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Replacing Horn & hook couplers with knuckle couplers

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 12:10 PM

MisterBeasley
You MUST make sure to check every coupler installation before running the car in a train.  And, you need to correct every discrepancy. 

This is 100% true, and a solid practice. Nothing should run on the layout until it has passed all checks.

Yes

-Kevin

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 11:44 AM

No matter what the web sites, ads and fellow modelers say, this really is never a 5 minute job.  The suggestions to get the trip pin pliers and coupler gauge are good ones.  You MUST make sure to check every coupler installation before running the car in a train.  And, you need to correct every discrepancy.  It's just one of those little tasks that we, as model railroaders, get used to and do without complaint.  Like meticulous track laying, the reward is derailment-free running and trains that stay together.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by RR_Mel on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 8:57 AM

I’ve been using Kadee couplers for what seems like forever.  Like Mr. B. I like the Scale Couplers much better.  I now only buy the Scale Couplers, I rarely just replace the standard couplers for just aesthetic reasons.  

I haven’t had any problems with the Scale Couplers and they mate nicely to the standard size coupler.  I have some pretty steep grades on my layout (3½%) and any jerky action can cause uncoupling on a grade with either standard or Scale Couplers.

Most of my passenger fleet is Athearn 72’ streamline or heavy weight using the standard Athearn truck mounted couplers.  I haven’t experienced any problems with Kadee’s or the Mc Henry couplers on my shortie coaches.

As I’m not the smoothest model railroad operator around so to prevent uncoupling with my passenger cars I went with the Scale Shelf Couplers and they work and look great.  I don’t use the Shelf Couplers on freight only passenger cars.  The Shelf Couplers are a bugger to uncouple without using a in track uncoupling magnet.


 

Mel


 
My Model Railroad   
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

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Posted by snjroy on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 8:38 AM

All good points. I would advocate, however, an approach based on your needs and financial situation. I look at my colleagues at our local club, and 80% of them do not "do" operations, and frankly, KDs would not change their experience that much. They don't do switching operations, and they rarely back up their trains. So, if you just like to see trains rumble forward, there is no rush to change ALL of your couplers. Many complain about the appearance of the horn hook: that can be quickly improved by clipping off the bottom pin. You can also cut off a bit of the "hook"...  As others have mentioned, you can then gradually introduce KDs. I was patient and found a package of them on sale. Which brings me to another thing: many modellers buy used cars in the bargain bin without paying attention to the wheels and couplers. To me that is precisely where the savings are: look for older cars that have been converted to metal wheels and KDs, and sold at a lower cost. 

Simon

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 7:07 AM

rrinker

Diffucilty factors on older equipment are all over the place - some is really easy, other requires some reworking, or out and out conversion to body mounted (which is a good idea regardless - truck mounted couplers are one of the big reasons you get derailments when shoving a cut of cars, especially through turnouts - the force is transmitted through the couple which, when truck mounted, forces the truck to skew and more easily pick the points.)

Conversion of truck mounted couplers to body mounted couplers is a good idea and not all that hard to do. I have done it with sheet styrene in which small pieces are cut and trimmed with an Xacto knife and glued in place on the ends of the underbodies of rolling stock. Coupler boxes are then screwed into these conversion pieces of styrene. I may have the term wrong, but I refer the conversion pieces of styrene as "bolsters".

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by steemtrayn on Wednesday, November 4, 2020 12:44 AM

You can replace truck-mounted couplers with Kadees using this:

https://www.kadee.com/all-products-c-81/212-ho-scale-talgo-truck-adaptors-p-320.htm

It fits in the coupler receptacle on the truck. Follow instructions.

As mentioned before, truck-mounted couplers cause problems when pushing cars because they "steer" the wheels against the rail, but if you're only shoving a few cars at a time, it shouldn't be a problem. Just don't buy any more of those cars in the future.

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Sunday, November 1, 2020 11:06 AM

Lastspikemike

The various coupler numbers Kadee uses are to denote these combinations. There are nine. There is also a range of "scale " couplers but I would not use them on old rolling stock.

I originally started with converting to knuckles when the only real choice was the venerable #5.  Since then, the smaller "scale" #58 has been released, along with the corresponding whisker models.  Contrary to some other modelers, I do use the scale couplers on older retrofits, and I think they look better and work just fine.  In case you're wondering, the larger couplers seem to be completely interoperable with the scale couplers.

Another Kadees product that should be mentioned is the small fiber washers.  The go on the truck bolsters to raise the car height just a small amount.  This lets you get body-mounted couplers adjusted when they need to come up a smidge.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by dknelson on Sunday, November 1, 2020 10:35 AM

While it is possible to replace truck mounted horn-hook couplers with truck mounted Kadees (or Kadee clones), don't do it.  Jim Kelly's N Scale Insight column in MR (now ended) frequently railed against truck mounted couplers in N and the problems they caused but they are problematic in HO too.

There is a certain "learn by doing" element to making the switch.  Athearns are easy because the same coupler draft gear box and metal snap-on cover can be used, and usually the coupler height comes out OK (but I agree, lay in a supply of the offset coupler shaft options).  Somewhat more challenging are Model Die Casting cars with the metal frame, because it is possible (getting rarer fortunately) to be conducting electricty through the couplers and depending on other situations, creating a short circuit.  The new plastic Kadees which did not exist when I did my conversions would be helpful here, for example in Athearn locomotives as noted above.

For cars that had truck mounted couplers, again a variety of situations arise.   Sometimes you need to shave away some underframe detail for the coupler draft gear box; sometimes a shim or piece of styrene needs to be introduced so that the coupler draft gear box has a solid and level place to be attached to.  None of the work is hard, but sometimes it gets futzy.

Again the hardest challenges are with metal underframe cars which are now rare but in the days of Model Die Casting, Penn Line, the Mantua/Tyco cars circa 1960, Ulrich, and some other makes were fairly common.  Sometimes you drill a hole. Kadee makes or made a nylon screw and nut set for the purpose.

The very biggest challenge is cars which had body mounts and have NO place to attach the draft gear box to.  Some tank cars and hoppers/covered hoppers are in this class.  Again sometimes you have to attach an (unprototypical) piece of styrene so that the box has something to attach to other than thin air!

I did a lot of these horn hook to Kadee conversions back when I had an apartment and no layout and I actually came to enjoy the challenges that would arise now and then.  

Dave Nelson

 

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Posted by nealknows on Sunday, November 1, 2020 5:38 AM

This Kadee conversion chart for HO scale cars and engines should help you. 

https://www.kadee.com/documents/holist.pdf

 

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Posted by TheFlyingScotsman on Sunday, November 1, 2020 5:34 AM

Something I did which may or may not suit you was when I was running 35 coal hoppers I had one 5 car cut that I'd made from a Blue Box kit in the 80's so being lazy or efficient (you choose) I replaced the wheels as folk have said and one coupler with Kadees on 1 end of 2 cars then the 5 ran semi-permanently coupled so to speak - Kadees facing outward. Worked for me. I just wanted a long string rolling by with the minimum of effort. The horn-hooks are reliable if nasty looking but the black colour in a black train was fine. 

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Sunday, November 1, 2020 12:29 AM

Horn hooks (also known as X2F) are still available, Walthers has some.

I would go with KD #148 and other whisker couplers since it's one less piece to assemble.  But in truth KD #5's are not that hard to do.

You might want to do a transition car or two with KD on one end and horn hook on the other.  That way you can run all your cars while transitioning.

While you're replacing the couplers consider upgrading your wheelsets or trucks.

Paul

If you're having fun, you're doing it the right way.
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Posted by MisterBeasley on Saturday, October 31, 2020 10:10 PM

I second the suggestions for the Kadee coupler height gauge and the coupler adjustment pliers.

I also noticed you have old Athearn engines.  I have a few of those, too.  One thing you should note is that the frames are electrically "hot,"  so you have to be careful with metal couplers like Kadees.  I used Kadee draft gear boxes to mount engine couplers, as the boxes are plastic and insulate the couplers from the frame.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by peahrens on Saturday, October 31, 2020 9:20 PM

My go-to is the whisker Kadee #148.  You can buy the #14 pack which has 25 pair, which go for $1.44 (plus shipping) per car.  

https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/search?search_query_adv=kadee+14

You can buy a 2-pair pack to also get a few coupler boxes or buy the boxes separately.  

I also keep a 2-pack of longer shank and shorter shank on hand in case I want to use them; e.g., for an optimum spacing between consisted diesels.  In rare cases I have needed a unique model; e.g., on the front of a diesel cab unit.  In that case, I look up the needed model on the Kadee site and order it.

Occasionally you will want to do a quick fix to a drooping "air hose" by bending it (sometimes there is a more appropriate solution).  I suggest buying the Kadee coupler hose bending pliers (easier than using other pliers), as well as the coupler height gauge.

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Saturday, October 31, 2020 8:07 PM

I had a lot of 1960s rolling stock, which I stored for decades and finally brought out.  Along with the old horn hook coupler, I also replaced the old plastic wheels with metal Intermountain wheels.  I got rid of the truck-mounted couplers and used body-mounted coupler boxes from Kadee instead.

It was less of an effort to just do all of this at once.  I also replaced a number of truck frames.  What I ended up with was a better running, smoother operating fleet.

Through this thread, you will notice one word that gets used a lot: Kadee.  They make the best couplers, by far.  I've also replaced a lot of junk plastic knuckle couplers with Kadees.  I have NEVER had to replace a Kadee coupler.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, October 31, 2020 6:43 PM

 The best place to go is the Kadee web site. They have a link with a list of pretty much every piece of rollign stock ever made in HO since Kadee first appeared, and which of their couplers fits it. Diffucilty factors on older equipment are all over the place - some is really easy, other requires some reworking, or out and out conversion to body mounted (which is a good idea regardless - truck mounted couplers are one of the big reasons you get derailments when shoving a cut of cars, especially through turnouts - the force is transmitted through the couple which, when truck mounted, forces the truck to skew and more easily pick the points.),

 In the cases where one of the Kadee types with the sheet brinze spring is used, like the #5, the newer whisker type are easier to install. One less piece to try to manage when putting it all together. There isn't, however, a whisker version made for every possible coupler yet. 

                                --Randy

 


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Posted by cowman on Saturday, October 31, 2020 6:38 PM

Most couplers are easy to replace.  Those held in by a screw either have a cover that the screw holds on or the box is already formed and when you take the screw out, the coupler can be pulled.  Athearn models usually have a metal cover that snaps over two tabs. just be careful not to damage the tabs.  (If you do, you can replace the box if you don't have luck gluing the cover on. For truck mounted couplers most folks cut off the coupler and purchase coupler boxes and glue them in place.

A Kadee #5 or #148 will replace most couplers on older models.  (148's are easieer in my opinion.)  Kadee has a list on their site that lists all rolling stock and the correct replacement coupler.  They even have them for locos and the modifications you  have to do to get replacements in.  Even show how to mount operating couplers on the front of steam locos that do not come with them.

Good luck,

Richard

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Replacing Horn & hook couplers with knuckle couplers
Posted by RealGomer on Saturday, October 31, 2020 5:01 PM

My layout uses my rolling stock from the 1960s and 1980s. It's mostly Atlas & Tyco with some Athearn motive power. Since H&H appears to be no longer used, how difficult is it to replace the older style couplers? Some of the stock has truck mounted coupler and some has body mounted. How does one decide wich type or size of knuckles to use? Are whiskers better or user choice? Thank you.

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