of fun, and when you're enjoying yourself, you'll often find that things somehow become easier.
Many years ago I started out my kit building experience in HO with an Accurail boxcar. My 2nd kit? A Proto 2000 tank car. Wow! - What an awakening! As I remember it, it took me 8 hrs to assemble it...but I did it. The 2nd tank car? A little over 3 hrs.
Even now I prefer kits to RTR. However, other than Accurail and undecorated versions from Tichy and Tangent, very few manufacturers are making new kits anymore. Thankfully, there are some still available at train shows and on eBay. And one of my LHSes still has quite a number of Branchline AAR boxcars on the shelves. It's too bad that most don't fit my era.
willy6 Years ago I gave my model railroad friend a Proto 2000 box car kit as a holiday gift. About a month later, he gave it back to me and said "Thanks for the thought but there is no way I am even going to attempt to build that". It is still sitting on the shelf in my train building as a retirement project.
Years ago I gave my model railroad friend a Proto 2000 box car kit as a holiday gift. About a month later, he gave it back to me and said "Thanks for the thought but there is no way I am even going to attempt to build that". It is still sitting on the shelf in my train building as a retirement project.
Wow, I've never considered myself skilled kit builder but Ive built around 5 proto 2000 boxcars and a couple of gondolas and a covered 3 bay hopper. I guess that guy freaked out when he saw all those bitty parts. I used a xacto blade to cut the parts off the sprue by a few years later got a sprue nipper at a train show and it makes despruing a breeze. I'd have built more boxcars but they are a bit too early for my late 70's theme layout.
dknelsonAnd that in my opinion is the major skill that needs to be acquired before taking on the next level(s) -- patience. Thinking ahead to next steps. Slowly and thoughtfully reading the instructions (fighting every manly instinct you have)
Dave: That was an excellent post. I enjoyed reading it all the way through.
Thank you.
Just to note, most PRR steam engines can be had for very little. They may need some work, but imo thats much better than scratch building, unless thats your thing ;)
Nearly every single PRR steam engine thinkable has been made in brass (A5,B6,E5,E6, G5, K2, K4(and both streamlined), K5, H6, H8, H9, H10, L1, M1, I1, N1, T1, Q1, Q2, Turbine, etc. )
MOST can be had for around $170 (unpainted,stock motor) if you look long enough on ebay. Others, notably the larger engines not so much. Some will need some work, but I think its worth it in the long run.
Aim for Olympia, Gem, Alco, United, PFM, Sunset, and Westside brass makers.
BLI PRR engines can also be had for cheap too, M1s these days are selling like hot cakes for around $100-$150, and others for less than $250(if you really look hard enough).
Im not saying dont scratchbuild, but if youre doing it soley for the purpose of saving money, I dont think its worth it.
Cheers!
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
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The Bowser freight car kits are, imho, a good bang for the buck. Fun to assemble and, with detailing and weathering, look pretty nice.
They're not Genesis level but are a nice step above the traditional Athearn blue box kits.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
dknelson The O.P. mentioned that price was an object, and I understand that when new skills are being learned. And there might be money that needs to be spent on some tools that have not been needed up to now. The original LifeLike Proto2000 freight car kits are often seen unbuilt at train shows (remember those? ) for as little as $5, and of course you take what you can get in the way of prototype. I'd start with the flatcar if you can find it. The days are long gone when the first of what I'd call "complex" plastic freight car kits was the Kurtz Kraft PS-1 boxcar kit from the late 1950s. It came without trucks or couplers in a plastic bag and sold for 89 cents! Or was it 79 cents? Separate ends, sides, roof and floor, separate ladders and grabs - and this came at a time when plastic had the reputation of being for inept modelers and kids. Not many modelers actually had any skills back then working with styrene. Just about the time modelers got good at assembling Kurtz Kraft kits, the line disappeared. The next similar car a few years later was the Pacific HO mechanical reefer which Silver Streak and later Walthers ended up selling. But again once you learned and got good at it (meaning your first car might be a bit rough around the edges and there were also design flaws inherent in the Pacific HO mechanical reefer that Walthers was never able to cure) there was little to no other line of plastic kits that your newly acquired skills could be applied to. That is why the Gould plastic kits - tank car, flat car, locomotive crane -- were such a revelation at the time when they came out, oh I think 1980 or so. And once again skills had to be learned, although by that time there was more kitbashing and scratchbuilding going on in plastic as well as kit modification, so for some guys the skills were there. The Gould line is now part of Tichy's. I mentioned the Life Like Proto2000 kits. For those who remember when those kits were new, Life Like would generously send free replacement sprues for grab irons and other delicate parts because frankly I think they kind of got ahead of the talent level of the hobby in terms of what a tool and die person COULD do in the way of thin cross sectons and what even a skilled modeler needed in the way of even modest durability and practicality and fine motor skills. I think I took advantage of their generosity for the first three P2K freight cars I built. I still needed more parts for the fourth kit but by then I had a little stash thanks to LifeLike! I think Life Like later started to introduce some wire grabs into the kits even before they sold themselves to Walthers. You can make your own wire parts as mentioned above but there are also aftermarket parts that can be adapted. Speaking personally (and I am at odds with some of my prototype modeler friends on this topic) I am prepared to sacrifice some accuracy and realism for practical durability. Now rare but at one time IMWX kits were being sold off cheap because the line had disappeared. I believe IMWX was actually Intermountain from back when Intermountain was mostly a 1/4" scale kit maker and IMWX was their way of dipping their toes into HO. The 1937 AAR boxcar kit builts up very similarly if not identically to Intermountain and Red Caboose so I am glad I got my feet wet with the style with a kit that didn't make me feel nervous about the cost. The advice above about sticking with the Accurail-level type of kit (similar to Athearn blue box, Bowser, Con-Cor) but go all out with more accurate detailing is also good in terms of learned skills and learned patience. Again some new tools may need to be added to your workbench but what red-blooded modeler ever complained about that? Micro Mark sells a special chisel for getting rid of the unwanted cast on details. Of course you can also hone these skills with RTR cars or kits that other people have built and sell at swap meets/train shows (sigh again). In fact there is train set crap that you can get for a $1 at some shows to practice on, but then there comes the day when you actually do a great job and wish you'd done it with a better car. But see Dr. Wayne's various postings over the last many years because it seems there is no train-set raw material sow's ear that he cannot convert into a silk purse gem with skill and sweat equity. And patience. And that in my opinion is the major skill that needs to be acquired before taking on the next level(s) -- patience. Thinking ahead to next steps. Slowly and thoughtfully reading the instructions (fighting every manly instinct you have). Dave Nelson
The O.P. mentioned that price was an object, and I understand that when new skills are being learned. And there might be money that needs to be spent on some tools that have not been needed up to now. The original LifeLike Proto2000 freight car kits are often seen unbuilt at train shows (remember those? ) for as little as $5, and of course you take what you can get in the way of prototype. I'd start with the flatcar if you can find it.
The days are long gone when the first of what I'd call "complex" plastic freight car kits was the Kurtz Kraft PS-1 boxcar kit from the late 1950s. It came without trucks or couplers in a plastic bag and sold for 89 cents! Or was it 79 cents? Separate ends, sides, roof and floor, separate ladders and grabs - and this came at a time when plastic had the reputation of being for inept modelers and kids. Not many modelers actually had any skills back then working with styrene. Just about the time modelers got good at assembling Kurtz Kraft kits, the line disappeared. The next similar car a few years later was the Pacific HO mechanical reefer which Silver Streak and later Walthers ended up selling. But again once you learned and got good at it (meaning your first car might be a bit rough around the edges and there were also design flaws inherent in the Pacific HO mechanical reefer that Walthers was never able to cure) there was little to no other line of plastic kits that your newly acquired skills could be applied to.
That is why the Gould plastic kits - tank car, flat car, locomotive crane -- were such a revelation at the time when they came out, oh I think 1980 or so. And once again skills had to be learned, although by that time there was more kitbashing and scratchbuilding going on in plastic as well as kit modification, so for some guys the skills were there. The Gould line is now part of Tichy's.
I mentioned the Life Like Proto2000 kits. For those who remember when those kits were new, Life Like would generously send free replacement sprues for grab irons and other delicate parts because frankly I think they kind of got ahead of the talent level of the hobby in terms of what a tool and die person COULD do in the way of thin cross sectons and what even a skilled modeler needed in the way of even modest durability and practicality and fine motor skills. I think I took advantage of their generosity for the first three P2K freight cars I built. I still needed more parts for the fourth kit but by then I had a little stash thanks to LifeLike!
I think Life Like later started to introduce some wire grabs into the kits even before they sold themselves to Walthers. You can make your own wire parts as mentioned above but there are also aftermarket parts that can be adapted. Speaking personally (and I am at odds with some of my prototype modeler friends on this topic) I am prepared to sacrifice some accuracy and realism for practical durability.
Now rare but at one time IMWX kits were being sold off cheap because the line had disappeared. I believe IMWX was actually Intermountain from back when Intermountain was mostly a 1/4" scale kit maker and IMWX was their way of dipping their toes into HO. The 1937 AAR boxcar kit builts up very similarly if not identically to Intermountain and Red Caboose so I am glad I got my feet wet with the style with a kit that didn't make me feel nervous about the cost.
The advice above about sticking with the Accurail-level type of kit (similar to Athearn blue box, Bowser, Con-Cor) but go all out with more accurate detailing is also good in terms of learned skills and learned patience. Again some new tools may need to be added to your workbench but what red-blooded modeler ever complained about that? Micro Mark sells a special chisel for getting rid of the unwanted cast on details. Of course you can also hone these skills with RTR cars or kits that other people have built and sell at swap meets/train shows (sigh again). In fact there is train set crap that you can get for a $1 at some shows to practice on, but then there comes the day when you actually do a great job and wish you'd done it with a better car. But see Dr. Wayne's various postings over the last many years because it seems there is no train-set raw material sow's ear that he cannot convert into a silk purse gem with skill and sweat equity. And patience.
And that in my opinion is the major skill that needs to be acquired before taking on the next level(s) -- patience. Thinking ahead to next steps. Slowly and thoughtfully reading the instructions (fighting every manly instinct you have).
Dave Nelson
The flatcars and open hoppers seem like a good place to start, as with my era and prototype, coal was king and there were plenty of military trains rolling through.
tstage Pennsy_I1 Pennsy_I1 ...I'm looking to improve my skills. Gidday, Ok, all very good advice so far but depending on what skills you’re actually wishing to improve, I’m going to put it out there that an Athearn blue box freight car kit is a great step. Unless you can get an undecorated kit, you can learn how to paint strip, to remove cast on moulding, to thin roof walks, to make your own grab irons and steps, to drill # 79 holes (preferably with out breaking them, a problem that the Bear has ) to paint, to apply decals, and best of all, if things turn to custard, the kit was cheap! Cheers, the Bear. Eventually I'll have to scratchbuild (notably steam locos, as I have a VERY hard time finding PRR steamers for a reasonable price), so all those would probably be very useful. Also, what's a good way to learn to repair motors? In regards to "reasonable price"d locomotives, what price range are you looking at? Tom
Pennsy_I1 Pennsy_I1 ...I'm looking to improve my skills. Gidday, Ok, all very good advice so far but depending on what skills you’re actually wishing to improve, I’m going to put it out there that an Athearn blue box freight car kit is a great step. Unless you can get an undecorated kit, you can learn how to paint strip, to remove cast on moulding, to thin roof walks, to make your own grab irons and steps, to drill # 79 holes (preferably with out breaking them, a problem that the Bear has ) to paint, to apply decals, and best of all, if things turn to custard, the kit was cheap! Cheers, the Bear. Eventually I'll have to scratchbuild (notably steam locos, as I have a VERY hard time finding PRR steamers for a reasonable price), so all those would probably be very useful. Also, what's a good way to learn to repair motors?
Pennsy_I1 ...I'm looking to improve my skills. Gidday, Ok, all very good advice so far but depending on what skills you’re actually wishing to improve, I’m going to put it out there that an Athearn blue box freight car kit is a great step. Unless you can get an undecorated kit, you can learn how to paint strip, to remove cast on moulding, to thin roof walks, to make your own grab irons and steps, to drill # 79 holes (preferably with out breaking them, a problem that the Bear has ) to paint, to apply decals, and best of all, if things turn to custard, the kit was cheap! Cheers, the Bear.
Pennsy_I1 ...I'm looking to improve my skills.
Eventually I'll have to scratchbuild (notably steam locos, as I have a VERY hard time finding PRR steamers for a reasonable price), so all those would probably be very useful. Also, what's a good way to learn to repair motors?
McMaster-Carr is a good source from small drill bits and screws at good prices. You'll also want a good pin vise(s) small enough to handle #61-#80 drill bits.
Pennsy_I1Also, do hardware stores sell the kinds of drills and bits that I need?
Nope. The small drills needed for this purpose are specialty hobby items and will need to be obtained from a hobby retailer or someplace like Micro Mark.
Rob Spangler
Installing grab irons on Proto 2000 kits is not really a difficulty. It's the stirrups that are challanging to remove from the sprue without breaking. And the stirrups are the ones that are most apt to break after installation if handled incorrectly, or if the car is laid on its side.
On a few Proto 2000 cars with broken stirrups I just replaced all of them with the proper type metal stirrup from A-Line. (You'll destroy the car before bending or breaking one of those.) The challenge is drilling the holes straight from the bottom side into the narrow wall of the shell. They do look great when done well.
I've also built a number of Proto 2000 kits of double-deck stock cars and boxcars. These are a bit more complex than Accurail kits, and make slightly nicer models. These I have bought as decorated kits, so only some additional weathering is needed.
Like all my rolling stock, these got Intermountain metal wheelsets and Kadee couplers during assembly.
I got these some time ago as Walthers Flyer closeouts. That is a good place to look.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Pennsy,
P2K is your next step. Stock cars, box cars and gondolas are good bets. These kits have good trucks and they supply proper weight with the kit. You will have to replace the couplers. As for the plastic grabs, you can replace those with wire but I haven't had problems with the plastic grabs and I have lots of these cars on the layout.
Dealing with individually installed grab irons is usually the thing that hangs up most people moving to the next level of kits. Make peace with installing them and you will be well on your way...I did an article years ago for another magazine on batch building cars and I timed how long it took to do each step in a batch of P2K stock cars. Cutting the grabs from the sprue and installing them took the most time.
Tichy and resin kits require painting and decals which is another step up the ladder. Re-detailing old Athearn cars is a good learning experience but lots of effort for a less realisitc product. However, I have redetailed several old blue box kits just because I like the cars, especially the 50' express fruit reefers.
Lots of ways to go, Buy a few kits and give it a shot..
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Pennsy_I1 Eventually I'll have to scratchbuild (notably steam locos, as I have a VERY hard time finding PRR steamers for a reasonable price), so all those would probably be very useful. Also, what's a good way to learn to repair motors?
At the price of new can motors why tinker around trying to repair a motor.My thing is restoring old locomotives to as good if not better than new out of the box.The Mabuchi motors are very powerful and work very nicely in HO locomotives. Most Neodymium magnet motors draw less than half the current and have more than double the power, best of all is the low cost.The Mabuchi SF266SA 12 VDC- 6900 RPM No load single 2mm shaft costs under $5.I have remotored well over 30 HO steam locomotives using either the Canon EN22 or the SF266SA motors. The EN22 is getting hard to find and the price is increasing. I buy the SF266SA in bulk for around $3.50.I install a pair of SF266SA motors in my Rivarossi articulateds.Two SF266SA motors draw less than half the current of the Rivarossi motor with four times the power. I add 10 ounces of weight to the boilers and that more than doubles the drawbar. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
I've built a few Tichy kits, flatcars and boxcars. The kits have a lot of small parts, and the brake components make for a nice model even if only you know they are there.
I get these kits undecorated and they're very reasonably priced. Because they were all planned or non-standard use, idler flats for the carfloat and hide service for the tannery, I printed my own decals and did my own rattle can spray painting. These skills are part of kitbuilding too, so here's a chance to work on those, too.