The pushbutton ones do seem to have some sort of preset, usually around 3, so somehow the up/down buttons work as both temperature adjustment as well as cycle between presets. Unless there is another button not readily visible in pictures. I suppose I could get used to that, with one preset being the lowest setting and another being my usual soldering temperature. But still, one simple knob, with or without a digital display, is just so much easier to use. Well, mine also has a power switch on the side.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker... even though my model was discontinued not long after I bought it, and replaced with ones with LED readouts and buttons to set the temperature (oh the joys of the market (read, silly people) demanding pushbuttons and LEDs where a simple knob is easier and quicker...)...
Perhaps the only good 'use' for push buttons in temperature control would be to set different default temperature ranges (which could then be fine-tuned by the knob) if I wanted to switch up different types of solder in one session. Since the element tracks knob change very fast, and the display thermocouple (wherever it is) slews equally fast (but stable when selected) I for one wouldn't miss preset capability. And I certainly don't miss 'tuning' temperature with buttons any more than I don't prefer it with FM radio ... where, again, rotary knobs just are more satisfactory to me in most ways.
I know there is an X-tronic, that's what he has. That's definitely not a Xytronic unit.
I will say, Chip's first picture in the first post, that thing looks a little how ya doing, but it does match the color scheme and style of the newer Xtronic units.
Both (and many other direct knockoff brands) claim compatibility with Hakko, at least for tips. Mine included, although it appears Xtronic, like Xytronic, has a complete line of their own tips for these (my extras are all Xytronic branded, not Hakko tips). The thing is, when I bought mine, it cost $40 and came with the copper/brass wool cleaner and stand. The equivalent Hakko was over $100, and came with the traditional wet sponge. Even if mine failed and I had to buy a new one int he time I've had it - I'd still be ahead. But it's still working just fine. And even though my model was discontinued not long after I bought it, and replaced with ones with LED readouts and buttons to set the temperature (oh the joys of the market (read, silly people) demanding pushbuttons and LEDs where a simple knob is easier and quicker...), tips, heaters, and even the complete handpiece are still available as spare parts - soldering stations may be one of the last real bastions of repairing something instead of throwing it out and buying a new one.
rrinkerI think you missed a letter, getting the x-tronic instead of xytronic.
https://xtronicusa.com/
From what I can make out in the pictures with tired myopia on a phone, what he has does look a bit more like a XYtronic product:
http://www.xytronic-usa.com/shop/category.aspx?catid=8
Whether this is something he needs to know to get proper-fitting aftermarket tips I can't say ... but it couldn't hurt to know.
Thank you for the update. Good to know they fit. I find it odd that you can't get good joints with the fine tip. I have that same station and have been using the fine tip for everything. Including making my turnouts, and in the same way you are making yours. It has always worked very well. But! Since you have it working well, then go with what works.
I'd like to see a picture of your turnout, to "compare notes" on your construction and mine if that's ok? My construction time per unit is about 4 hours at the bench, starting with PC ties and new rail. Plus installation on the layout. It flies by! Dan
BetaMax--more good advice. Thanks.
Randy--I tried the nut (it's still called a nut if it has finger ridges instead of hex shaped, right?) and it seemed tight, but something didn't seem right. I took the tip out, put it back and tightened the nut. It seemed more solid.
When I heated it, it easily accepted solder.
Good call.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
That a brand new tip in the soldering station won't accept solder unless you dip it in the tinny paste probably means that regardless of the setting, it's not actually getting anywhere near that hot. Even if not perfectly shiny, solder should melt on the tip, unless it's badly lackened. Either the heating element isn't heating up like it should, or there is poor physical contact somewhere between the heating element and the tip so the heat never makes it to the tip.
I think you missed a letter, getting the x-tronic instead of xytronic.
Those are very poor solder joints. They should be smooth and shiny, plus there is too much solder.
To solder joints like that you need a chisel tip, which should be about as wide as the tie. A larger tip has more thermal mass, so it won't lose heat quickly. If you are using a Fastracks fixture it should fit into the slot holding the tie.
Be sure to polish the tie's copper surface and clean the rail! Corrosion and oil will impede your progress.
To solder the rail, apply flux to both sides of the tie/rail junction, tin the tip, use it to press the foot of the rail against the tie, and apply a small amount of solder to the other side of the rail. It should immediately melt and wick under the rail. Flux follows heat, and solder follows flux.
Remove the iron and you are done. There should be very little solder needed.
You can probably clean these joints up and try again. Add some flux, and use a solder sucker or wick to remove the solder. Once you have most of it off, add some flux and try to reflow the joint.
A trick with a Fastracks jig: Place thin stipwood into the tie slots to raise the tie up a little. Makes it easier to solder them, due to better contact with the rail. Enough to raise the tie, but keep the rail in its groove. For some reason the slots are cut a little deeper than required.
Tom Yes - Use the (wider) chisel tip, Chip. You want to maximize the heat transfer. What you show in the photo is a cold solder joint because the soldering iron isn't heating all surfaces hot enough to melt the solder.
Yes - Use the (wider) chisel tip, Chip. You want to maximize the heat transfer. What you show in the photo is a cold solder joint because the soldering iron isn't heating all surfaces hot enough to melt the solder.
I ordered a variety set. It will arrive Monday. I guess I can't put away the 40W RS just yet. I have to turn some cookie dough into cookies.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
betamaxAdd little flux and it works great. Nothing is more frustrating than trying to solder something and it just isn't working. I learned a long time ago that old solder with dried up flux just added more problems than it solved.
Adding flux must be the secret then.
I got the new needle tips and am using them on my soldering station. The tip will not accept solder unless you dip the tip in the tinning paste first. Let it set a minute, and it won't accept solder.
Soldering rail to copper-top ties during Fast Tracks assembly, set at 700F, with 8mm/.031" 63/37 solder, a toothpick tip of flux, the solder joint looked like cookie dough before the oven. No change at 750F.
At no point did the solder liquify, except when applying solder to the tip after tinning paste.
Am I right that I probably need a bigger tip?
OldEngineman beta wrote: "Despite what many will claim, solder does have a shelf life. After a few years the lead begins to react with the flux, which becomes less effective. Using fresh rosin flux will get around that issue, but flux has a shelf life as well." Better not tell that to my roll of solder and can of flux. I bought both of them back in the 1970's -- and I'm still using them. Used a little today. They did sit almost-unused in my toolbox for about 42 years...
beta wrote: "Despite what many will claim, solder does have a shelf life. After a few years the lead begins to react with the flux, which becomes less effective. Using fresh rosin flux will get around that issue, but flux has a shelf life as well."
Better not tell that to my roll of solder and can of flux. I bought both of them back in the 1970's -- and I'm still using them. Used a little today.
They did sit almost-unused in my toolbox for about 42 years...
KevinSounds like you caught a good bounce. Good luck is good luck. -Kevin
You got that right.
OldEnginemanBetter not tell that to my roll of solder and can of flux. I bought both of them back in the 1970's -- and I'm still using them. Used a little today. They did sit almost-unused in my toolbox for about 42 years...
All my old stuff is working. It's just not right for the application.
SpaceMouseHa Ha! I must have accidently ordered 63/37 solder because that's what arrived.
Sounds like you caught a good bounce.
Good luck is good luck.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Ha Ha! I must have accidently ordered 63/37 solder because that's what arrived. (I was looking specifically for 60/40.)
Southgate 2Hey, Chip, Do us a fave and let us know if those Hakko tips do in fact work on the Xtronic station?
I haven't fired it up yet, but they look identical and slip right on.
rrinker Outerbridge's Sherry Pepper Sauce - I had to look that one up, and I am now looking for some - I love hot sauces, I have a rather large collection. It may be a good thing that issues these days prevented the usual hot pepper festival held locally here, as I usually spend a significant amount of money adding to and/or replenishing my collection. --Randy
Outerbridge's Sherry Pepper Sauce - I had to look that one up, and I am now looking for some - I love hot sauces, I have a rather large collection. It may be a good thing that issues these days prevented the usual hot pepper festival held locally here, as I usually spend a significant amount of money adding to and/or replenishing my collection.
<Off topic>
Randy,
If you want the heat but leave out the salt, try the crushed habanero chili flakes from SpicesInc.com. They are actually located not too far from you up in Elysburg.
I really enjoy fresh habaneros but the stores around my area no longer sell them individually - only in packs and at twice the price per lb. The crushed habaneros give you both the heat and the fruitness of the fresh habaneros and you can adjust the "dosage" to whatever heat level you prefer.
And it's portable, too. I've even brought the jar in with me to a restaurant or at work.
Tom
</Off topic>
Tom Chip, I just use rosin soldering flux, which should be the exact same flux found in rosin-core solder. I use it for everything electronic. As mentioned in my earlier post, you don't need much because it spreads when it's heated. Generally, just a small dab on the end of a toothpick is enough. Otherwise, you'll be cleaning off the abundance of melted flux from your decoders or PCB boards. And you don't need flux for keeping your soldering tips clean. The glob of cooled solder will protect the plating on the tip from oxidizing. Whenever you heat up your soldering iron to use it again, just wipe off the excess then re-tin the tip with fresh solder and you're good to go. Tom
Chip,
I just use rosin soldering flux, which should be the exact same flux found in rosin-core solder. I use it for everything electronic.
As mentioned in my earlier post, you don't need much because it spreads when it's heated. Generally, just a small dab on the end of a toothpick is enough. Otherwise, you'll be cleaning off the abundance of melted flux from your decoders or PCB boards.
And you don't need flux for keeping your soldering tips clean. The glob of cooled solder will protect the plating on the tip from oxidizing. Whenever you heat up your soldering iron to use it again, just wipe off the excess then re-tin the tip with fresh solder and you're good to go.
Good advice.
RandyI use the same flux for everything. GERN, of course...etc...
A lot of good info there. Thanks.
OvermodSorry for the salty technical talk. I get carried away sometimes.
It's okay. Keeps me honest and makes me work to fill into the blanks.
OvermodMy advice about choosing 'fitness to purpose' is to browse a couple of the specialty 'soldering stores' on the Web, see what they offer and how they propose to use it, and ask pointed questions of their technical-support people. Keep in mind that there are no stupid questions, especially at the early stages of learning, and many of the problems and issues do, in fact, already have reasonable solutions.
But there are stupid people.
betamaxDespite what many will claim, solder does have a shelf life. After a few years the lead begins to react with the flux, which becomes less effective. Using fresh rosin flux will get around that issue, but flux has a shelf life as well. Soldering is a skill, and it takes some practice. With the right tools and materials, and clean workpieces, it isn't hard once you get the hang of it.
Thanks for the tip and encouragement.
I had to look it up, too. Me, too. All of it.
rrebell I have flux and solder from a long time ago. Both work great. Found out maintaing the tip is #1 for a good joint, #2 is making sure tip is up to temp before you start, #3 always use flux (as most of us don't solder enough to have the rosin core viable).
I have flux and solder from a long time ago. Both work great. Found out maintaing the tip is #1 for a good joint, #2 is making sure tip is up to temp before you start, #3 always use flux (as most of us don't solder enough to have the rosin core viable).
Thanks. I can't see using all the stuff I've got. My dad must have done some weird stuff with solder. He worked on his own boat.
dbduck Have not read through all the responses but you should always check to make sure the tip is tight and has good physical connection with heating element. It doesnt hurt to remove the tip occasionally & clean threads etc & reassemble, corrosion between tip & elemnt will cause heat loss between the two
Have not read through all the responses but you should always check to make sure the tip is tight and has good physical connection with heating element. It doesnt hurt to remove the tip occasionally & clean threads etc & reassemble, corrosion between tip & elemnt will cause heat loss between the two
Good tips!
SpaceMouse Randy and Tom--Good information. I'll probably have questions, just not tonight. I went through my solder--I have some left from long ago, and I inherted a bunch from my dad when he passed. I have various sizes of 60/40 (most of it largish diameter and two others of curiosity. 1) a .010 62/36/2 solder by Radio Shack for electronics. 2) a silver solder that has a diameter the size of my little finger. Okay, it's more like 1/8 inch.
Randy and Tom--Good information. I'll probably have questions, just not tonight.
I went through my solder--I have some left from long ago, and I inherted a bunch from my dad when he passed. I have various sizes of 60/40 (most of it largish diameter and two others of curiosity.
1) a .010 62/36/2 solder by Radio Shack for electronics.
2) a silver solder that has a diameter the size of my little finger. Okay, it's more like 1/8 inch.
SpaceMouseThe Cardas quad-eutectic really jumps in price.
It should work well for very precise fabrication, the sort where you use small chips of solid precisely where they will 'wet out' to a perfect braze layer with only a thin visible edge between the two pieces being joined. Or in little balls for ball-grid-array computer chips, or the surface-mount devices that require small but very good attachment ... or decoder wire attachment.
A point to remember is that a very little mass of this solder may go a very long way when used correctly or kept for 'special' work. Think of it as like the Outerbridge's Sherry Pepper Sauce of solders...
I'm still not wrong. Faster joint formation and lower temperatures means a rank amateur like myself is less likely to destroy things.
If I were not distracted with other things, I'd look into getting one of the LaserStar freehand laser rigs (which sell 'list' for somewhere in the $800 range), Those do a wonderful job of flowing solder right where it's wanted while leaving adjacent components virtually untouched -- and with proper eutectics, allowing the 'made' joint and its neighboring structures to be promptly quenched without impairing the quality. (The device can also be used for fusion welding of small sections, and for marking.)
Sorry for the salty technical talk. I get carried away sometimes. We've had a couple of discussions regarding SMDs and other small fabrication in recent threads and thought it was more well known to DCC aficionados than it probably is.
One good rosin 'remover' back in the day was a combination of ethanol (in these troubled times, the active ingredient in Everclear) denatured not with hexane but cyclohexane. You would not casually use this to deflux something at the bench! And in the days of soldering stations with hot air preheat handpieces, you would have the heat gun ready to hand to ensure that every little tittle of solvent was well evaporated from, say, an electronics board, before you tried testing it under power. Solvent does get in under those little SMD devices, and dissolved rosin or other material, too if you let it, and at modern tiny currents and low voltages this can cause more problems than in typical model-railroad construction up until recently.
My advice about choosing 'fitness to purpose' is to browse a couple of the specialty 'soldering stores' on the Web, see what they offer and how they propose to use it, and ask pointed questions of their technical-support people. Keep in mind that there are no stupid questions, especially at the early stages of learning, and many of the problems and issues do, in fact, already have reasonable solutions.
1) a .010 62/36/2 solder by Radio Shack for electronics. 2% is silver
2)a "silver-bearing" lead-free solder that has a diameter the size of my little finger. Okay, it's more like 1/8 inch.
SMD here is surface mount device.
I use the same flux for everything. GERN, of course. No, just kidding. I have a water soulable brand called Solder Safe. But I don't use it everywhere. Soldering a feeder to rail? Use it. Solder rails together? Use it. Solder a component with a large lead, more of a solder lug than a PCB mount terminal? I'll use some. Soder resitros, capacitors, LEDs, etc. on circuit boards? What's in the solder is enough, I find, rather than getting flux all over my PCB. Still needs to be cleaned off afterwards. Soldering decoder wires? Don't use it. Again, for the small size of the wire, the flux in the solder is normally enough. I rarely put any flux on the tip of my iron. Keeping a coating of solder between uses, adn using the brass sponge thing to wipe it clean menas it is almost always shiny and clean - I'm still using the same tip it came with when I bought this thing something like 12 or 13 years ago. I've occasionally used others, different size/shape ones for different jobs, but the default one is the same one it came with.
For heavier jobs, like soldering feeders to the bus, I have a big soldering gun, 150 watts or so it claims. And I use thicker solder, still 63/37. For electronics/decoders I have .010" solder, for the bigger stuff, it's like .032".
I use the same style of flux, too - the paste. When I bought it, I also got some of their gel, but never really used it, it's too runny. The past stays where you put it. And since it's water soluable, if I need somethign thinner, mixing some with distilled water makes any thinner consistency I might want. Though I haven't really hit a use case for gel or liquid.
Overmod SpaceMouse You want 63:37 because the melting point is lower. So you use less heat. And less chance of melting the plastic on those little blue DPDT switches with six posts. And on anything else you don't particularly want to melt. The point of a eutectic is not the temperature at which it starts and finishes freezing, but in (a) the effective speed and (b) the metallurgical composition of the joint formation. Think for a moment what a 'cold-soldered joint' actually is, and why it is unpleasant, then think what a good solder joint is. The first point of the eutectic (and yes, the fractional-composition is still better than the integer approximation in some respects!) is that it freezes completely at a sharp and well-defined temperature -- there is no prospect of mechanical damage if the joint moves or there is any differential contraction across the 'sludge' in a solidifying non-eutectic joint. Meanwhile what is happening during that sludging is that some of the alloy is dissociating into crystals of different substances, with the matrix of 'what's left' finally hardening around them. This is not going to provide an optimal bond to even a clean substrate, or give proper internal structure. The Cardas quad-eutectic is carefully formulated to have this sharp eutectic behavior for more than two alloying components, for better physical properties of the joints so made as well as 'different' solidus temperature.
SpaceMouse You want 63:37 because the melting point is lower. So you use less heat. And less chance of melting the plastic on those little blue DPDT switches with six posts. And on anything else you don't particularly want to melt.
The point of a eutectic is not the temperature at which it starts and finishes freezing, but in (a) the effective speed and (b) the metallurgical composition of the joint formation.
Think for a moment what a 'cold-soldered joint' actually is, and why it is unpleasant, then think what a good solder joint is. The first point of the eutectic (and yes, the fractional-composition is still better than the integer approximation in some respects!) is that it freezes completely at a sharp and well-defined temperature -- there is no prospect of mechanical damage if the joint moves or there is any differential contraction across the 'sludge' in a solidifying non-eutectic joint.
Meanwhile what is happening during that sludging is that some of the alloy is dissociating into crystals of different substances, with the matrix of 'what's left' finally hardening around them. This is not going to provide an optimal bond to even a clean substrate, or give proper internal structure.
The Cardas quad-eutectic is carefully formulated to have this sharp eutectic behavior for more than two alloying components, for better physical properties of the joints so made as well as 'different' solidus temperature.
OvermodThere are probably better methods than using soaps... the rosin itself needs to be converted to a 'soap' with alkali so it can be scrubbed/rinsed off.
I had two types of flux in my stuff from 15 years ago. Water-based and petroleum-based. The water-based had dried out so I ordered more. But I've still been working using the petroleum-based. I figured detergent breaks down petroleum products. I didn't want the petroleum products gathering gunk.
I sound like I'm talking about plumbing supplies.
Much of the discussion of rinsing rosin effectively is concerned with electronics soldering, particularly with SMDs and very small voltages and currents where even final rinse with deionized water requires very careful and sometimes extended drying. Much of that discussion doesn't apply to 'structural' soldering for good electrical and logic conductivity... but be aware of context.
Although in context, it doesn't matter, I didn't get the SMD anagram, so I looked it up. There are 92. With electronics as schema, there were 3:
Surface-mounted device
Servo motor drive
Surface-mounted diode.
I elminated the diode because of context and added small micro devices, which is I guess, belongs in the Department of Redundancy Department.
What is your background? Science or engineering?
Removing rosin with solvent can be a pain because of redeposited film. Note that water-based rinses will affect this little unless the rosin is saponified or the solvent is miscible with water; the tradition in electronics is to use a flood of solvent and agitation to carry it away.
Should I be using a petoleum-based flux in Model Railroading?
Much of this is expeditiously solved by using a good no-clean in the first place, especially if using RA or RMA where the 'rosin' is more a vehicle for active ingredients than an active blanketing or oxygen-scavenging material itself.
Quite an education. I know now that there are a 5 types of flux. R, RMA, RA, NC, and WS. The water-based solvent is obviously WS. The petroleum-based flux can does not specify which it is, but it contains zinc cloride so that would make it RA or RMA.
So, let's cut to the chase. You can be specific with brands if you like. What type flux would you use for track-work?
Feeder Wires?
LED lighting, signals, etc.?
Decoders and other electronics?
Itty bitty wiring in locomotives?
Keeping your tip clean?
Or is there a one-size fits all here?
SpaceMouseYou want 63:37 because the melting point is lower. So you use less heat. And less chance of melting the plastic on those little blue DPDT switches with six posts. And on anything else you don't particularly want to melt.