Hi all,
many of my locomotives have smoke capability. I've never used this feature because I think the residue will fall over scenery and tracks leaving a dirt film.
is that a valid concern or am I worried about nothing?
Gary
As usually practiced, smoke is a toy train feature, not particularly prototypical in a number of annoying respects; as you've noticed, many of these involve where the smoke goes after it no longer produces the stack effects. Furthermore the great majority of smoke generators will damage themselves if operated 'dry' even once for a comparatively short time. I have never had a use for it, even though I figured out how to make the puffs look prototypical coming out, as you can only run it long enough for a few photographs before the 'secondhand smoke' concerns start to become annoyingly evident. Photoshop is now thousands of times better!
If 'collector resale value' isn't a factor, remove the smoke generator and whatever goofy puffing arrangement is in there. (what might replace it is a cube or similar speaker and baffle if you do sound...)
IMO, a valid concern. It's a lot easier to mute F8 than to clean up the residue left by those unrealistic smoke units. I would rather just imagine the bellowing smoke exhaust on my layout and leave it at that...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Nothing more unprototypicle than a clean smokestack. Love the smokers!
Remember all the smoke you might see in a running steam loco is more often than not all for show - a real fireman back in the day wouldn't get very far if they fired dirty like that all the time.
There are some large scale locos that have steam generators of sufficient volume that they will show steam at allt he right places, like the whistle, the safeties whent hey lift, and the cylinder cocks when starting off. They look pretty good, but unless they are using some new type of material, the residue could get bad, very quickly, with that volume.
Most of the locos in HO, like BLI, have a switch to turn off the smoke generator, so there's no need to really remove it to prevent damage if it's kept switched off. However, the space used up by the generator and the fan unit that makes it shuff COULD fit a decent sized speaker so that you could have at least SOME of the sound coming fromt he loco and not all from the tender. From a distance, you don't notice, but up close, you have a silent engine go past and then comes the chuffing tender.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
cold stealNothing more unprototypical than a clean smokestack.
Of course if you're modeling slackadaisical operation with unwashed mine-run coal (or PRR T1s most of the time!) you'll have a legitimate desire for plenty of smoke ... and the need for a tavern-grade electrostatic precipitator to get rid of the exhaust once it has ceased prototypically puffing out and starts to hang heavy in the layout-room air...
Of course if you're only operating for a couple of minutes and need the room scented, those specialty aromatherapy smoke fluids are just the thing!
The residue is one problem, and the smell is another. As a non-smoker myself, I don't care for it, and some others don't either.
I was at the big Springfield show one year, and MTH has a large booth with active smoking engines. This was, of course, a very large room, but the smoke smell was evident everywhere. Other vendors with nearby booths were not happy with their locations.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
cold steal Nothing more unprototypicle than a clean smokestack. Love the smokers!
Not always... per a popular DL&W RR promotion:
Says Phoebe Snow, about to go,
upon a trip to Buffalo,
"My gown stays white, from morn till night,
upon the Road of Anthracite."
Jim
THAT is up to your wife!
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I'm not a smoke expert, and I'm not an engineer, but I kinda remember reading that the type and quality of burning material affects what is coming out of the stack. And of course there is the level of effort involved (e.g., long coal drag going up a long hill), and the capacity of the engine.
As a modeler, I don't use the smoke function for the same reasons mentioned above. However, one of the guys at the club made quite an impression during an open-door event with one of this smoking engines, including the modelers in the room. It was puffing in a really convincing way. It made a mess, but it was fun!
Simon
snjroyI'm not a smoke expert, and I'm not an engineer, but I kinda remember reading that the type and quality of burning material affects what is coming out of the stack. And of course there is the level of effort involved (e.g., long coal drag going up a long hill), and the capacity of the engine.
I can give some pointers off-list to anyone interested in modeling prototypical exhaust, including some ideas how to control it proportional to load. Here is not the place for a theoretical discussion.
All of the smoking models I've seen make me think that there's an LPB in the smokebox, just havin' a smoke...not to pick on the poor beasts, but smoking model locomotives are in same league as giraffe cars, in my opinion - toy-town.
Wayne
I disagree with the general census. Smoke may not look realistic, but it looks cool. Use it if it adds enjoyment to your overall experience.
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There are a few concerns. In my limited experience with smoke, I dont notice it getting on the track/scenery much. However, it DOES get on the engine. (loves to leak depending on the brand) I've purchased a few used engines where the owner clearly used the @#$% out of the smoke unit. The entire engine was shiny. Had to disassemble it all and clean everything with warm soapy water.
NEVER store an engine sideways with fluid still inside!!
In most cases, if you use it sparingly like I do, where I only use it every once in a while when visitors come over, you should be fine. My engines still look brand new.
The smoke isnt harmful when breathed in, iirc its just flavored glycerin.
Most engines would be improved if you removed the smoke unit and replaced it with a thick chunk of lead. Its a trade off in design.
Enjoy!
Charles
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Modeling the Santa Fe & Pennsylvania in HO
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLb3FRqukolAtnD1khrb6lQ
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Every smoke generator I have ever seen in use doesn't really capture the realistic plume of a steam cloud. They all look like a straight line of hazy oil, ascending straight out of the stack and looking hazy. It reminds me less of a steam train, and more of some guy vaping a Juul... its not a look I'd want on my model trains.Plus the smell can get annoying too, I can always tell where the Lionel and American Flyer guys set up at a train show, since they are often in their own room full of smoke units and it just smells off. I have theorized before using scents of sage and pine in future/dream model railroad layouts to simulate the smells of the natural environment the trains would run in, and I figure a smoke generator would just compete with any "themed-aromas" and overwhelm them (also having been in operating sessions that go on for a few hours... there is a reason I'd want some pine smell in there since things can turn pretty rank smelling fast from the odors of the guests) I'd say leave the smoke for the prototype and the live steam guys.
Smoke units are banned at my club. At an Open House, we had a portable G-scale layout set up in our 6300+ sq. ft. train room while our new HO layout was first under construction and not running yet. The G-scalers set their smoke units on max and ran them continuously for the 6 hours the show was open. Many of us had burning eyes and sore throats that day. Think about it: all that smoke is burning oil. That can't be healthy.Since then, the club passed a rule that banned all smoke units from the club.
Personally, I don't like smoke units either. When I think of smoke coming from steam engines, it's black or dark gray. The HO models only produce white smoke. Sure, real steam engines can have all-white exhaust, but it has to be winter to see that.
xboxtravis7992 I have theorized before using scents of sage and pine in future/dream model railroad layouts to simulate the smells of the natural environment the trains would run in, and I figure a smoke generator would just compete with any "themed-aromas" and overwhelm them
At least in HO (where smoke units put out a lot less smoke than in large scale) the claim about smoke units getting residue all over the layout and other rolling stock is nothing but pure hogwash. It's about as accurate as the evening network news.
Actually when I played in large scale there was minimal smoke residue ever...perhaps a few drops or spots on the tender, that were easily cleaned off.
I had an operating smoke unit steamer as a child with the same Seuthe smoke unit in it that I believe you can still buy and install today. I ran that operating smoking steamer a whole lot--enough that Dad replaced the smoke unit a few times. It never left ANY discernable residue on my scenery or adjacent rolling stock.
I have owned and operated both MTH and BLI steam engines that have operating smoke units, including the big articulateds which smoke A LOT.
I have NEVER noticed ANY residue on ANY other rolling stock or on ANY scenery.
Sure, if you tip the engine, you can get some smoke fluid on it, and in the case of BLI steamers, the smoke fluid does tend to leak out on the engine. Eventually, in about 6 to 8 months time of not operating the smoke unit, it will simply evaporate leaving virtually no evidence it was ever laying on the engine.
OR I have been able to clean it off to pristine as new condition with a couple wet Q tip swabs and ordinary liquid soap. If you spill a lot of smoke fluid, it may take a little longer to clean because it likes to lay in the crevice between the top of the BLI boiler and the bottom piece, typically located at the running board level.
The smell--sure my wife and kids have allergies and my wife doesn't really like it when we operate the MTH and BLI steamers with the smoke unit turned on--but we sometimes do and it's not that bad.
I've researched and read online that it's basically scented mineral oil and harmless. Besides the smell just plain "bothering" some folks who have allergies, inhaling the smoke in moderate quantities is not considered to be harmful at all. My wife and kids all have asthma. It did NOT bother them in that way.
I do find the aftermarket Vanilla scented smoke, or the Christmas Pine scent, to be much better/more tolerable than the BLI and MTH factory scent.
Also--you can actually use the smoke fluid to clean track and to clean filth off of models without damaging the paint--though I do prefer electrically conductive lubricant for track cleaning to the smoke fluid. However, both will work adequately to clean track. So does rubbing alcohol. (Rubbing alcohol will damage some paint finishes).
How many of you do your own painting? I bet the paint on your skin and fumes of Scalecoat I and Floquil are way worse for you than any smoke.
Then there's the glues that we all use, which in my case, more than using a tiny amount for a simple repair does cause me to get an attack of episcleritis in my eyes, which is treatable by prescription medication. (Sheldon--if you are reading this--this is ONE reason why I prefer to buy RTR equipment. I can no longer assemble stuff with CA or similar glue without having issues.)
John
Overmod xboxtravis7992 I have theorized before using scents of sage and pine in future/dream model railroad layouts to simulate the smells of the natural environment the trains would run in, and I figure a smoke generator would just compete with any "themed-aromas" and overwhelm them You do know that sage and pine-scented smoke fluid is a 'thing', right?
You do know that sage and pine-scented smoke fluid is a 'thing', right?
cold stealNothing more unprototypicle than a clean smokestack. Love the smokers!
OvermodYou must not know much about prototype locomotives
That is kind of a harsh response, and uncalled for, to a guy that does not post much in here.
His comment was simply that clean smokestacks are not realistic, and that is true. Smokestacks are dirty. He is correct.
Then he said he loves the smokers. That is fine, and addressed the OP's topic.
What if he would have said "clean smoklestacks sure look real to me, turn the smoke off"?
I'll bet that would have brought on another Overmod chest-thumping-big-word-response that probably would have begun with "You must not know much about prototype locomotives" as well.
Not every post calls for you to exploit an opportunity to insult another member of the forum.
Trainman440I disagree with the general census. Smoke may not look realistic, but it looks cool. Use it if it adds enjoyment to your overall experience.
There is half of the OP's answer right there, and what everyone should do... Use it if it adds enjoyment to your overall experience.
+1
-Kevin
Living the dream.
No real call for ad hominems, even if ya do love using 'em.
He pontificated that real locomotives can't have visibly clear stacks. That is simply a crock, and no weaseling about hidden dirt changes that it is a crock.
Now I have also bent over backward to note that prototype-appearing exhaust is practicable, and that it can add realism if you can clear it away effectively, but that evidently carries little weight when know-it-all-ism gets free rein.
Remember that the discussion here is about commercial smoke generators in the first place, not prototype combustion practices or appearance which they cannot, and do not, replicate except perhaps by circumstance.
I apologize to the poster if what I said was interpreted as insulting... but his claim was wrong.
And your point about what 'everyone should do' is of course thumpingly correct.
Not that I have extensive experience or knowledge, but I have witnessed and inspected a range of working steam locomotives, and have video and stills showing them at different points of their respective runs. They all smoke, and of course they all steam. What we see emiting from the stack is a mixture of condensing steam and particulate matter from the combution processes, plus gasses from the latter. In my experience, only the top rim and a bit down the sides from the rim appears dirty, even if the paint is baked off and it looks dull grey or black.
When a steam locomotive is carefully fired, it doesn't produce much visible smoke. When the flues are cleaned, of course it's black, when the throttle is slammed closed, maybe due to slippage, it'll go black briefly, if the blower is opened insufficiently during pauses, it'll waft black. Under load, it will go black until the fireman notices and adjusts air or fuel to suit. But when I see properly fired steamers, there's almost nothing visible except for some condensing steam. It doesn't follow that it's ONLY steam, as suggested by another poster earlier. Otherwise there'd have to be a separate stack for the combustion gasses, at which the exhaust from the cylinders would be rendered ineffectual for drafting.
rrinkerMost of the locos in HO, like BLI, have a switch to turn off the smoke generator, so there's no need to really remove it to prevent damage if it's kept switched off.
Even when the switch (under the cab but sometimes behind the smokebox front) is switched off the smoke unit can still destroy itself.
IMG_8095_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
There's more than just a pair of wires going to the smoke generator.
IMG_8102_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
This happened to two of my BLI engines, a PRR J1 and a NYC Niagara. Neither engine was running but sitting idle on the layout. Both had the switch turned off which is my customary practice with all BLI "smokers" and both destroyed the decoder when the smoke unit "cooked".
BLI_smoke-crop by Edmund, on Flickr
In the case of the Niagara I replaced the smoke unit with a cube speaker and the J1 I added some weight.
As others have mentioned, I've been to train shows where the larger-scale folks were continually running smoke-filled engines and the floor surrounding those tables definitely were coated in a film of slippery oil.
No smoke for me
Cheers, Ed
They must be doing something different with the smoke units on today's locos. I have three older Bachmann engines with smokers, (late '90s to early 2000s) and I've never had any of the issues described above. I even have severe allergies and sensitivities to odors, and they've never caused me to have a reaction.
It's the volume - the old smokers were just heaters, we had a couple on some buildings in our old west town. Didn't turn it on very often. The new ones with the synchronized chuffs have a fan in there and bklow out huge plumes of smoke. But the smoke fluid is mostly the same thing - it's in the past always been mineral oil.
That is very strange the BLI smokers cooked themselves. Not sure how they got power with the slide switch turned off. The extra wires are for the fan drive, in addition to the heater wires for the smoke.
Back in the 80's I think it was, there used to be full page ads in MR for all sorts of sceneted smoke fluid from "Aromatic Airs". Some made sense - coal smoke, pine wood, etc. But they had some really wild ones as well - some I don't think would be terribly welcome in the train room, or are readily avaialble through other forms when you have typical model railroaders as visitors.
Thanks for all the great replies and perspectives. I've never really seen realistic looking. Smoke/steam coming from an HO locomotive.
Think I'll stay smoke free for now...
We all what what other observers think are inconsistencies. In my case, I really prefer the tinny sound in HO, even if it requires some suspension of disbelief because of the heavily clipped frequencies. But, I can't get by the 'smoke'. It simply doesn't look anything like real smoke, and I almost want to reach over to the nearest fire extinguisher and put it out.
I feel that the hobby encourages us to be more tolerant of the wide ranges of appreciation and offerings. We can all share that we love the layouts and making trains run reasonably reliably. None of us is obliged to love everything about what is offered on the market.
Prototypical or not, MANY folks find the smoke objectionable from a personal health standpoint.
Even at train shows a little of the stuff makes my eyes water, irritates my nose, makes me sneeze, and is generally unpleasant.
Run as much smoke as you want in private, but always consider the welfare of your guests and visitors.
Minetrain
My father fired steam for three years after high school to earn money for college. These are things he told me about locomotive smoke 1) Smoke showed you were not a professional - a professional fireman ran with a clean stack 2) Even in the Thirties there were smoke ordinances and government inspectors with their Ringlemann Charts enforced the law. The railroad got fined if they were found in violation and - guess what - "stuff runs downhill" Ringelmann scale - Wikipedia. 3) Smoke shows you are wasting fuel and was something Road Foremen of Engines were expected to keep an eye out for. Get spotted too many times and you'd "dance on the carpet" and maybe get a vacation without pay. 4) Many of the shots you see of engines laying down a smokescreen like a destroyer screening a battleship are staged, the photographer told the enginemen where he was a going to be - a good see-gar to both often greased the wheels (obviously not literally, slipping wheels was regarded as bad form) 5) Passengers objected to smoke - some lines even burned a higher grade of fuel in their passenger power to avoid it and we all know about the Lackawanna 6) The ideal was a light gray haze coming out of the stack. So did steam locomotives smoke - yes, but not as often or heavily as some seem to think.
gdelmoroI've never really seen realistic looking. Smoke/steam coming from an HO locomotive.
Yes, I've seen O scale steam engines that did a pretty realistic job of smoking, but doesn't seem to work in the smaller scales.